Discussion 2024 USA Election Thread: Biden and Dems might have problems in 2024 swing states - The Gaza Issue

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GodisanAtheist

Diamond Member
Nov 16, 2006
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@MrSquished so this thread is cool and all but what exactly is it you're looking for people to do here?

Yes, Biden is an incredibly weak incumbent and regardless of whatever metrics people are emotional beings that will be tapping into the general malaise that has settled over American life since the pandemic. This means that my fellow idiots might actually sit the election out or actually go vote for Trump, which would really fuck everything up.

So what's the call to action? I'm here in California and it'll be a cold day in hell if we go for Trump in '24, so I'm pretty content sitting back and watching the shit show unfold (I'll be voting, mind you, it just won't be moving any needles).
 
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pmv

Lifer
May 30, 2008
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NYT/Siena poll. https://www.nytimes.com/2023/11/05/us/politics/biden-trump-2024-poll.html

Nevada: Trump-52%, Biden 41%
Pennsylvania: Trump-48%, Biden-44%
Michigan: Trump-48%, Biden-43%
Arizona: Trump-49%, Biden-44%
Georgia: Trump-49%, Biden-43%
Wisconsin: Biden-47%, Trump-45%

Everything could change in 12 months, but these numbers are disturbing.

Like Jan 6 and overthrowing elections doesn't even matter to a good part of the country.

I'm completely agnostic about the question. It is still a long way to the election. Those numbers are not cheering, though. Regardless of what they say about the next election it's in itself shocking that so many Americans still support the coup klutz clown. Whoever wins, those people will still be out there.

The opposite sort-of-problem here. The Conservatives are still dismally behind in the polls, but, it's still a goddam eternity till an election. And there was some famous quote from a previous Labour leader about approaching the election like 'carefully carrying a porcelain vase to the finish line' or something like that, which feels entirely apposite.
 
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Leeea

Diamond Member
Apr 3, 2020
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So there are never exceptions to history? Also traditionally incumbents with this kind of a pool rate lose. Why does that history not matter?

This is also a pretty different political atmosphere than in the past. Also it's not guaranteed Trump will be the nominee. But even if he is it's still a 50/50 coin flip.

Do you really want to rely on certain historical things that you pick and choose and ignore others and also not taken to account that you need political atmosphere we are in now?

I personally think that's a mistake to make, apparently not to other people.
There are no alternates.

Taking an opposite policy on Israel is far worse because far more people support Israel in this then oppose it.


It is not about liking or not liking Biden, it is taking what we have and running with it. We don't have a choice in the political system we have. We all know it is shit. News flash: our founding fathers didn't know what they were doing. But what we have is better then nothing. Perhaps in time it can be improved, but for now, we work with what we have.
 

Leeea

Diamond Member
Apr 3, 2020
3,799
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I'm here in California and it'll be a cold day in hell if we go for Trump in '24, so I'm pretty content sitting back and watching the shit show unfold (I'll be voting, mind you, it just won't be moving any needles).
I am also a CA voter, but I am donating* into swing state elections. This is an important one, and I probably also going to try and phone bank into swing states also. Even if you don't have money you can swing the needle.

The one thing I am not going to do is sit this one out. This is when to win, right now, stop the history of the weimar republic from being repeated. It is all on the line.



*I have already had a meet and greet with one senator, which was pretty sweet.
 
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GodisanAtheist

Diamond Member
Nov 16, 2006
8,313
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There are no alternates.

Taking an opposite policy on Israel is far worse because far more people support Israel in this then oppose it.


It is not about liking or not liking Biden, it is taking what we have and running with it. We don't have a choice in the political system we have. We all know it is shit. News flash: our founding fathers didn't know what they were doing. But what we have is better then nothing. Perhaps in time it can be improved, but for now, we work with what we have.

-They did, they just weren't making some eglatarian utopia like we want to see the US today, and instead we're making a paradise for landed gentry free from the tyranny of the crown.

Every right and freedom anyone who is not a landed WASP male has is the result of a brutal progressive struggle toward the aspirations of the declaration of independence and away from the original language of the constitution.

DOI: All men are created equal and endowed with inalienable rights from the creator.

Constitution: Yo count black people as 3/5ths of a person otherwise Southern Whites won't have any political power in our little oligarchy.
 

K1052

Elite Member
Aug 21, 2003
52,601
46,251
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So there are never exceptions to history? Also traditionally incumbents with this kind of a pool rate lose. Why does that history not matter?

This is also a pretty different political atmosphere than in the past. Also it's not guaranteed Trump will be the nominee. But even if he is it's still a 50/50 coin flip.

Do you really want to rely on certain historical things that you pick and choose and ignore others and also not taken to account that you need political atmosphere we are in now?

I personally think that's a mistake to make, apparently not to other people.

There are always exceptions. I’m not convinced giving up that advantage for a candidate who literally does not exist is a good idea.

Trump is going to be the R nominee unless he dies.
 

pmv

Lifer
May 30, 2008
15,142
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-They did, they just weren't making some eglatarian utopia like we want to see the US today, and instead we're making a paradise for landed gentry free from the tyranny of the crown.

Every right and freedom anyone who is not a landed WASP male has is the result of a brutal progressive struggle toward the aspirations of the declaration of independence and away from the original language of the constitution.

DOI: All men are created equal and endowed with inalienable rights from the creator.

Constitution: Yo count black people as 3/5ths of a person otherwise Southern Whites won't have any political power in our little oligarchy.

Yeah, true. Though the other complicating factor is even within that, it was all a cobbled-together compromise between competing interest groups, partly, perhaps, motivated by sheer exhaustion and a desire to get the whole process over with and go to lunch.
 

MrSquished

Lifer
Jan 14, 2013
26,067
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There are always exceptions. I’m not convinced giving up that advantage for a candidate who literally does not exist is a good idea.

Trump is going to be the R nominee unless he dies.

I appreciate you writing that out. I think this is exactly why Dems lost some elections they shouldn't. They often play it safe, with candidates and elections on the federal level, and rhetoric. Little understanding of the power of emotion and inspiration to go along with good policy. The Democratic electorate has shown they respond to lesser known candidates that inspire - see Clinton, Bill and Obama. But they were not establishment choices.

If you don't think you have one better candidate than Biden in your entire party, then well, your fucking party sucks.
 

MrSquished

Lifer
Jan 14, 2013
26,067
24,395
136
There are no alternates.

Taking an opposite policy on Israel is far worse because far more people support Israel in this then oppose it.


It is not about liking or not liking Biden, it is taking what we have and running with it. We don't have a choice in the political system we have. We all know it is shit. News flash: our founding fathers didn't know what they were doing. But what we have is better then nothing. Perhaps in time it can be improved, but for now, we work with what we have.
So you think in the entire political party, there are no better options?

That says to me the Dem party is a failure. Personally I think they can do better than a coin flip. Apparently I'm naively positive about the Dems.
 

Leeea

Diamond Member
Apr 3, 2020
3,799
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So you think in the entire political party, there are no better options?

That says to me the Dem party is a failure. Personally I think they can do better than a coin flip. Apparently I'm naively positive about the Dems.
I think the entire political system in the US is a failure.

But we own it, to make that failure work. So lets make it work. Because option B is just to horrific to imagine. Both for ourselves and what we owe to humanity.



Letting it burn doesn't lead to a better world, letting it burn just repeats history. You don't need to speculate on that future, you already know what it is.
 

Indus

Lifer
May 11, 2002
15,964
11,107
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All I have to say is that if people elect Trump even partially on the basis that Biden is too uncaring about Gaza then this country deserves every single bit of what's going to happen both here and there.

Careful.. there's a very real feeling amongst all humans of nostalgia and good times gone by.

For example:


That gives rise to bad guys taking advantage. And how we all wonder, some people we thought we knew so well are actually Trumpanzees..

But to simplify it's just chasing the dragon even if they're sniffing that orange turd's lies!
 

kage69

Lifer
Jul 17, 2003
31,305
47,472
136
American muslims threatening not to vote for Biden has got to be one of the emptiest, lamest threats I've ever heard.

'Do as I say or I will pull the trigger on the horse pistol currently pointing at my foot!' Yes, quite intimidating.

I know this conflict is blowing everyone's minds with suffering and death, but if muslim Americans think a GQP administration is somehow going to improve things, here or in Israel, they really need to give eachother some sound slaps across the face. Wake the fuck up people. If you honestly believe Biden is worse than 4 years of christofascism under a traitor and wannabe dictator, then you're as lost and idiotic as the magats. Joe Biden is not your enemy, and he doesn't control Israel. Quit throwing your credibility in the trash.
 

MrSquished

Lifer
Jan 14, 2013
26,067
24,395
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American muslims threatening not to vote for Biden has got to be one of the emptiest, lamest threats I've ever heard.

'Do as I say or I will pull the trigger on the horse pistol currently pointing at my foot!' Yes, quite intimidating.

I know this conflict is blowing everyone's minds with suffering and death, but if muslim Americans think a GQP administration is somehow going to improve things, here or in Israel, they really need to give eachother some sound slaps across the face. Wake the fuck up people. If you honestly believe Biden is worse than 4 years of christofascism under a traitor and wannabe dictator, then you're as lost and idiotic as the magats. Joe Biden is not your enemy, and he doesn't control Israel. Quit throwing your credibility in the trash.

Do you think people vote against their interests sometimes whether by actually voting or just by not voting?

Does this happen yes or no?
 
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MrSquished

Lifer
Jan 14, 2013
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I think the entire political system in the US is a failure.

But we own it, to make that failure work. So lets make it work. Because option B is just to horrific to imagine. Both for ourselves and what we owe to humanity.



Letting it burn doesn't lead to a better world, letting it burn just repeats history. You don't need to speculate on that future, you already know what it is.

Who are you speaking to exactly? I'm not sure how this is a response to anything I've said.

I'm saying Joe Biden is a viable candidate but I give him 50/50 odds and I think the Democrats could do better. How is that burning anything down I'm really really confused here.

It's amazing when people think you feel your party can do better, you are somehow burning the system down. Crazy.
 
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Leeea

Diamond Member
Apr 3, 2020
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I'm saying Joe Biden is a viable candidate but I give him 50/50 odds and I think the Democrats could do better.
who would do better?

Newsom? Sorry, he wouldn't. CA resident here, I am familiar with his mismanagement. (unemployment sadness both unable to obtain and theft, covid relief ID issues, complete failure to address housing, homelessness. His kids get to go to school during covid one rule for him another for us. Mask-less parties during Covid. ). He is the product of party machine that does not have to face primaries*.


*its a top 2 system here, so if you don't vote for the anointed one, you risk having two republicans advance to the final round. Your thinking it wouldn't matter, but splitting the vote between 3 or more democrats results in that risk being rather real. In theory it sounds good, in practice it just makes the party machine excessively dominate and you get Senator Feinstein for life whether you like it or not.
 
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manly

Lifer
Jan 25, 2000
13,258
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Unless something very strange happens, Trump is roughly 75%+ to win the nom based on historical data (see 538). If anything, his position has strengthened over the past few months as Death Santis faded hard into a multi-way tie for second place.

Biden obviously faces headwinds, real and imagined but the sad thing is that many voters are utterly delusional about reality. We still have a 4% unemployment rate at most, and steady GDP growth while many advanced economies are muddling along. The statement that the economy isn't working for average folks is not very accurate, because significant wage growth over the past 5 years has been at the very bottom. Everyone feels the effects of inflation, and I won't dispute that has had a real impact. However household net worth is at an all time high, mainly because housing prices have defied gravity due to lack of inventory. I laugh anytime it's said that the housing market is stuck because too many homeowners are "trapped" into their 3.x% mortgage rates. Who wouldn't want to be in such an unfortunate predicament? :tearsofjoy: This isn't just the top 2% investor class, as many American families now have a lot of home equity built up. Obviously anybody invested in U.S. equities feels good about the big rally since March 2020.

The L.A. Times reviewed the state of Bidenomics on Friday (sorry about the paywall):

Last month, only 16% of U.S. adults said the economy was even “somewhat good,” according to the latest poll for the Associated Press conducted by NORC at the University of Chicago. More than 7 in 10 Americans labeled the economy as some level of poor, with 31% calling it “very poor.”
On balance, this shit just doesn't make any real sense. Obviously everything is tribalism and Trumpism nowadays but nearly the entirety of GOP voters have gone all in on the MAGA cult:
Who are those people? NORC found that 82% of Republicans who call their personal financial situation good view the economy poorly. Only 38% of Democrats with good personal finances say the same.

Certainly there are some other factors contributing to Biden's low approval ratings: the migrant crisis, his age+VP stand out. But if a bunch of people are saying "I'm doing well but the national economy isn't," I don't see how a candidate Newsom or Whitmer is the solution to that problem. And if the economy actually slows down in 6 months, we're probably sunk.

To some extent, the administration is also a victim of its own success. Its major legislative wins are somewhat longer-term investments and wonkish, and so average folks just don't care. Also, remember everyone was so gung ho about stimmy money in 2020-2021. But once the spigot was shut off, and inflation jumped, people are basically asking "so what have you done for me lately?"

To be clear, I'm as concerned as any person should be about the latest batch of polls. But I also have clear eyes and don't see a slam dunk alternative stashed on the sideline; we can't just check in a Michael Jordan superstar because he doesn't currently exist.
 
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eelw

Lifer
Dec 4, 1999
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who would do better?
Indeed who could do any different with first 2 years of Sin-chin blocking everything he wanted done. And now with a split congress. And I think world leaders still prefer to work with someone they’ve known for decades than a new POTUS.
 

MrSquished

Lifer
Jan 14, 2013
26,067
24,395
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@MrSquished so this thread is cool and all but what exactly is it you're looking for people to do here?

Yes, Biden is an incredibly weak incumbent and regardless of whatever metrics people are emotional beings that will be tapping into the general malaise that has settled over American life since the pandemic. This means that my fellow idiots might actually sit the election out or actually go vote for Trump, which would really fuck everything up.

So what's the call to action? I'm here in California and it'll be a cold day in hell if we go for Trump in '24, so I'm pretty content sitting back and watching the shit show unfold (I'll be voting, mind you, it just won't be moving any needles).
Like I said I still think Biden is a coin flip, so he is a viable candidate. No I do not think blue states are going to turn red. I'm worried about swing states and downballot races in any swing district in any state.

I am more worried about emotional stupid people just not voting for Biden.

I am not familiar with every potential presidential candidate that the Dems could put up. The main ones with larger brand names would be Whitmer, Newsom and Booker. There have to be a few good lesser known candidates out there and let's see what a primary does. Of course Biden would have to withdraw for 'health reasons' and endorse the primary. It has to look cohesive.

My point is basically if Democrats don't think out of the vast Democratic party, we have no better candidate than Joe Biden, I think that is terribly sad, insane and pathetic. And that means the Democratic party is a failure.

I seem to be the primary hopeless optimist here. I think the Dems CAN do better.
 
Dec 10, 2005
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How would a primary to replace Biden actually help here? The next candidate would have to make some claim that they aren't Biden despite being a Democrat and somehow differentiate their platform from what is basically the current Democratic platform and success stories over the last few years. Those obstacles seem pretty insurmountable - basically running a "not Biden" campaign, but then why wouldn't someone just vote GOP if that was the major selling point?
 

MrSquished

Lifer
Jan 14, 2013
26,067
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How would a primary to replace Biden actually help here? The next candidate would have to make some claim that they aren't Biden despite being a Democrat and somehow differentiate their platform from what is basically the current Democratic platform and success stories over the last few years. Those obstacles seem pretty insurmountable - basically running a "not Biden" campaign, but then why wouldn't someone just vote GOP if that was the major selling point?

I think running as a not Biden would be stupid. I have no idea why you think that has to be the way they have to run.

If you haven't noticed, the success stories are not resonating with voters, and in the Dem party too. Like I said, most people are not political junkies like us. If they were, Biden's polls would be much higher right now.
 

manly

Lifer
Jan 25, 2000
13,258
4,033
136
@MrSquished so this thread is cool and all but what exactly is it you're looking for people to do here?

Yes, Biden is an incredibly weak incumbent and regardless of whatever metrics people are emotional beings that will be tapping into the general malaise that has settled over American life since the pandemic. This means that my fellow idiots might actually sit the election out or actually go vote for Trump, which would really fuck everything up.

So what's the call to action? I'm here in California and it'll be a cold day in hell if we go for Trump in '24, so I'm pretty content sitting back and watching the shit show unfold (I'll be voting, mind you, it just won't be moving any needles).
I suppose if a million of us marched on Washington and demanded that Joe Biden folds his reelection campaign, we could have an open primary. :p

I am also a CA voter, but I am donating* into swing state elections. This is an important one, and I probably also going to try and phone bank into swing states also. Even if you don't have money you can swing the needle.

The one thing I am not going to do is sit this one out. This is when to win, right now, stop the history of the weimar republic from being repeated. It is all on the line.



*I have already had a meet and greet with one senator, which was pretty sweet.
I've never been politically active but I like these ideas! Feel free to PM me any info on donating my time, such as phone banks. Thanks.
 
Dec 10, 2005
28,625
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I think running as a not Biden would be stupid. I have no idea why you think that has to be the way they have to run.

If you haven't noticed, the success stories are not resonating with voters, and in the Dem party too. Like I said, most people are not political junkies like us. If they were, Biden's polls would be much higher right now.
They would have to make an argument for why the incumbent shouldn't be on the ticket, hence the issue of how and why they are different (ie, "not Biden"). I'm not seeing how they could succeed in that messaging.
 

manly

Lifer
Jan 25, 2000
13,258
4,033
136
They would have to make an argument for why the incumbent shouldn't be on the ticket, hence the issue of how and why they are different (ie, "not Biden"). I'm not seeing how they could succeed in that messaging.
Not necessarily. If voters are resoundingly telling everyone they don't want Joe Biden again, then that's argument enough. Any other nominee besides Bernie instantly resolves the age+Kamala question. I'm not saying that's enough to win, but it's major.

It's unclear what dazed and confused voters actually want, to be honest. Biden is simultaneously too progressive and too moderate!

More germane to this thread, it's like the morons who simultaneously believe Trump's dueling assertions that there is no greater friend to both Israel and Arabs than Donald J. Trump. :tearsofjoy: He's the greatest anti-racist to have ever lived!
 

MrSquished

Lifer
Jan 14, 2013
26,067
24,395
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They would have to make an argument for why the incumbent shouldn't be on the ticket, hence the issue of how and why they are different (ie, "not Biden"). I'm not seeing how they could succeed in that messaging.
Why would they have to do that if Biden resigns from the race? The only way a primary should happen is if Biden and his team decide he shouuldn't run. I'm not asking for a contested primary. Never have.