3 boys sexually assault girl, get 30 days.

[Phokus]

Believe what you like about conservatives, plunk them all into one pot. You'll be wrong, you don't know me but nothing I can say would ever change your mind. Simple as that.

Obviously you won't change my mind until a major shift happens within your movement, but that would never happen. I can paint conservatives with a broad brush because the market has spoken, just look at rightwing media, you can make a lot of money being a complete douchebag who says really reprehensible shit. It's almost a requirement that you be a complete asshole to be successful. If 'non-asshole' conservatives wanted to be taken seriously, you would have split from the party already, but nope, you double down and now the Tea Party is a major player and amped up the asshole factor by a hundred.

 

[Vic]

Hear that nehalem? All you have to do around here to be considered Hitler, a sociopath, a horrible monster, a misogynist, and someone we're all likely to eventually see the face of on every news channel...

... is to treat women exactly the same way men are treated. Which ironically is what liberals always CLAIM they want.

You're exactly right about a teenage boy trying to tell anyone he'd been "raped" because some girls messed with his wang after he blacked out from drinking too much at a party. If he pushed it through the right channels, sure he could get the legal apparatus to consider it rape... but pretty much nobody in his family or circle of friends would think it was, and he'd be looked at as a complete clown for having tried to say it was at his school, etc. The girls wouldn't exactly be doing hard time, either.

Is that right? Does our society need to push how it views things like that happening to men closer to how it views it with women? Or is it the other way around? I'm not entirely sure, honestly. I don't know what exactly the appropriate balance is on this sort of thing.

What I do know, is that as it stands currently, modern liberal society has some very weird double standards about this sort of thing, and unlike traditional society of decades past, who also viewed things happening to men and women very differently, this current society has no valid excuse for doing so. Society back then was clear and on the same page start to finish. They were more protective of women because they viewed women as more delicate, more in need of protection, and not as able to endure harsh realities and circumstances as men. This modern society on the other hand, insists that gender is basically just a social construct, and entirely an artifact of how we raise boys vs. how we raise girls... and that women should be viewed and treated as exactly identical to men. Even those who acknowledge there are real, palpable differences still claim they think treatment should be identical.

I also know that as you've pointed out, the changes our society has made on how it treats sexuality and morality in general will predictably lead to this kind of stuff happening.

And I also agree with what you said about perspective influencing the trauma level. I think this girl would have been MUCH less likely to commit suicide over this if attitudes like the ones on display in this thread (OMG the world has just ended!!!) weren't the norm.

Holy strawman, batman!

If the exact same incident happened to a boy, my opinion would be completely unchanged, even if the assailants were girls.
Please show me an example where someone said differently.

Just because a person makes a bad choice and exposes themselves to the possibility of criminal behavior against them does not excuse and/or justify that behavior.
For example, if someone leaves their car unlocked that does not mean it's okay for you to steal it.
Likewise, if someone makes the bad choice of drinking too much that does mean it's okay for you to abuse them.

All moral principle is derived from the idea that one should not treat others as they themselves would not wish to be treated. If you do not understand this, that would be because you lack morals.
This isn't some modern liberal standard either, it's in the bible.

 

[Londo_Jowo]

Politicians are generally not interested in truth if it interferes with their bottom line. They'll use any means necessary, lies, cheating, and stealing to push their agenda. That's the nature of the people we are dealing with at the top of any political party

FTFY

 

[MrPickins]

Case in point from this very thread:


Its obvious to anyone that can think that if a 15 year old boy claimed he was raped because some of his female classmates touched his junk while he was drunk that he would be ridiculed. Perhaps some insults involving him being "queer" would be thrown around

I also asked you in this same thread if you'd think it was a prank if you woke up to found this lady fondling your junk:

You declined to answer.


You want to know why I changed it from women to gay men in my analogy? Because it's obvious that you have issues with empathy, and can't understand how terrible a crime it was that these boys perpetrated against this girl.

So, I changed it to something I knew would make you personally feel a lot more degraded for than the direct comparison. Trying to add a scale factor, as it were.

 

[Geosurface]

If the exact same incident happened to a boy, my opinion would be completely unchanged, even if the assailants were girls.
Please show me an example where someone said differently.

If you think the level of outrage within the local community, and on Huffington Post, and on any thread which got created here (if one did get created) about such an incident would be equivalent... you're fooling yourself. You know that our society views it differently. Same with female teachers molesting male students.

Just because a person makes a bad choice and exposes themselves to the possibility of criminal behavior against them does not excuse and/or justify that behavior.
For example, if someone leaves their car unlocked does not mean it's okay for you to steal it.
Likewise, if someone makes the bad choice of drinking too much does mean it's okay for you to abuse them.

Absolutely. Just like if I make the bad choice of walking through Detroit at 3am with hundred dollar bills taped to my body, it doesn't mean it's okay for anyone to assault me or rob me.

But why is it you seem to think that when someone points out behavioral choices which could have contributed to something bad happening, or societal shifts which could have, that they're giving their stamp of approval to the bad thing which happened? That's not remotely the case. That's childish, simplistic thinking.

All moral principle is derived from the idea that one should not treat others as they themselves would not wish to be treated. If you do not understand this, that would be because you lack morals.
This isn't some modern liberal standard either, it's in the bible.

It pre-dates the Bible, which I am not a follower of. And I've said nothing which would lead a reasonable person to doubt that I was aware of the golden rule.

 

[nehalem256]

Still a sexual assault.

How about if this lady messed with you while you were asleep?

Eating my leg isn't sexual assault :awe:

 

[MrPickins]

Eating my leg isn't sexual assault :awe:

Answer the question.

 

[zinfamous]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_by_gender#Rape_of_males_by_females

"usually a woman" from "1 in 24 men" (4.8% of men)

so, basically, around 2% of men have reported being raped by a woman.

 

[Geosurface]

"usually a woman" from "1 in 24 men" (4.8% of men)

so, basically, around 2% of men have reported being raped by a woman.

Pressure to engage in sexual activity from women is extremely common in the experience of a great number of men, myself included.

Men don't tend to perceive this as anything other than a natural part of being in a relationship (both peoples' level of interest is not always going to be identical) but according to modern liberal standards as applied to the same situation when the genders are reversed, it is rape.

 

[MrPickins]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_by_gender#Rape_of_males_by_females

You left out the part I mentioned about the psychological effects on men who have been raped vs women.

I stand by my analogy, and think it's telling that nehalem wont answer.

 

[MrPickins]

Pressure to engage in sexual activity from women is extremely common in the experience of a great number of men, myself included.

Men don't tend to perceive this as anything other than a natural part of being in a relationship (both peoples' level of interest is not always going to be identical) but according to modern liberal standards as applied to the same situation when the genders are reversed, it is rape.

What are you on about?

We're talking about a girl who was violated while drunk, not someone's lady friend asking them to poke her on a Saturday night.

 

[Geosurface]

What are you on about?

We're talking about a girl who was violated while drunk, not someone's lady friend asking them to poke her on a Saturday night.

Conversational drift. Not every post is an exact reference or analogy to the story the thread is about. Merely pointing out that the idea that women never, or nearly never rape men is not true, particularly when using modern (absurd) liberal standards of what constitutes rape.

Same is true of domestic violence, which actually has gender parity in offenders.

 

[Exophase]

Pressure to engage in sexual activity from women is extremely common in the experience of a great number of men, myself included.

Men don't tend to perceive this as anything other than a natural part of being in a relationship (both peoples' level of interest is not always going to be identical) but according to modern liberal standards as applied to the same situation when the genders are reversed, it is rape.

Why are you insisting on these liberal standards that no one has mentioned? You asked someone to be a little more nuanced and less pigeonholing in their political labeling but it looks like you're doing the same sort of thing. Frankly I'm sick to death of reading what feels like every other post here brushing very broad strokes of exaggerated viewpoints held by these so-called liberals or conservatives. I kind of wish there were separate politics and news forums here, although I doubt that'd actually change anything.

And why is pressuring people to have sex even entering into this thread? That's not related to the incident that happened at all.

 

[woolfe9998]

"usually a woman" from "1 in 24 men" (4.8% of men)

so, basically, around 2% of men have reported being raped by a woman.

You concede far too much. Re-read the sentence he quoted from wiki. There are three phenomena described in that sentence. In only the first of the three is the perpetrator "usually a women."

 

[Geosurface]

Why are you insisting on these liberal standards that no one has mentioned? You asked someone to be a little more nuanced and less pigeonholing in their political labeling but it looks like you're doing the same sort of thing. Frankly I'm sick to death of reading what feels like every other post here brushing very broad strokes of exaggerated viewpoints held by these so-called liberals or conservatives. I kind of wish there were separate politics and news forums here, although I doubt that'd actually change anything.

And why is pressuring people to have sex even entering into this thread? That's not related to the incident that happened at all.

Just a tangent.

And I'm merely trying to point out that liberalism and feminism have taken us as a society to a ridiculous place in how we think about gender, sex, rape, and many other things. I'm not demonizing liberals, because largely I think this has happened due to good motives, but good motives which have been allowed to run completely rampant.

 

[Vic]

If you think the level of outrage within the local community, and on Huffington Post, and on any thread which got created here (if one did get created) about such an incident would be equivalent... you're fooling yourself. You know that our society views it differently. Same with female teachers molesting male students.



Absolutely. Just like if I make the bad choice of walking through Detroit at 3am with hundred dollar bills taped to my body, it doesn't mean it's okay for anyone to assault me or rob me.

But why is it you seem to think that when someone points out behavioral choices which could have contributed to something bad happening, or societal shifts which could have, that they're giving their stamp of approval to the bad thing which happened? That's not remotely the case. That's childish, simplistic thinking.



It pre-dates the Bible, which I am not a follower of. And I've said nothing which would lead a reasonable person to doubt that I was aware of the golden rule.

I recall a great deal outrage with similar cases involving female assailants, particularly Mary Kay Letourneau, who served 7 years for her crime. That's quite a bit longer than 30 days BTW.
It seems that the sheer amount of outrage here derives primarily from the leniency of the sentence, and in no way represents that anyone here believes that a girl should be allowed to get off scot free if she sexually assaulted a boy. I'd say that whole line of thinking is red herring on your part.

No amount of "they had it coming" excuses a criminal act. It is morally unacceptable to exploit someone criminally just because they left themselves vulnerable. If people might believe that you're giving your stamp of approval here, it's because you don't seem to understand that. The girl's bad choices are unfortunate, but irrelevant. It seems to me that the boys made some extremely bad choices as well.

And as the Golden Rule is usually attributed to Confucius, I agree that it does pre-dates the bible. I cited the bible in order to show how the Golden Rule is rooted in traditional American values.
You're defending Nehalem, who clearly doesn't understand the Golden Rule. That would of course cast reasonable doubt on yourself.

 

[MrPickins]

Just a tangent.

And I'm merely trying to point out that liberalism and feminism have taken us as a society to a ridiculous place in how we think about gender, sex, rape, and many other things. I'm not demonizing liberals, because largely I think this has happened due to good motives, but good motives which have been allowed to run completely rampant.

Yeah, it really sucks that things like marital rape are now illegal. Damn Liberals!





(I can go off on tangents myself, you know ())

 

[Geosurface]

Nehalem, who clearly doesn't understand the Golden Rule.

Explain to me how what he's said indicates he doesn't understand the golden rule?

Talking about how certain societal trends and personal choices contribute to bad things happening doesn't mean he thinks the boys should have done what they did, or that he doesn't understand "do unto others."

 

[Vic]

Explain to me how what he's said indicates he doesn't understand the golden rule?

Talking about how certain societal trends and personal choices contribute to bad things happening doesn't mean he thinks the boys should have done what they did, or that he doesn't understand "do unto others."

Have you even read the thread?

There is no societal trend here. Getting a girl drunk and then raping her is, unfortunately, nothing new. That you pretend that this is somehow the result of some modern liberal agenda is just ridiculous.

 

[highland145]

Obviously you won't change my mind

It's closed.

is like asking a conservative to stop being racist, homophobic, xenophobic, and illogical etc. Not going to happen.

"my movement"....lol

 

[Geosurface]

Have you even read the thread?

There is no societal trend here. Getting a girl drunk and then raping her is, unfortunately, nothing new. That you pretend that this is somehow the result of some modern liberal agenda is just ridiculous.

Would you agree that teens having unsupervised, mixed gender parties with drugs, alcohol and sex is more common since the 60's than it was prior? And that this could fairly be called a societal trend and could fairly be connected to the cultural revolution?

And would you agree that in a society where such things are more common, incidences like what happened to this girl will also be more common?

 

[Orignal Earl]

Would you agree that teens having unsupervised, mixed gender parties with drugs, alcohol and sex is more common since the 60's than it was prior? And that this could fairly be called a societal trend and could fairly be connected to the cultural revolution?

Would you agree that teens having unsupervised, mixed gender parties with drugs, alcohol and sex is more common since the 60's in China than it was prior? And that this could fairly be called a societal trend and could fairly be connected to the cultural revolution in China?

 

[Vic]

Would you agree that teens having unsupervised, mixed gender parties with drugs, alcohol and sex is more common since the 60's than it was prior? And that this could fairly be called a societal trend and could fairly be connected to the cultural revolution?

And would you agree that in a society where such things are more common, incidences like what happened to this girl will also be more common?

No. This kind of thing has been happening since humans first discovered alcohol. As with many traditionalists, you believe in a good ol days that never existed.
The only thing that's changed is that incidents like this used to be hush hush (ie send her to relatives in another town for 9 months) and now they're headlines. I for one prefer the latter.

Even assuming your argument though, why should such incidences be more common? Don't you believe that young boys should be properly raised to be gentlemen who wouldn't take advantage of a girl just because they can?
You and D-bag imply that the girl's choices indicate poor upbringing. What then, do the boys' choices indicate about their upbringing? Nothing good in my opinion. Rapists are the lowest form of scum.

 

[nehalem256]

If you think the level of outrage within the local community, and on Huffington Post, and on any thread which got created here (if one did get created) about such an incident would be equivalent... you're fooling yourself. You know that our society views it differently. Same with female teachers molesting male students.

Case in point from this very thread:

I changed it because this is one situation where men and women are different. Women almost never rape men and the emotional effects are likely to be much different.

A group gay man assaulting another man who has passed out is a more similar analogy.

Its obvious to anyone that can think that if a 15 year old boy claimed he was raped because some of his female classmates touched his junk while he was drunk that he would be ridiculed. Perhaps some insults involving him being "queer" would be thrown around

 

[Orignal Earl]

Case in point from this very thread:


Its obvious to anyone that can think that if a 15 year old boy claimed he was raped because some of his female classmates touched his junk while he was drunk that he would be ridiculed. Perhaps some insults involving him being "queer" would be thrown around

What if they put their fingers in his ass?