35W Bridge Collapses in Minneapolis - 8 Lanes, 4 in use

[dmcowen674]

Originally posted by: Rubycon

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

That was no CAT 3, do not believe Government lies.

The Saffir-Simpson scale is based upon surface wind speeds and in fact is a dated metric on determining what kind of damage a hurricane will do. It can generally be agreed that the relationship between storm surge and wind speed is relative however this storm was much stronger at an earlier point. It had time to push much more water into a confined area before landfall. So even if at landfall the wind speeds were indeed CAT3 strength the storm surge and duration were probably much closer to a strong CAT4 storm.

Florida residents that remember Wilma in 2005 will also tell you that it seemed much worse than a strong CAT2. This storm was historic in terms of central pressure and wind speed. (Cozumel is still rebuilding from that one)

The point is if Katrina was only a CAT3 at its strongest and made landfall as a CAT3 the damage would not have been as widespread and the storm surge not nearly as destructive.

Newer software is in testing stages that will take all this into account and produce a factor that will be translated into a newly devised warning system (hopefully) - providing funding for it does not get cut.

There was an apartment complex by Pass Christian that had a 25 ft line on the side of the building where the surge was when Camille hit.

There was nothing but slabs left where the apartment complex used to be after Katrina.

A few trees survived with a water line at 35ft.

Cat 3 my ass

 

[JetBlack69]

CNN is reporting that the death toll has dropped to 4.

 

[dmcowen674]

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Originally posted by: RedArmy
This sounds completely retarded but regarding the Tacoma Narrows Bridge that collapsed under a type of aeroelastic flutter, is it possible that the downfall of the I-35W had anything to do with a forced resonance of sorts?

I know that Mythbusters debunked Tesla's claim about his earthquake machine saying that it could destroy a bridge if it matched the natural frequency of the bridge and was given enough time, but they said specifically that modern bridges were built with this taken into account. I'm not sure about the guidelines for building a bridge in the 1960's though.

I already see what was the downfall of this bridge.

Look at the cement base supports.

They moved.

I don't care how much the metal frame flexes, the cement bases should've never moved.

That means they were not deep enough.

Back to the topic at hand.

There has been quite a bit of longitude and latitudal shifting along the New Madrid fault.

Longtitude just an hour before was a shift at Ridley Tennesse down river.

Latitude something is going on off the coast of Oregon the last two weeks with consistent 5.1 shakes.

California and Mt St Helens look out.

 

[Rubycon]

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

There was an apartment complex by Pass Christian that had a 25 ft line on the side of the building where the surge was when Camille hit.

There was nothing but slabs left where the apartment complex used to be after Katrina.

A few trees survived with a water line at 35ft.

Cat 3 my ass

Again you're missing the point. The slabs were moved by water not wind. The Saffir-Simpson scale measures strength by wind speed. The dynamics involved between two different storms under different conditions are not going to be covered by comparing a simple number produced by a scale of strength based on average eyewall wind velocities at a given time.

A truck moving at 55 mph will do a lot more damage when it hits something than a car moving at the same speed. Katrina was a truck.

 

[feralkid]

Originally posted by: BoberFett

Originally posted by: feralkid

Originally posted by: BoberFett

Originally posted by: Electric Mayhem
I'm a structural engineer, but I work on railroad bridges, old (100 years +) and new.

It's not a secret that our country is in severe need of funding for thousands of bridge repairs and replacements, large and small, across the country, both railroad and traffic. I'm sad to say that a tragedy like this may be what's needed to get our citizens' and lawmakers' eyes to open up.

It's very shocking to see something like this. From what I read it sounds like fatigue cracks were present that ma have been a main factor. But it's too early to tell....there appear to be different types of structures and multiple spans collapsed.

At least Minneapolis will be getting a new f@#$ing baseball stadium. F@#$ politicians and their priorities.

35W is a Federal Highway. The fact that Minneapolis is building a new stadium has nothing to do with Federal Highway funds.

Using a tragedy like this to make cheap, misguided political jabs makes you an asshat of the highest magnitude.

Actually, the asshat would be the moron who thinks our freeways are 100% federally funded. Do you honestly believe city/state money doesn't get used on freeways?

Moron?

The feds control the project, the state and city pony up a smaller percentage; that doesn't excuse your ghoulish exploitation of this tragedy to make political points.

 

[Finalnight]

Just drove by it on University Ave on my way in and saw all the news anchors and satellite trucks doing their live feeds, was only a few feet away, traffic was suprisingly good, and there were about 20 MPD there to keep gawkers from slowing things up. I saw all the crushed/damaged cars.

 

[Don Vito Corleone]

Originally posted by: Rubycon

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

There was an apartment complex by Pass Christian that had a 25 ft line on the side of the building where the surge was when Camille hit.

There was nothing but slabs left where the apartment complex used to be after Katrina.

A few trees survived with a water line at 35ft.

Cat 3 my ass

Again you're missing the point. The slabs were moved by water not wind. The Saffir-Simpson scale measures strength by wind speed. The dynamics involved between two different storms under different conditions are not going to be covered by comparing a simple number produced by a scale of strength based on average eyewall wind velocities at a given time.

A truck moving at 55 mph will do a lot more damage when it hits something than a car moving at the same speed. Katrina was a truck.

Good luck convincing Dave - there is NOTHING that can't be blamed on a government conspiracy in his world.

 

[sierrita]

Originally posted by: BoberFett

Originally posted by: Electric Mayhem
I'm a structural engineer, but I work on railroad bridges, old (100 years +) and new.

It's not a secret that our country is in severe need of funding for thousands of bridge repairs and replacements, large and small, across the country, both railroad and traffic. I'm sad to say that a tragedy like this may be what's needed to get our citizens' and lawmakers' eyes to open up.

It's very shocking to see something like this. From what I read it sounds like fatigue cracks were present that ma have been a main factor. But it's too early to tell....there appear to be different types of structures and multiple spans collapsed.

At least Minneapolis will be getting a new f@#$ing baseball stadium. F@#$ politicians and their priorities.

Jesus Titty-fukking Christ; do you mind if we recover the dead before you try to blame this tragedy on the Metropolitan Sports Commission?

Would almost be laughably dopey if it weren't so tastelessly callous.

You sir are sick.

:thumbsdown:

 

[sao123]

our transportation infrastructure really is p1ss poor...and with our transportation funding depleted nationwide... im surprised we dont see this more often...

 

[alphatarget1]

For those of you complaining about public transportation system: I don't know how Minneapolis is, but an effective public transportation system is the only way to take cars off of roads. Expanding lanes will mean new structures, which takes time to build and when that gets saturated you'll have to build new ones.

 

[A5]

Originally posted by: Rubycon

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

There was an apartment complex by Pass Christian that had a 25 ft line on the side of the building where the surge was when Camille hit.

There was nothing but slabs left where the apartment complex used to be after Katrina.

A few trees survived with a water line at 35ft.

Cat 3 my ass

Again you're missing the point. The slabs were moved by water not wind. The Saffir-Simpson scale measures strength by wind speed. The dynamics involved between two different storms under different conditions are not going to be covered by comparing a simple number produced by a scale of strength based on average eyewall wind velocities at a given time.

A truck moving at 55 mph will do a lot more damage when it hits something than a car moving at the same speed. Katrina was a truck.

I was about to post this, but you already said it for me.

 

[LegendKiller]

Originally posted by: sierrita

Originally posted by: BoberFett

Originally posted by: Electric Mayhem
I'm a structural engineer, but I work on railroad bridges, old (100 years +) and new.

It's not a secret that our country is in severe need of funding for thousands of bridge repairs and replacements, large and small, across the country, both railroad and traffic. I'm sad to say that a tragedy like this may be what's needed to get our citizens' and lawmakers' eyes to open up.

It's very shocking to see something like this. From what I read it sounds like fatigue cracks were present that ma have been a main factor. But it's too early to tell....there appear to be different types of structures and multiple spans collapsed.

At least Minneapolis will be getting a new f@#$ing baseball stadium. F@#$ politicians and their priorities.

Jesus Titty-fukking Christ; do you mind if we recover the dead before you try to blame this tragedy on the Metropolitan Sports Commission?

Would almost be laughably dopey if it weren't so tastelessly callous.

You sir are sick.

:thumbsdown:

After being in the building that was next to the steampipe explosion in Manhattan and not being able to access the building for a week and then having my sister drive over that 35W bridge 8min before it collapsed and having been in the 82nd floor elevator of the Empire State Building in Aug 2003 when the East Coast Blackout happened, I can damn sure tell you that our funding priorities in this country are completely out of alignment with reality.

We have a finite amount of resources and they are being wasted in endevours that matter little. I have been personally involved in three major events in the last 4 years that highlight the fact that our infrastructure is degrading rapidly. People are dying, money is being wasted, yet all we can think of is stupid ways to use our resources.

There should be a howl of anger coming out of the cities, not a whimper of grief.

 

[Rubycon]

caught on security camera :Q

 

[imported_Imp]

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Originally posted by: RedArmy
This sounds completely retarded but regarding the Tacoma Narrows Bridge that collapsed under a type of aeroelastic flutter, is it possible that the downfall of the I-35W had anything to do with a forced resonance of sorts?

I know that Mythbusters debunked Tesla's claim about his earthquake machine saying that it could destroy a bridge if it matched the natural frequency of the bridge and was given enough time, but they said specifically that modern bridges were built with this taken into account. I'm not sure about the guidelines for building a bridge in the 1960's though.

I already see what was the downfall of this bridge.

Look at the cement base supports.

They moved.

I don't care how much the metal frame flexes, the cement bases should've never moved.

That means they were not deep enough.

Ya, my moneys on those supports too. Everything but that section just fell straight down, which seems reasonable if slabs on their supports stopped "recieving" a counter-moment. That's the only part of the bridge that moved a significant amount laterally. Either the column shifted (settling or falure) or the steel truss members in that section failed.

Also, not really relevant to what happened, but there was a shot of a concrete beam, possibly T-beam, that got sheared right down the middle longitudinally: kinda cool from a civil engineering student's perspective.

 

[K1052]

Originally posted by: LegendKiller

Originally posted by: sierrita

Originally posted by: BoberFett

Originally posted by: Electric Mayhem
I'm a structural engineer, but I work on railroad bridges, old (100 years +) and new.

It's not a secret that our country is in severe need of funding for thousands of bridge repairs and replacements, large and small, across the country, both railroad and traffic. I'm sad to say that a tragedy like this may be what's needed to get our citizens' and lawmakers' eyes to open up.

It's very shocking to see something like this. From what I read it sounds like fatigue cracks were present that ma have been a main factor. But it's too early to tell....there appear to be different types of structures and multiple spans collapsed.

At least Minneapolis will be getting a new f@#$ing baseball stadium. F@#$ politicians and their priorities.

Jesus Titty-fukking Christ; do you mind if we recover the dead before you try to blame this tragedy on the Metropolitan Sports Commission?

Would almost be laughably dopey if it weren't so tastelessly callous.

You sir are sick.

:thumbsdown:

After being in the building that was next to the steampipe explosion in Manhattan and not being able to access the building for a week and then having my sister drive over that 35W bridge 8min before it collapsed and having been in the 82nd floor elevator of the Empire State Building in Aug 2003 when the East Coast Blackout happened, I can damn sure tell you that our funding priorities in this country are completely out of alignment with reality.

We have a finite amount of resources and they are being wasted in endevours that matter little. I have been personally involved in three major events in the last 4 years that highlight the fact that our infrastructure is degrading rapidly. People are dying, money is being wasted, yet all we can think of is stupid ways to use our resources.

There should be a howl of anger coming out of the cities, not a whimper of grief.

It is a lot easier to drum up support/funding for more glamorous programs than infrastructure replacement which is extremely costly and you bury most of it in the ground.

The vast majority of people simply don't care (and usually don't want to spend money) until it breaks and the choices made in government merely reflect this.

 

[Don Vito Corleone]

My commute in from NE Mpls, which would traditionally take 10 minutes or so (I go down Central Ave) took nearly 40 today. Sadly I'm afraid it may be that way, more or less, for a LONG time. On the plus side, it will motivate me to ride my bike to work more often.

 

[LegendKiller]

Originally posted by: K1052

Originally posted by: LegendKiller

Originally posted by: sierrita

Originally posted by: BoberFett

Originally posted by: Electric Mayhem
I'm a structural engineer, but I work on railroad bridges, old (100 years +) and new.

It's not a secret that our country is in severe need of funding for thousands of bridge repairs and replacements, large and small, across the country, both railroad and traffic. I'm sad to say that a tragedy like this may be what's needed to get our citizens' and lawmakers' eyes to open up.

It's very shocking to see something like this. From what I read it sounds like fatigue cracks were present that ma have been a main factor. But it's too early to tell....there appear to be different types of structures and multiple spans collapsed.

At least Minneapolis will be getting a new f@#$ing baseball stadium. F@#$ politicians and their priorities.

Jesus Titty-fukking Christ; do you mind if we recover the dead before you try to blame this tragedy on the Metropolitan Sports Commission?

Would almost be laughably dopey if it weren't so tastelessly callous.

You sir are sick.

:thumbsdown:

After being in the building that was next to the steampipe explosion in Manhattan and not being able to access the building for a week and then having my sister drive over that 35W bridge 8min before it collapsed and having been in the 82nd floor elevator of the Empire State Building in Aug 2003 when the East Coast Blackout happened, I can damn sure tell you that our funding priorities in this country are completely out of alignment with reality.

We have a finite amount of resources and they are being wasted in endevours that matter little. I have been personally involved in three major events in the last 4 years that highlight the fact that our infrastructure is degrading rapidly. People are dying, money is being wasted, yet all we can think of is stupid ways to use our resources.

There should be a howl of anger coming out of the cities, not a whimper of grief.

It is a lot easier to drum up support/funding for more glamorous programs than infrastructure replacement which is extremely costly and you bury most of it in the ground.

The vast majority of people simply don't care (and usually don't want to spend money) until it breaks and the choices made in government merely reflect this.

I certainly agree with that. People go for flashy projects which make money. Our policies for the past 4 years have proven that.

 

[Darwin333]

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Originally posted by: Darwin333

New Orleans was hit by a Cat 3 hurricane.

The levees where supposedly built to withstand a Cat 3 with a safety factor on top of that. Shoddy construction and design changes supervised by the COE caused the levees to fail.

New Orleans was very much an engineering failure.

I was there and had been through many Hurricanes before Katrina as I lived on the East Coast before New Orelans.

That was no CAT 3, do not believe Government lies.

I was there to bud. A few miles from the superdoom itself. I have been through more storms than I can remember and I have saw no reason to believe that it was a cat 4 or 5 storm. Hell, we actually dodged a bullet as far as getting "hit" by Katrina.

I am also in the construction industry. I have estimated and repaired a ton of the wind damage caused by Katrina and from a wind aspect it was no Cat 4 or 5. Very very few structures in the New Orleans area suffered catastrophic wind damage that is seen in Cat 4/5 storms. Hell, I only lost a few shingles, patio cover and some moderate damage to my shed.

 

[BoberFett]

Originally posted by: sierrita
Jesus Titty-fukking Christ; do you mind if we recover the dead before you try to blame this tragedy on the Metropolitan Sports Commission?

Would almost be laughably dopey if it weren't so tastelessly callous.

You sir are sick.

:thumbsdown:

We? Who is we? I live in Minneapolis, do you? Kiss my ass you insignificant worm.

 

[GDaddy]

Originally posted by: BoberFett

Originally posted by: sierrita
Jesus Titty-fukking Christ; do you mind if we recover the dead before you try to blame this tragedy on the Metropolitan Sports Commission?

Would almost be laughably dopey if it weren't so tastelessly callous.

You sir are sick.

:thumbsdown:

We? Who is we? I live in Minneapolis, do you? Kiss my ass you insignificant worm.

So do i, and my first thought when i read your first post, now how much of a spaz this guy must be to be so jealous of sports that he blames this tradgey on a stadium. Pull your head out, i know it is warm and comfortable in there, but come on.

 

[Jeff7]

Originally posted by: K1052

Originally posted by: LegendKiller
After being in the building that was next to the steampipe explosion in Manhattan and not being able to access the building for a week and then having my sister drive over that 35W bridge 8min before it collapsed and having been in the 82nd floor elevator of the Empire State Building in Aug 2003 when the East Coast Blackout happened, I can damn sure tell you that our funding priorities in this country are completely out of alignment with reality.

We have a finite amount of resources and they are being wasted in endevours that matter little. I have been personally involved in three major events in the last 4 years that highlight the fact that our infrastructure is degrading rapidly. People are dying, money is being wasted, yet all we can think of is stupid ways to use our resources.

There should be a howl of anger coming out of the cities, not a whimper of grief.

It is a lot easier to drum up support/funding for more glamorous programs than infrastructure replacement which is extremely costly and you bury most of it in the ground.

The vast majority of people simply don't care (and usually don't want to spend money) until it breaks and the choices made in government merely reflect this.

Indeed, we do then truly have a representative government.

Another system that's degraded: power distribution. A nearby substation that serves a town and possibly the region around doesn't inspire confidence, as everything in it is rusting. Electricity demand continues to increase, and while power plants are being built, the infrastructure to get all that power out to customers just stays the same, all in the name of increasing profits for the power companies.

 

[alphatarget1]

Originally posted by: feralkid

Originally posted by: BoberFett

Originally posted by: feralkid

Originally posted by: BoberFett

Originally posted by: Electric Mayhem
I'm a structural engineer, but I work on railroad bridges, old (100 years +) and new.

It's not a secret that our country is in severe need of funding for thousands of bridge repairs and replacements, large and small, across the country, both railroad and traffic. I'm sad to say that a tragedy like this may be what's needed to get our citizens' and lawmakers' eyes to open up.

It's very shocking to see something like this. From what I read it sounds like fatigue cracks were present that ma have been a main factor. But it's too early to tell....there appear to be different types of structures and multiple spans collapsed.

At least Minneapolis will be getting a new f@#$ing baseball stadium. F@#$ politicians and their priorities.

35W is a Federal Highway. The fact that Minneapolis is building a new stadium has nothing to do with Federal Highway funds.

Using a tragedy like this to make cheap, misguided political jabs makes you an asshat of the highest magnitude.

Actually, the asshat would be the moron who thinks our freeways are 100% federally funded. Do you honestly believe city/state money doesn't get used on freeways?

Moron?

The feds control the project, the state and city pony up a smaller percentage; that doesn't excuse your ghoulish exploitation of this tragedy to make political points.

Interstate highways are maintained by DOTs of the states they're in. They get federal fundings.

 

[rh71]

I am honestly worried every time I cross a bridge in NYC (and there are many). Especially the Manhattan Bridge. That thing looks old as $#!t.

Besides, a terrorist could so target a bridge at one small point and cause major havoc for thousands.

 

[K1052]

Originally posted by: rh71
I am honestly worried every time I cross a bridge in NYC (and there are many). Especially the Manhattan Bridge. That thing looks old as $#!t.

Besides, a terrorist could so target a bridge at one small point and cause major havoc for thousands.

IIRC the Manhattan Bridge has some relatively serious structural issues from its design.

It is actually slightly younger than many of the other bridges serving the area.

 

[LegendKiller]

Originally posted by: Jeff7

Originally posted by: K1052

Originally posted by: LegendKiller
After being in the building that was next to the steampipe explosion in Manhattan and not being able to access the building for a week and then having my sister drive over that 35W bridge 8min before it collapsed and having been in the 82nd floor elevator of the Empire State Building in Aug 2003 when the East Coast Blackout happened, I can damn sure tell you that our funding priorities in this country are completely out of alignment with reality.

We have a finite amount of resources and they are being wasted in endevours that matter little. I have been personally involved in three major events in the last 4 years that highlight the fact that our infrastructure is degrading rapidly. People are dying, money is being wasted, yet all we can think of is stupid ways to use our resources.

There should be a howl of anger coming out of the cities, not a whimper of grief.

It is a lot easier to drum up support/funding for more glamorous programs than infrastructure replacement which is extremely costly and you bury most of it in the ground.

The vast majority of people simply don't care (and usually don't want to spend money) until it breaks and the choices made in government merely reflect this.

Indeed, we do then truly have a representative government.

Another system that's degraded: power distribution. A nearby substation that serves a town and possibly the region around doesn't inspire confidence, as everything in it is rusting. Electricity demand continues to increase, and while power plants are being built, the infrastructure to get all that power out to customers just stays the same, all in the name of increasing profits for the power companies.

Which is why I was stuck at the top of the ESB in Aug 2003. Do you know how much that blackout sucked? All because our infrastructure blows.