35W Bridge Collapses in Minneapolis - 8 Lanes, 4 in use

[LegendKiller]

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Originally posted by: TheTony

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: TheTony
Bridge specs

I'm no engineer, but it seems pretty obvious to me from those pics that this bridge was a terribly flawed design, completely non-redundant. I'm sure poor maintenance played a factor as well, but I think in the end the investigation will find that the bridge failed at one of the crucial points where the truss substructure secures to one of the concrete piers, possibly from something as simple as a single broken bolt.

Truly tragic. My deepest sympathies go out to the victims of this disaster and their families.

Seeing what I've seen, my initial reaction was to suspect the same thing - beginning at the point where the piling connects to the metal structure, on the south/west side of the river.

Originally posted by: daniel1113
After seeing the collapse video, I think it's pretty clear that the failure occurred at one of the truss/pylon connections.

Damned thing moved, Pylons deep into the earthbed should never move.

Can you prove they moved before or after the incident, or that they moved at all? I am assuming you can prove that they moved because an earthquake or some other reason? I also assume that you can prove that it wasn't designed that way because you're obviously a structural engineer from a very prestigeous school? Ohh, thats right, you went to a community college in what? networking?

Dave, have you ever driven on that bridge? Have you driven on many bridges in that area? Do you know anything but bridge construction? Or is your knowledge of that just about as good as your knowledge of finance (stocks + shorting = failure) your knowledge of companies (Bally's only went bad because discretionary spending and not crappy biz practices), or your knowledge of anything else even outside of your core knowledge base which is what? Networking?

I happened to grow up in MN, not too far outside of the MSP area. I went to the UofMN and drove over that very same bridge hundreds of times. In many of the pictures you can see an apartment complex when looking south that have more rounded terraces, I lived in that building for 2 years with a window *FACING* that bridge (7 corners area, Grandmas is right there, so is a nice little Micro-Brew that I forgot the name of, UofMN law school is close, as is the Carlson School of Business). I walked across similar bridges in the area, including the Washington Avenue bridge, which happens to be designed in a similar fashion and looked as bad as the 35W bridge.

I am sure in your little world you can explain everything, but in this one world we call...reality...your knowledge is very limited. Naturally the transition from your world, to our world, offers you many opportunities to exhibit your lack of knowledge about anything in our world. These are evidenced by what our people call "Trolling". Since your world is obviously an alternate universe where intellectually moronic people from our world would be considered smart, you seem to think your knowledge transfers.

Obviously, it does not. So please, stop with your bullcrap.

 

[alphatarget1]

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Originally posted by: TheTony

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: TheTony
Bridge specs

I'm no engineer, but it seems pretty obvious to me from those pics that this bridge was a terribly flawed design, completely non-redundant. I'm sure poor maintenance played a factor as well, but I think in the end the investigation will find that the bridge failed at one of the crucial points where the truss substructure secures to one of the concrete piers, possibly from something as simple as a single broken bolt.

Truly tragic. My deepest sympathies go out to the victims of this disaster and their families.

Seeing what I've seen, my initial reaction was to suspect the same thing - beginning at the point where the piling connects to the metal structure, on the south/west side of the river.

Originally posted by: daniel1113
After seeing the collapse video, I think it's pretty clear that the failure occurred at one of the truss/pylon connections.

Damned thing moved, Pylons deep into the earthbed should never move.

Don't know much about geology of Minnesota but it is generally very expensive to drill into bedrock. Most lighter weight structures that require the use of piles are drilled deep enough that the interaction between the pile walls and soil (friction, "shear" force) is enough to carry the load.

 

[daniel1113]

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Originally posted by: daniel1113
After seeing the collapse video, I think it's pretty clear that the failure occurred at one of the truss/pylon connections.

Damned thing moved, Pylons deep into the earthbed should never move.

Proof? Source? Anything?

I highly doubt the pylon moved enough to cause structural failure. If these pylons had moved beyond the expected and designed-for bounds, it would have been noticed, either because it took many years and went through many inspections, or because it happened instantly due to either a large natural disaster (earthquake, flood, etc.) or collision (large ship), which would be obvious.

It looks like one of the connections failed, probably due to faulty bolts or something similar.

 

[Toastedlightly]

Well, I just decided to look at the forums. I was on that bridge around 5:00 pm taking the bus home. I hope the Washington Avenue bridge isn't of the same design, as that is mainly a pedestrian bridge for University students.

Also, my friend's Aunt is missing (as of last night), and I saw my friends parents on the news, going into a hospital. Hopefully all is well.

And when people said they saw collapse footage, do you have any links?

EDIT: Saw the video footage...

 

[daniel1113]

Security Camera Footage of the Collapse

 

[TheTony]

*deleted

 

[TheTony]

The video I've seen shows that support (the one that appeared to move) still standing after the initial (river span) collapse. It appeared to be part of a secondary collapse (above the rail line/roadway) shortly after, on the University side.

 

[dmcowen674]

Originally posted by: LegendKiller
Can you prove they moved before or after the incident, or that they moved at all?

Look at the video and the still pics after.

The pylon where the bridge started coming down moved.

Unless there was a pretty big Earthquake or a giant Barge hit it, it should not have moved, period.

 

[dmcowen674]

Originally posted by: alphatarget1

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Originally posted by: TheTony

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: TheTony
Bridge specs

I'm no engineer, but it seems pretty obvious to me from those pics that this bridge was a terribly flawed design, completely non-redundant. I'm sure poor maintenance played a factor as well, but I think in the end the investigation will find that the bridge failed at one of the crucial points where the truss substructure secures to one of the concrete piers, possibly from something as simple as a single broken bolt.

Truly tragic. My deepest sympathies go out to the victims of this disaster and their families.

Seeing what I've seen, my initial reaction was to suspect the same thing - beginning at the point where the piling connects to the metal structure, on the south/west side of the river.

Originally posted by: daniel1113
After seeing the collapse video, I think it's pretty clear that the failure occurred at one of the truss/pylon connections.

Damned thing moved, Pylons deep into the earthbed should never move.

Don't know much about geology of Minnesota but it is generally very expensive to drill into bedrock. Most lighter weight structures that require the use of piles are drilled deep enough that the interaction between the pile walls and soil (friction, "shear" force) is enough to carry the load.

Well New York City is built on bedrock.

In many case there is more to a structure below surface than above street level.

So the "very expensive" excuse is just that an excuse.

If they didn't go to bedrock with that bridge in 1967 they just cost a lot of lives.

 

[alphatarget1]

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Originally posted by: LegendKiller
Can you prove they moved before or after the incident, or that they moved at all?

Look at the video and the still pics after.

The pylon where the bridge started coming down moved.

Unless there was a pretty big Earthquake or a giant Barge hit it, it should not have moved, period.

Did it move laterally? I don't know what you're referring to.

 

[alphatarget1]

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Originally posted by: alphatarget1

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Originally posted by: TheTony

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: TheTony
Bridge specs

I'm no engineer, but it seems pretty obvious to me from those pics that this bridge was a terribly flawed design, completely non-redundant. I'm sure poor maintenance played a factor as well, but I think in the end the investigation will find that the bridge failed at one of the crucial points where the truss substructure secures to one of the concrete piers, possibly from something as simple as a single broken bolt.

Truly tragic. My deepest sympathies go out to the victims of this disaster and their families.

Seeing what I've seen, my initial reaction was to suspect the same thing - beginning at the point where the piling connects to the metal structure, on the south/west side of the river.

Originally posted by: daniel1113
After seeing the collapse video, I think it's pretty clear that the failure occurred at one of the truss/pylon connections.

Damned thing moved, Pylons deep into the earthbed should never move.

Don't know much about geology of Minnesota but it is generally very expensive to drill into bedrock. Most lighter weight structures that require the use of piles are drilled deep enough that the interaction between the pile walls and soil (friction, "shear" force) is enough to carry the load.

Well New York City is built on bedrock.

In many case there is more to a structure below surface than above street level.

So the "very expensive" excuse is just that an excuse.

If they didn't go to bedrock with that bridge in 1967 they just cost a lot of lives.

It's pretty obvious you don't know what you're talking about... Therefore I'll stop replying to your posts.

 

[LegendKiller]

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Originally posted by: LegendKiller
Can you prove they moved before or after the incident, or that they moved at all?

Look at the video and the still pics after.

The pylon where the bridge started coming down moved.

Unless there was a pretty big Earthquake or a giant Barge hit it, it should not have moved, period.

I have yet to see any proof, link?

 

[Fritzo]

I'm watching this on NBC right now, and I'm getting more and more angry. This is the freakin' United States- not some 3rd world nation :| The fact that something like this could even happen in today's age in this country is beyond imagination. This better be a wakeup call for bridge inspectors.

 

[Modelworks]

yeah I was watching it on nbc just now too.
The expert they had on there said that alot of the problems are corrosion and that there were corroded joints in the last inspection.

Thats sad . I mean really sad.
People die because were too cheap to keep our bridges painted ?

That and the part about how the senators don't like to put money into old bridges but want new bridges to be built instead. I suppose so it can be named after them

 

[alphatarget1]

Originally posted by: Modelworks
yeah I was watching it on nbc just now too.
The expert they had on there said that alot of the problems are corrosion and that there were corroded joints in the last inspection.

Thats sad . I mean really sad.
People die because were too cheap to keep our bridges painted ?

That and the part about how the senators don't like to put money into old bridges but want new bridges to be built instead. I suppose so it can be named after them

Politicians don't care about people.

 

[Summitdrinker]

well it doesn't sound all that good, looks like we are going to have more dead, it sounds like there are bodies in cars in the water

 

[dmcowen674]

Originally posted by: alphatarget1

Originally posted by: Modelworks
yeah I was watching it on nbc just now too.
The expert they had on there said that alot of the problems are corrosion and that there were corroded joints in the last inspection.

Thats sad . I mean really sad.
People die because were too cheap to keep our bridges painted ?

That and the part about how the senators don't like to put money into old bridges but want new bridges to be built instead. I suppose so it can be named after them

Politicians don't care about people.

Yep, keep sending billions and billions overseas for false wars:

8-2-2007 Bridge collapse a wake-up call for politicians

U.S. politicians on Thursday treated the collapse of a highway bridge that killed or injured dozens of people as a jarring wake-up call to fix the nation's aging roads and bridges

"A bridge in America just shouldn't fall down," said Sen. Amy Klobuchar, a Minnesota Democrat at a news conference in Minneapolis. "We have to get to the bottom of this."

Rep. James Oberstar, the Minnesota Democrat who chairs the House Transportation and Infrastructure Committee, blamed President George W. Bush's administration for shortchanging road and bridge repair in a highway funding bill two years ago.

Bush, he said, "failed to support a robust investment in surface transportation," adding the president insisted on only $2 billion a year for bridge reconstruction when lawmakers were pushing for $3 billion a year.

Funding it all would require trillions of dollars. The only way to address the issue is to prioritize, he said, but then politics comes into play.

"The fact of the matter is nobody gets their name on a bridge repair," Harries said. "You build a bridge, you get your name on it."

 

[LegendKiller]

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Originally posted by: alphatarget1

Originally posted by: Modelworks
yeah I was watching it on nbc just now too.
The expert they had on there said that alot of the problems are corrosion and that there were corroded joints in the last inspection.

Thats sad . I mean really sad.
People die because were too cheap to keep our bridges painted ?

That and the part about how the senators don't like to put money into old bridges but want new bridges to be built instead. I suppose so it can be named after them

Politicians don't care about people.

Yep, keep sending billions and billions overseas for false wars:

8-2-2007 Bridge collapse a wake-up call for politicians

U.S. politicians on Thursday treated the collapse of a highway bridge that killed or injured dozens of people as a jarring wake-up call to fix the nation's aging roads and bridges

"A bridge in America just shouldn't fall down," said Sen. Amy Klobuchar, a Minnesota Democrat at a news conference in Minneapolis. "We have to get to the bottom of this."

Rep. James Oberstar, the Minnesota Democrat who chairs the House Transportation and Infrastructure Committee, blamed President George W. Bush's administration for shortchanging road and bridge repair in a highway funding bill two years ago.

Bush, he said, "failed to support a robust investment in surface transportation," adding the president insisted on only $2 billion a year for bridge reconstruction when lawmakers were pushing for $3 billion a year.

Funding it all would require trillions of dollars. The only way to address the issue is to prioritize, he said, but then politics comes into play.

"The fact of the matter is nobody gets their name on a bridge repair," Harries said. "You build a bridge, you get your name on it."

Proof about your claim that the pilings moved?

 

[Xstatic1]

sorry if someone already posted links, but here are pics...

more pics...

& even more pics...

and yet another set of pics

 

[NikolaeVarius]

Bridges collapsing worries me alot.

It sucks that an important bridge in New York the Tappan Zee bridge is a couple decades over due for an overhaul.. Most of the structural supports are rusted through too..

 

[meltdown75]

 

[akshatp]

Originally posted by: tenshodo13
Bridges collapsing worries me alot.

It sucks that an important bridge in New York the Tappan Zee bridge is a couple decades over due for an overhaul.. Most of the structural supports are rusted through too..

And the TZ is one LONG ASS bridge too... It goes on for at least 5 miles IIRC.... We used to take it all the time when visiting my uncle in CT, but now we use the NJTP/GWB because we found out that its a much shorter route and the traffic isnt THAT bad (unless their is a Yankee game)

 

[brandonb]

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

"A bridge in America just shouldn't fall down," said Sen. Amy Klobuchar, a Minnesota Democrat at a news conference in Minneapolis. "We have to get to the bottom of this."

Rep. James Oberstar, the Minnesota Democrat who chairs the House Transportation and Infrastructure Committee, blamed President George W. Bush's administration for shortchanging road and bridge repair in a highway funding bill two years ago.

Bush, he said, "failed to support a robust investment in surface transportation," adding the president insisted on only $2 billion a year for bridge reconstruction when lawmakers were pushing for $3 billion a year.

Funding it all would require trillions of dollars. The only way to address the issue is to prioritize, he said, but then politics comes into play.

This is just not a finger pointing session to Pres. Bush, or any other republican politician, this is a problem with every politician in office, period. Including those in the quote. Just because Bush created a transportation bill which didn't include as much funds for bridge repairs doesn't stop the politicans (especially state politicians like James Oberstar) from going ahead with their own bills and funds for transportation. The simple matter of fact, nobody elects politicians based on how much funds they want to spend on bridge construction, however, if the funds are allocated in other areas, such as baseball stadiums, social services, etc, that will get them votes, which is why politicians ignore important things such as bridges and basic infrastructure.

Of course they forget, the tax payers are the ones using that infrastructure.

 

[Thegonagle]

dmcowen, I agree with you that the support pilings of the main span should not have moved an inch in this, or any, event. Fact is, though, pictures and video clearly show at least one of the two main supports listing rather severely. They moved--a lot.

However, we don't yet know whether the pylons moved first in the mechanical chain of events, causing the rest of the bridge to collapse, or whether the extreme force of the collapse--caused by, say, an expansion joint failure--"bent" them out of place.

 

[skyking]

Originally posted by: Thegonagle
dmcowen, I agree with you that the support pilings of the main span should not have moved an inch in this, or any, event. Fact is, though, pictures and video clearly show at least one of the two main supports listing rather severely. They moved--a lot.

However, we don't yet know whether the pylons moved first in the mechanical chain of events, causing the rest of the bridge to collapse, or whether the extreme force of the collapse--caused by, say, an expansion joint failure--"bent" them out of place.

I'd go with the latter scenario, given the studies about a lack of redundant pathway in the upper plane of the steel structure.
My condolences for anyone who lost a loved one or was injured in this tragic event.