35W Bridge Collapses in Minneapolis - 8 Lanes, 4 in use

[TheTony]

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Originally posted by: GalvanizedYankee
I think it will be found that the piers had settled in the riverbed over the years and that the attachment points to those piers were highly corroded. This corrosion was prolly never repaired or the metal protected properly, only covered with layer after layer of paint. I do believe it will be discovered that the piers were working/moving and this caused the already weakened attachment point to give way. Once one goes, the house of cards falls.

BINGO :thumbsup:

You can fix attachment plates but if you have a moving target and failing attach point, forget about it.

You can keep pointing to this theory...

Fine. Just don't use pictures of the side of the bridge opposite of where the collapse began, as your proof.

 

[K1052]

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Originally posted by: LegendKiller
I merely stick to business and finance, whereas you think your purview is everything.

This is how you participate in self-ownage, like I have done repeatedly in your "economy" thread and this thread.

bahahahahaha this coming from one of the people that claim the U.S. is doing best ever and booming under your hero :laugh:

yep, that's your business alright.

I take it you have never read a single one of his posts on the subject to make such a totally baseless and innacurate claim.

I suppose it is just bitterness on your part though since he invests some time into exposing you for the hapless boob that you are.

 

[LegendKiller]

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Originally posted by: LegendKiller
I merely stick to business and finance, whereas you think your purview is everything.

This is how you participate in self-ownage, like I have done repeatedly in your "economy" thread and this thread.

bahahahahaha this coming from one of the people that claim the U.S. is doing best ever and booming under your hero :laugh:

yep, that's your business alright.

Geebus, you really are a boob. Where have I ever claimed we are doing the "best ever"? I am the one running around saying that things are horrible. I am probably one of the most anti-bush people in existence as I think he's utterly destroying this country.


I just don't happen to agree with *any* of your analysis and prove you wrong time and time again because...you are a boob. All you can do is come into this thread with no knowledge and trash it up with your moronic theories. You have no basis, you have no logic and you have no intelligence into the matter.

Just stop, please.

 

[jandrews]

Traffic was bad yesterday, there is a road called 494 that was backed up a good 4 miles longer than usual. They just built a new 4 lane bridge for 494 just this last year from 2 lanes before. If the bridge was still 2 lanes traffic would have taken 3-4 hours to get across it, ridiculous. It even took me longer getting home going on 35e which usually has no stop and go traffic. It will be interesting to see how this develops.

 

[TheTony]

Originally posted by: jandrews
Traffic was bad yesterday, there is a road called 494 that was backed up a good 4 miles longer than usual. They just built a new 4 lane bridge for 494 just this last year from 2 lanes before. If the bridge was still 2 lanes traffic would have taken 3-4 hours to get across it, ridiculous. It even took me longer getting home going on 35e which usually has no stop and go traffic. It will be interesting to see how this develops.

I'm not sure how 494 would be impacted by 35, unless people are taking long detours. I'd imagine 280, 694 and 94 will see the most increase.

Granted, I think we'll see some patterns of what to expect, in the next days and weeks, as far as traffic is concerned.

 

[MikeyIs4Dcats]

Originally posted by: alphatarget1

Originally posted by: MikeyIs4Dcats

This is a case of metal fatigue, clear as day. The bridge had hundreds of cracks, and one of them finally sheared. Due to the poor design, there was no redundancy. That pier moved, but it did so POST collapse.

I could break out my Statics books and explain more to you, but I'd rather go eat lunch.

I'd say a majority of bridges are statically determinate, aka no redundancy. Redundancy = money.

It did look flimsy comparing to CA bridges...

Shouldn't be hard to analyze this bridge's internal member forces. People do stupid crap with structures anyway, like tying a water pipe (heavy) onto a girder that wasn't designed for.

actually you are wrong. Most modern bridges could survive a partial failure.

I totally agree about people abusing structures though. You can't imagine some of the bonehead things I've seen and heard about people doing in buildings.

 

[LegendKiller]

Originally posted by: TheTony

Originally posted by: jandrews
Traffic was bad yesterday, there is a road called 494 that was backed up a good 4 miles longer than usual. They just built a new 4 lane bridge for 494 just this last year from 2 lanes before. If the bridge was still 2 lanes traffic would have taken 3-4 hours to get across it, ridiculous. It even took me longer getting home going on 35e which usually has no stop and go traffic. It will be interesting to see how this develops.

I'm not sure how 494 would be impacted by 35, unless people are taking long detours. I'd imagine 280, 694 and 94 will see the most increase.

Granted, I think we'll see some patterns of what to expect, in the next days and weeks, as far as traffic is concerned.

My parents said that they effectively "freeway-ized" 280, closing all cross streets and making all of the stoplights green. That kinda sucks since it's a very circuous way of getting downtown. What do you take from there? Central? Washington Ave?

 

[jandrews]

Originally posted by: TheTony

Originally posted by: jandrews
Traffic was bad yesterday, there is a road called 494 that was backed up a good 4 miles longer than usual. They just built a new 4 lane bridge for 494 just this last year from 2 lanes before. If the bridge was still 2 lanes traffic would have taken 3-4 hours to get across it, ridiculous. It even took me longer getting home going on 35e which usually has no stop and go traffic. It will be interesting to see how this develops.

I'm not sure how 494 would be impacted by 35, unless people are taking long detours. I'd imagine 280, 694 and 94 will see the most increase.

Granted, I think we'll see some patterns of what to expect, in the next days and weeks, as far as traffic is concerned.

Well I dont know what to tell you, apparently people work downtown and live in the suburbs which includes woodbury/cottage grove/hastings not sure why it would be affected but it sure was. It was more backed up than I have ever seen it in my life.

 

[yuppiejr]

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: skyking
Dave, I'm sorry but you are so far off base on this. The piers (not pilings) are designed for a vertical load. When the bridge went down it imposed tremendous side loads on the top of the piers. They are not designed for that. The collapsing structure pushed the piers.
What would I know about it? I've worked on three bridge jobs over rivers, from start to finish.

Genuine thanks for the expert analysis, but don't expect Dave to be swayed by your professional knowledge. That just makes you a "shill" in his mind.



Just my $0.02 on the immediate aftermath of this tragedy: I think it is unconsciousable that media and politicians are leveraging this for their own gain. No one is even sure what happened yet, the dead aren't even buried, and already fingers are being pointed and hands are being held out. I am disgusted.

Yea, nice, isn't it? The blue team is already trying to use this to steamroll a $0.10 per gallon statewide gas tax through, even though this is part of the interstate freeway system and will be repaired with fed dollars. Nice... At least let them finish pulling the bodies out of the water before you start trying to collect even more "transportation" (more choo-choo trains) tax dollars.

 

[yuppiejr]

Originally posted by: jandrews

Originally posted by: TheTony

Originally posted by: jandrews
Traffic was bad yesterday, there is a road called 494 that was backed up a good 4 miles longer than usual. They just built a new 4 lane bridge for 494 just this last year from 2 lanes before. If the bridge was still 2 lanes traffic would have taken 3-4 hours to get across it, ridiculous. It even took me longer getting home going on 35e which usually has no stop and go traffic. It will be interesting to see how this develops.

I'm not sure how 494 would be impacted by 35, unless people are taking long detours. I'd imagine 280, 694 and 94 will see the most increase.

Granted, I think we'll see some patterns of what to expect, in the next days and weeks, as far as traffic is concerned.

Well I dont know what to tell you, apparently people work downtown and live in the suburbs which includes woodbury/cottage grove/hastings not sure why it would be affected but it sure was. It was more backed up than I have ever seen it in my life.

Interesting, I commute from the north-central outer ring burbs to downtown on 94 every day and noticed traffic was lighter than normal coming in the last two days and going home last night. I'll be curious to see if the pattern sticks next week but so far I was surprised how little impact this had on my commute times.

 

[ViviTheMage]

I think 494 and 100, 169 are all packed because the 35w traffic used to shoot strait up to 694 and took that, now they are taking the E and W bound 494 traffic...to hit the outside roads, but they are horrible anyway.

 

[jandrews]

Originally posted by: yuppiejr

Originally posted by: jandrews

Originally posted by: TheTony

Originally posted by: jandrews
Traffic was bad yesterday, there is a road called 494 that was backed up a good 4 miles longer than usual. They just built a new 4 lane bridge for 494 just this last year from 2 lanes before. If the bridge was still 2 lanes traffic would have taken 3-4 hours to get across it, ridiculous. It even took me longer getting home going on 35e which usually has no stop and go traffic. It will be interesting to see how this develops.

I'm not sure how 494 would be impacted by 35, unless people are taking long detours. I'd imagine 280, 694 and 94 will see the most increase.

Granted, I think we'll see some patterns of what to expect, in the next days and weeks, as far as traffic is concerned.

Well I dont know what to tell you, apparently people work downtown and live in the suburbs which includes woodbury/cottage grove/hastings not sure why it would be affected but it sure was. It was more backed up than I have ever seen it in my life.

Interesting, I commute from the north-central outer ring burbs to downtown on 94 every day and noticed traffic was lighter than normal coming in the last two days and going home last night. I'll be curious to see if the pattern sticks next week but so far I was surprised how little impact this had on my commute times.

I think monday and tuesday of next week will really show us what to expect. I think a lot of people either took the two days off and fridays are always light on traffic. Monday/Tuesday people will be going back to work. If I worked in that area and had to add an extra hour to my drive time I would definately quit or move I couldnt take it. Time will tell I suppose but regardless of what happens my drive time should stay similar 15-20mins.

 

[ViviTheMage]

62 was dead stop at 10am...going into the cities, but when is it never ... that intersection is just horrid anyway...two lanes, cutting into one lane -_-

wish we had 5 lanes going every which way from sunday.

 

[Wolfie]

The piers that moved are on the north side of the bridge. Everything so far points to the southern side where it started. And from what I could tell, the southern pier did NOT move. If you saw it in person, you could almost see how it fell by the way it sits.

Where I work, I get a chance to be right where the action is. Being able to see the site up close. I have been to the site twice now the last couple days and to say the least, the pictures do NOT do it justice. To see the thing in person makes you understand how vast this whole thing is. It is a totaly awsome site to see.

 

[Zedtom]

Originally posted by: Wolfie
The piers that moved are on the north side of the bridge. Everything so far points to the southern side where it started. And from what I could tell, the southern pier did NOT move. If you saw it in person, you could almost see how it fell by the way it sits.

Where I work, I get a chance to be right where the action is. Being able to see the site up close. I have been to the site twice now the last couple days and to say the least, the pictures do NOT do it justice. To see the thing in person makes you understand how vast this whole thing is. It is a totaly awsome site to see.

Hey Wolfie, could you give us an ATOT eyewitness account? Are the police restricting civilians from getting closeup views or photographs?

 

[alphatarget1]

Originally posted by: MikeyIs4Dcats

actually you are wrong. Most modern bridges could survive a partial failure.

Define "modern" and "partial failure".

I should've explained myself better. A suspension bridge losing a cable probably wouldn't collapse as the other cables will take up the slack. A statically determinate truss structure... If you lose a member/joint your members usually won't be able to take up the additional load. Let's say you have a simply supported parallel chord truss. The top is in compression and the bottom is in tension. If you lose the top chord you effectively created a hinge, which the supports aren't designed to support. If you lose a stringer, it *could* standup. I don't see very many truss bridges with cross bracing anymore.

Some members are critical and some aren't as much. Pretty much like in buildings where you would rather lose a beam (not as critical) than a column.

 

[TheTony]

Originally posted by: Zedtom

Originally posted by: Wolfie
The piers that moved are on the north side of the bridge. Everything so far points to the southern side where it started. And from what I could tell, the southern pier did NOT move. If you saw it in person, you could almost see how it fell by the way it sits.

Where I work, I get a chance to be right where the action is. Being able to see the site up close. I have been to the site twice now the last couple days and to say the least, the pictures do NOT do it justice. To see the thing in person makes you understand how vast this whole thing is. It is a totaly awsome site to see.

Hey Wolfie, could you give us an ATOT eyewitness account? Are the police restricting civilians from getting closeup views or photographs?

Yes, they are restricting access and, to a certain extent, viewing . There's a pedestrian bridge just upriver from the 35W river crossing and it's closed, as well as any streets on either side of the river (St. Anthony Main and West River Parkway). The 10th Ave bridge is just downriver (plainly visible in many of the photos) but it is closed for safety and security reasons as well.

The one place I believe it is possible to see from is the Guthrie, but you cannot gain access without already having tickets for a show there.

It sounds like some folks tried to catch a glimpse from the Gold Medal park (just upriver on the West bank) but from what I've heard it doesn't provide a very good vantage point to see much.

That doesn't mean you can't get close enough to view things if you know where to go, but authorities are discouraging folks, obviously, to keep their access flowing smoothly.

I have not personally tried to get anywhere near the scene, though.

 

[TheTony]

Originally posted by: jandrews

Originally posted by: yuppiejr

Originally posted by: jandrews

Originally posted by: TheTony

Originally posted by: jandrews
Traffic was bad yesterday, there is a road called 494 that was backed up a good 4 miles longer than usual. They just built a new 4 lane bridge for 494 just this last year from 2 lanes before. If the bridge was still 2 lanes traffic would have taken 3-4 hours to get across it, ridiculous. It even took me longer getting home going on 35e which usually has no stop and go traffic. It will be interesting to see how this develops.

I'm not sure how 494 would be impacted by 35, unless people are taking long detours. I'd imagine 280, 694 and 94 will see the most increase.

Granted, I think we'll see some patterns of what to expect, in the next days and weeks, as far as traffic is concerned.

Well I dont know what to tell you, apparently people work downtown and live in the suburbs which includes woodbury/cottage grove/hastings not sure why it would be affected but it sure was. It was more backed up than I have ever seen it in my life.

Interesting, I commute from the north-central outer ring burbs to downtown on 94 every day and noticed traffic was lighter than normal coming in the last two days and going home last night. I'll be curious to see if the pattern sticks next week but so far I was surprised how little impact this had on my commute times.

I think monday and tuesday of next week will really show us what to expect. I think a lot of people either took the two days off and fridays are always light on traffic. Monday/Tuesday people will be going back to work. If I worked in that area and had to add an extra hour to my drive time I would definately quit or move I couldnt take it. Time will tell I suppose but regardless of what happens my drive time should stay similar 15-20mins.

Sorry - I may have misunderstood your earlier mention of 494 - I didn't realize you meant 494 on the east side, near the Wakota bridge area. I can only guess that route is taking on more traffic that's being displaced by people who might normally be on 94 and looking for an alternate route. You're right though, next week will probably give a better idea of what to expect. And, for that matter, September should be interesting as well, when more school-related traffic returns to the roads.

Just goes to show how unpredictable traffic can be and what an interconnected system it really is. Personally, yesterday was easier than expected, and today slower (which isn't normally the case on a Friday).

 

[DrPizza]

Originally posted by: dmcowen674
A Barge hit the bridge in the Arkansas river causing the I-40 soan to collapse.

So, a barge can hit a piling and cause it to move, but a collapsing bridge surface cannot hit it and cause it to move?

 

[Wolfie]

Originally posted by: Zedtom

Originally posted by: Wolfie
The piers that moved are on the north side of the bridge. Everything so far points to the southern side where it started. And from what I could tell, the southern pier did NOT move. If you saw it in person, you could almost see how it fell by the way it sits.

Where I work, I get a chance to be right where the action is. Being able to see the site up close. I have been to the site twice now the last couple days and to say the least, the pictures do NOT do it justice. To see the thing in person makes you understand how vast this whole thing is. It is a totaly awsome site to see.

Hey Wolfie, could you give us an ATOT eyewitness account? Are the police restricting civilians from getting closeup views or photographs?

Yes, they are keeping Civilians back from the scene. It is almost impossible right now to get a good view of what is happening unless you know someone that lives in the riverside apartments on the south east side of the bridge. I only saw some things up close because of what I do for work. And let us just say that it wasn't easy to get where I was. Command center knows who goes in and who comes out. Photographes are being taken, and needless to say, I have forgoten to bring my camera to work to be able to take pictures. The best view you could possible have is from the 10th Ave bridge. But that is closed because of safety and they are using it kind of like a vantage point to see what is going on from above.

 

[wetcat007]

Originally posted by: TheTony

Originally posted by: jandrews
Traffic was bad yesterday, there is a road called 494 that was backed up a good 4 miles longer than usual. They just built a new 4 lane bridge for 494 just this last year from 2 lanes before. If the bridge was still 2 lanes traffic would have taken 3-4 hours to get across it, ridiculous. It even took me longer getting home going on 35e which usually has no stop and go traffic. It will be interesting to see how this develops.

I'm not sure how 494 would be impacted by 35, unless people are taking long detours. I'd imagine 280, 694 and 94 will see the most increase.

Granted, I think we'll see some patterns of what to expect, in the next days and weeks, as far as traffic is concerned.

I know a lot of people who were taking some long detours on 494 worried about other routes. Normally 494 traffic moves along fairly well only clogging up in Richfield and Maple Grove, this is in my experiences anyways.

 

[dmcowen674]

Originally posted by: DrPizza

Originally posted by: dmcowen674
A Barge hit the bridge in the Arkansas river causing the I-40 span to collapse.

So, a barge can hit a piling and cause it to move, but a collapsing bridge surface cannot hit it and cause it to move?

Two different kinds of moves.

Below surface Vs above surface.

Of those Barge hits I would expect the part anchored deep in the earth to not move.

 

[dmcowen674]

Originally posted by: Wolfie

Originally posted by: Zedtom

Originally posted by: Wolfie
The piers that moved are on the north side of the bridge. Everything so far points to the southern side where it started. And from what I could tell, the southern pier did NOT move. If you saw it in person, you could almost see how it fell by the way it sits.

Where I work, I get a chance to be right where the action is. Being able to see the site up close. I have been to the site twice now the last couple days and to say the least, the pictures do NOT do it justice. To see the thing in person makes you understand how vast this whole thing is. It is a totaly awsome site to see.

Hey Wolfie, could you give us an ATOT eyewitness account? Are the police restricting civilians from getting closeup views or photographs?

Yes, they are keeping Civilians back from the scene. It is almost impossible right now to get a good view of what is happening unless you know someone that lives in the riverside apartments on the south east side of the bridge. I only saw some things up close because of what I do for work. And let us just say that it wasn't easy to get where I was. Command center knows who goes in and who comes out. Photographes are being taken, and needless to say, I have forgoten to bring my camera to work to be able to take pictures. The best view you could possible have is from the 10th Ave bridge. But that is closed because of safety and they are using it kind of like a vantage point to see what is going on from above.

Well you guys are going to have evn a lot more access restriction since Bush is on his way up. He'll get that bridge re-built right away just like he did New Orleans.

 

[KrillBee]

so if i want to get a good view of this tomorrow where is the best bet for me to go? riverside apartments or the guthrie? sound like tough places to get into, lol.

 

[Wolfie]

Originally posted by: KrillBee
so if i want to get a good view of this tomorrow where is the best bet for me to go? riverside apartments or the guthrie? sound like tough places to get into, lol.

Anywhere you go it will be hard to see anything extensive. You can see a little bit from University Ave where all the media is. Otherwise, they have the arch bridge shut down, 10th Ave closed and you can't really see much from Washington Ave road. I have a feeling that they will lax some of the restrictions when they start to do the clean up.