35W Bridge Collapses in Minneapolis - 8 Lanes, 4 in use

[dmcowen674]

Originally posted by: LegendKiller

Proof about your claim that the pilings moved?

I'll post as many pics as I find:

Piling moved with obvious metal sheer

Main piling cocked at angle to the right, notice the one next to it is still straight - I suspect this is the main cause of the failure and collapse

Another piling cocked at a slight angle

Another shot of a main piling angled - the one on the right moved, the left did not

Another shot of a moved piling

Another piling that moved

Super clear picture of MAIN River pilings angled - This should never have moved The other side did not move

Between this bridge being a poor design to begin with and pilings that can move it's no wonder it came down.

How many more are like this one around the country?

 

[LegendKiller]

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Originally posted by: LegendKiller

Proof about your claim that the pilings moved?

I'll post as many pics as I find:

Piling moved with obvious metal sheer

Main piling cocked at angle to the right, notice the one next to it is still straight - I suspect this is the main cause of the failure and collapse

Another piling cocked at a slight angle

Another shot of a main piling angled - the one on the right moved, the left did not

Another shot of a moved piling

Another piling that moved

Super clear picture of MAIN River pilings angled - This should never have moved The other side did not move

Between this bridge being a poor design to begin with and pilings that can move it's no wonder it came down.

How many more are like this one around the country?

Pre or post collapse movement proof?

 

[dmcowen674]

Originally posted by: LegendKiller

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Originally posted by: LegendKiller

Proof about your claim that the pilings moved?

I'll post as many pics as I find:

Piling moved with obvious metal sheer

Main piling cocked at angle to the right, notice the one next to it is still straight - I suspect this is the main cause of the failure and collapse

Another piling cocked at a slight angle

Another shot of a main piling angled - the one on the right moved, the left did not

Another shot of a moved piling

Another piling that moved

Super clear picture of MAIN River pilings angled - This should never have moved The other side did not move

Between this bridge being a poor design to begin with and pilings that can move it's no wonder it came down.

How many more are like this one around the country?

Pre or post collapse movement proof?

That's the point, it doesn't matter, pilings should never move.

God I hope you're never on a construction project of any kind.

 

[LegendKiller]

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Originally posted by: LegendKiller

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Originally posted by: LegendKiller

Proof about your claim that the pilings moved?

I'll post as many pics as I find:

Piling moved with obvious metal sheer

Main piling cocked at angle to the right, notice the one next to it is still straight - I suspect this is the main cause of the failure and collapse

Another piling cocked at a slight angle

Another shot of a main piling angled - the one on the right moved, the left did not

Another shot of a moved piling

Another piling that moved

Super clear picture of MAIN River pilings angled - This should never have moved The other side did not move

Between this bridge being a poor design to begin with and pilings that can move it's no wonder it came down.

How many more are like this one around the country?

Pre or post collapse movement proof?

That's the point, it doesn't matter, pilings should never move.

God I hope you're never on a construction project of any kind.

A lot of things should "never move". The WTC towers shouldn't have fallen from an airplane. The problem is you never know what happened until you investigate it thoroughly, since all sorts of events can lead to unexpected conclusions.

God I hope you're never an investigator, lawyer, judge, or politician. Duke Rape case? Jump to Conclusion mat?

 

[skyking]

Dave, I'm sorry but you are so far off base on this. The piers (not pilings) are designed for a vertical load. When the bridge went down it imposed tremendous side loads on the top of the piers. They are not designed for that. The collapsing structure pushed the piers.
What would I know about it? I've worked on three bridge jobs over rivers, from start to finish.

 

[dmcowen674]

Originally posted by: LegendKiller

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Originally posted by: LegendKiller

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Originally posted by: LegendKiller

Proof about your claim that the pilings moved?

I'll post as many pics as I find:

Piling moved with obvious metal sheer

Main piling cocked at angle to the right, notice the one next to it is still straight - I suspect this is the main cause of the failure and collapse

Another piling cocked at a slight angle

Another shot of a main piling angled - the one on the right moved, the left did not

Another shot of a moved piling

Another piling that moved

Super clear picture of MAIN River pilings angled - This should never have moved The other side did not move

Between this bridge being a poor design to begin with and pilings that can move it's no wonder it came down.

How many more are like this one around the country?

Pre or post collapse movement proof?

That's the point, it doesn't matter, pilings should never move.

God I hope you're never on a construction project of any kind.

A lot of things should "never move". The WTC towers shouldn't have fallen from an airplane. The problem is you never know what happened until you investigate it thoroughly, since all sorts of events can lead to unexpected conclusions.

God I hope you're never an investigator, lawyer, judge, or politician. Duke Rape case? Jump to Conclusion mat?

I thought the towers did pretty well considering the fire load in them. They didn't come down right away. I don't consider it normal for fully loaded airliners flying directly into the middle of a skyscraper, apparently you do.

I used to DJ many many parties including frat parties and I certainly would've not jumped on any bandwagin like that idiot Nifong did. In fact I know all too well about nefarious prosecution for political gain.

Conclusion is there is a lot going wrong and more and more going wrong everyday in our own country while we piss away billions abroad. Of course people like you are perfectly OK with that. Very sad.

 

[LegendKiller]

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Originally posted by: LegendKiller

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Originally posted by: LegendKiller

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Originally posted by: LegendKiller

Proof about your claim that the pilings moved?

I'll post as many pics as I find:

Piling moved with obvious metal sheer

Main piling cocked at angle to the right, notice the one next to it is still straight - I suspect this is the main cause of the failure and collapse

Another piling cocked at a slight angle

Another shot of a main piling angled - the one on the right moved, the left did not

Another shot of a moved piling

Another piling that moved

Super clear picture of MAIN River pilings angled - This should never have moved The other side did not move

Between this bridge being a poor design to begin with and pilings that can move it's no wonder it came down.

How many more are like this one around the country?

Pre or post collapse movement proof?

That's the point, it doesn't matter, pilings should never move.

God I hope you're never on a construction project of any kind.

A lot of things should "never move". The WTC towers shouldn't have fallen from an airplane. The problem is you never know what happened until you investigate it thoroughly, since all sorts of events can lead to unexpected conclusions.

God I hope you're never an investigator, lawyer, judge, or politician. Duke Rape case? Jump to Conclusion mat?

I thought the towers did pretty well considering the fire load in them. They didn't come down right away. I don't consider it normal for fully loaded airliners flying directly into the middle of a skyscraper, apparently you do.

I used to DJ many many parties including frat parties and I certainly would've not jumped on any bandwagin like that idiot Nifong did. In fact I know all too well about nefarious prosecution for political gain.

Conclusion is there is a lot going wrong and more and more going wrong everyday in our own country while we piss away billions abroad. Of course people like you are perfectly OK with that. Very sad.

Indeed, the towers did do well considering. However, nobody expected the scenario that played out, so they collapsed.

It's funny you should say that "Of course people like you are perfectly OK with that", yet another case of Dave McOwen being a complete and utter moron. If you look at the top of page 14 of this thread, you may notice a post of mine.

Our conclusions regarding the degredation of our infrastructure are the same. However, I make no claims I know what happened or that I am a structural engineer. However, you are quite different in the this case, in that you try to seem like a professional in every thread about every topic. I merely stick to business and finance, whereas you think your purview is everything. This is how you participate in self-ownage, like I have done repeatedly in your "economy" thread and this thread.

 

[GalvanizedYankee]

I think it will be found that the piers had settled in the riverbed over the years and that the attachment points to those piers were highly corroded. This corrosion was prolly never repaired or the metal protected properly, only covered with layer after layer of paint. I do believe it will be discovered that the piers were working/moving and this caused the already weakened attachment point to give way. Once one goes, the house of cards falls.

 

[TheTony]

I think we'll see that the pilings, at least those being brought into question, were not the direct cause of the event.

For all the insistence that they had something to do with it, realize this: the pilings you keep referring to are on the east side of the river. From the video, it's fairly apparent that the failure began on the west side of the bridge.

Furthermore, said video plainly shows that those pilings and the decking above it were still intact and in place following the initial span failure. So, regardless of whether or not they should have shifted, them shifting was much more likely the effect than the cause.

fyi - I'm referring to the concrete supports/pilings themselves , not where the plates meet the piling. I fully question the possibility of the connection plates, though it is important to note that they have bearings built into them for expansion, so they're not meant to be as immobile as one might think.

 

[K1052]

Originally posted by: TheTony
I think we'll see that the pilings, at least those being brough into question, were not the direct cause of the event.

For all the insistence that they had something to do with it, realize this: the pilings you keep referring to are on the east side of the river. From the video, it's fairly apparent that the failure began on the west side of the bridge.

I was wondering about that too, it looks like the piling tilted to the west which doesn't a make much sense if it was the culprit.

Granted the bridge wasn't in perfect shape but I have to question why it would collapse under the relatively light loads it was being subjected to. If anything I'd be interested in exactly what the contractor working on the bridge was doing.

 

[Pabster]

Originally posted by: K1052
Granted the bridge wasn't in perfect shape but I have to question why it would collapse under the relatively light loads it was being subjected to. If anything I'd be interested in exactly what the contractor working on the bridge was doing.

"Light" load? They had only 2 lanes moving, forcing all that traffic, moving very slowly, and to top it all off it was 93 degrees. I think it was a "perfect storm" of sorts - everything from corroded bearings to the weather. A bridge designed and built in 1967 simply isn't adequate to handle the load of today's modern traffic patterns - add to that poor maintenance and lackadaisical "inspection" techniques...

I like the idea of signs being posted at the entrances to ALL bridges, identifying their latest score for structual stability and integrity.

 

[LegendKiller]

Originally posted by: K1052

Originally posted by: TheTony
I think we'll see that the pilings, at least those being brough into question, were not the direct cause of the event.

For all the insistence that they had something to do with it, realize this: the pilings you keep referring to are on the east side of the river. From the video, it's fairly apparent that the failure began on the west side of the bridge.

I was wondering about that too, it looks like the piling tilted to the west which doesn't a make much sense if it was the culprit.

Granted the bridge wasn't in perfect shape but I have to question why it would collapse under the relatively light loads it was being subjected to. If anything I'd be interested in exactly what the contractor working on the bridge was doing.

It's not an E/W running bridge, it's N/S with a slight tilt E/W...

At that point the river is running E/W.

 

[K1052]

Originally posted by: LegendKiller

Originally posted by: K1052

Originally posted by: TheTony
I think we'll see that the pilings, at least those being brough into question, were not the direct cause of the event.

For all the insistence that they had something to do with it, realize this: the pilings you keep referring to are on the east side of the river. From the video, it's fairly apparent that the failure began on the west side of the bridge.

I was wondering about that too, it looks like the piling tilted to the west which doesn't a make much sense if it was the culprit.

Granted the bridge wasn't in perfect shape but I have to question why it would collapse under the relatively light loads it was being subjected to. If anything I'd be interested in exactly what the contractor working on the bridge was doing.

It's not an E/W running bridge, it's N/S with a slight tilt E/W...

At that point the river is running E/W.

Still the piling is leaning towards the part of the bridge that fell first, which would seem odd if it was the point of failure.

 

[TheTony]

Originally posted by: LegendKiller

Originally posted by: K1052

Originally posted by: TheTony
I think we'll see that the pilings, at least those being brough into question, were not the direct cause of the event.

For all the insistence that they had something to do with it, realize this: the pilings you keep referring to are on the east side of the river. From the video, it's fairly apparent that the failure began on the west side of the bridge.

I was wondering about that too, it looks like the piling tilted to the west which doesn't a make much sense if it was the culprit.

Granted the bridge wasn't in perfect shape but I have to question why it would collapse under the relatively light loads it was being subjected to. If anything I'd be interested in exactly what the contractor working on the bridge was doing.

It's not an E/W running bridge, it's N/S with a slight tilt E/W...

At that point the river is running E/W.

You are correct. Despite the direction of the bruidge, however, the sides of the river are called East bank and West bank. It just happens that that stretch of river is where the Mississippi makes it's way east towards St. Paul. It's interesting to see the news reports because depending on what you're watching or reading, you'll see it referred to differently each time.

I've referred to them at an easlier point with both qualifiers (East/North:West/South) but it can get confusing, and it's not really the main point anyway.

Granted, you knew that. It's a little more confusing for non-locals. Not to mention the idea of Interstate 35 locally - referring to 35W or 35E South/North most of the time gets a blank stare...

 

[LegendKiller]

Originally posted by: K1052

Originally posted by: LegendKiller

Originally posted by: K1052

Originally posted by: TheTony
I think we'll see that the pilings, at least those being brough into question, were not the direct cause of the event.

For all the insistence that they had something to do with it, realize this: the pilings you keep referring to are on the east side of the river. From the video, it's fairly apparent that the failure began on the west side of the bridge.

I was wondering about that too, it looks like the piling tilted to the west which doesn't a make much sense if it was the culprit.

Granted the bridge wasn't in perfect shape but I have to question why it would collapse under the relatively light loads it was being subjected to. If anything I'd be interested in exactly what the contractor working on the bridge was doing.

It's not an E/W running bridge, it's N/S with a slight tilt E/W...

At that point the river is running E/W.

Still the piling is leaning towards the part of the bridge that fell first, which would seem odd if it was the point of failure.

Yeah, just wanted to correct a small thing that a lot of newsies keep saying. I think there's some confusion about the 35W/E thing.

In general, the 35 freeway system is a N/S freeway with certain portions naturally going E/W. The difference is that 35 splits in the Forest Lake/Lino Lakes area into 35W and 35E (This split is around where Herb Brooks died). 35E goes towards St. Paul and 35W goes towards Minneapolis. St. Paul is the more "east" city while Minneapolis is the more "west" city. 35 joins back up south of the cities.

I grew up in a small town a little more N/E of Forst Lake, so I took the 35s a lot. I went to the UofMN and traveled down 35W frequently going to and from school. I took that bridge quite a bit, especially since I lived on what was known as the "West Bank" of the UofMN. The East Bank is where most of the school resides, with portions of the Agriculture area (where I worked as IT support) residing on the St. Paul campus.

A lot more than you needed to know, but it's always good to know what you're talking about.

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: skyking
Dave, I'm sorry but you are so far off base on this. The piers (not pilings) are designed for a vertical load. When the bridge went down it imposed tremendous side loads on the top of the piers. They are not designed for that. The collapsing structure pushed the piers.
What would I know about it? I've worked on three bridge jobs over rivers, from start to finish.

Genuine thanks for the expert analysis, but don't expect Dave to be swayed by your professional knowledge. That just makes you a "shill" in his mind.



Just my $0.02 on the immediate aftermath of this tragedy: I think it is unconsciousable that media and politicians are leveraging this for their own gain. No one is even sure what happened yet, the dead aren't even buried, and already fingers are being pointed and hands are being held out. I am disgusted.

 

[MikeyIs4Dcats]

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Originally posted by: LegendKiller

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Originally posted by: LegendKiller

Proof about your claim that the pilings moved?

I'll post as many pics as I find:

Piling moved with obvious metal sheer

Main piling cocked at angle to the right, notice the one next to it is still straight - I suspect this is the main cause of the failure and collapse

Another piling cocked at a slight angle

Another shot of a main piling angled - the one on the right moved, the left did not

Another shot of a moved piling

Another piling that moved

Super clear picture of MAIN River pilings angled - This should never have moved The other side did not move

Between this bridge being a poor design to begin with and pilings that can move it's no wonder it came down.

How many more are like this one around the country?

Pre or post collapse movement proof?

That's the point, it doesn't matter, pilings should never move.

God I hope you're never on a construction project of any kind.

Dave,

You don't know what you're talking about. Those support piers are made to withstand mostly vertical forces. That piling moved because of the hundreds of tons of concrete and steel leaning on it. Ordinarily, that pier would see very little lateral force.

This is a case of metal fatigue, clear as day. The bridge had hundreds of cracks, and one of them finally sheared. Due to the poor design, there was no redundancy. That pier moved, but it did so POST collapse.

I could break out my Statics books and explain more to you, but I'd rather go eat lunch.

 

[GoPackGo]

There goes our surplus.

 

[alphatarget1]

Originally posted by: MikeyIs4Dcats

This is a case of metal fatigue, clear as day. The bridge had hundreds of cracks, and one of them finally sheared. Due to the poor design, there was no redundancy. That pier moved, but it did so POST collapse.

I could break out my Statics books and explain more to you, but I'd rather go eat lunch.

I'd say a majority of bridges are statically determinate, aka no redundancy. Redundancy = money.

It did look flimsy comparing to CA bridges...

Shouldn't be hard to analyze this bridge's internal member forces. People do stupid crap with structures anyway, like tying a water pipe (heavy) onto a girder that wasn't designed for.

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: Fritzo
I'm watching this on NBC right now, and I'm getting more and more angry. This is the freakin' United States- not some 3rd world nation :| The fact that something like this could even happen in today's age in this country is beyond imagination. This better be a wakeup call for bridge inspectors.

I understand your outrage, but bad news, bridge failures tragically occur all the time, even in the good ol' US of A.

The most recent failure of similar magnitude in the US was the I-40 bridge disaster in Oklahoma on May 26, 2002.
However, Canada had a very similar bridge failure occur just outside Montreal in September of last year.

Of course we need to do better, but acting like this sort of thing never happens is not conducive to solution.

 

[dmcowen674]

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: Fritzo
I'm watching this on NBC right now, and I'm getting more and more angry. This is the freakin' United States- not some 3rd world nation :| The fact that something like this could even happen in today's age in this country is beyond imagination. This better be a wakeup call for bridge inspectors.

I understand your outrage, but bad news, bridge failures tragically occur all the time, even in the good ol' US of A.

The most recent failure of similar magnitude in the US was the I-40 bridge disaster in Oklahoma on May 26, 2002.
However, Canada had a very similar bridge failure occur just outside Montreal in September of last year.

Of course we need to do better, but acting like this sort of thing never happens is not conducive to solution.

A Barge hit the bridge in the Arkansas river causing the I-40 soan to collapse.

 

[dmcowen674]

Originally posted by: GalvanizedYankee
I think it will be found that the piers had settled in the riverbed over the years and that the attachment points to those piers were highly corroded. This corrosion was prolly never repaired or the metal protected properly, only covered with layer after layer of paint. I do believe it will be discovered that the piers were working/moving and this caused the already weakened attachment point to give way. Once one goes, the house of cards falls.

BINGO :thumbsup:

You can fix attachment plates but if you have a moving target and failing attach point, forget about it.

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: Fritzo
I'm watching this on NBC right now, and I'm getting more and more angry. This is the freakin' United States- not some 3rd world nation :| The fact that something like this could even happen in today's age in this country is beyond imagination. This better be a wakeup call for bridge inspectors.

I understand your outrage, but bad news, bridge failures tragically occur all the time, even in the good ol' US of A.

The most recent failure of similar magnitude in the US was the I-40 bridge disaster in Oklahoma on May 26, 2002.
However, Canada had a very similar bridge failure occur just outside Montreal in September of last year.

Of course we need to do better, but acting like this sort of thing never happens is not conducive to solution.

A Barge hit the bridge in the Arkansas river causing the I-40 soan to collapse.

Yes, I am aware of that. What is your point? I said, "the most recent failure of similar magnitude." Which it was. I then mentioned "a very similar bridge failure" in Canada in which a bridge collapsed due to poor maintenance just last fall.

I'm gonna say it again, Of course we need to do better, but acting like this sort of thing never happens is not conducive to solution.

 

[dmcowen674]

Originally posted by: LegendKiller
I merely stick to business and finance, whereas you think your purview is everything.

This is how you participate in self-ownage, like I have done repeatedly in your "economy" thread and this thread.

bahahahahaha this coming from one of the people that claim the U.S. is doing best ever and booming under your hero :laugh:

yep, that's your business alright.

 

[dmcowen674]

Originally posted by: alphatarget1

Originally posted by: MikeyIs4Dcats

This is a case of metal fatigue, clear as day. The bridge had hundreds of cracks, and one of them finally sheared. Due to the poor design, there was no redundancy. That pier moved, but it did so POST collapse.

I could break out my Statics books and explain more to you, but I'd rather go eat lunch.

I'd say a majority of bridges are statically determinate, aka no redundancy. Redundancy = money.

It did look flimsy comparing to CA bridges...

Shouldn't be hard to analyze this bridge's internal member forces. People do stupid crap with structures anyway, like tying a water pipe (heavy) onto a girder that wasn't designed for.

Don't need that redundancy if it truly stays static.

Obviously something went dynamic that shouldn't have.