Discussion 2024 USA Election Thread: Biden and Dems might have problems in 2024 swing states - The Gaza Issue

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Dec 10, 2005
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Not necessarily. If voters are resoundingly telling everyone they don't want Joe Biden again, then that's argument enough. Any other nominee besides Bernie instantly resolves the age+Kamala question. I'm not saying that's enough to win, but it's major.

It's unclear what dazed and confused voters actually want, to be honest. Biden is simultaneously too progressive and too moderate!

More germane to this thread, it's like the morons who simultaneously believe Trump's dueling assertions that there is no greater friend to both Israel and Arabs than Donald J. Trump. :tearsofjoy: He's the greatest anti-racist to have ever lived!
Sorry, but "not X", isn't a strong argument to give up the incumbent advantage. "Not X" allows the people being polled to image whatever dream candidate fits their fancy instead of having to live in a reality of choices.
 
Dec 10, 2005
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Why would they have to do that if Biden resigns from the race? The only way a primary should happen is if Biden and his team decide he shouuldn't run. I'm not asking for a contested primary. Never have.
So you don't want Biden to run and you don't want a contested primary, but a contested primary would certainly happen if Biden wasn't going to run. Unless someone is going to be anointed as a successor (and we know how everyone feels about the DNC and anointment).
 

Jaskalas

Lifer
Jun 23, 2004
35,718
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This isn't just the top 2% investor class, as many American families now have a lot of home equity built up
WTF?
Can people eat home equity, can they put it in their gas tank, or pay bills with it?
That the roof over your head is more expensive, is NOT a benefit.

"Net worth" going up is precisely an investor class BS argument and DOES NOT apply to the vast majority of people, thus the poll results.
Being able to sell your home for more money means nothing. The cost of living increases, that's where it is at. That is what matters to people. Because it affects everything they do.
 

nickqt

Diamond Member
Jan 15, 2015
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Biden is old as shit, but I don't think there are going to be enough votes against him for age or for perceived failures to really matter. If he's alive and still able to string sentences together a year from now, he'll be the candidate, barring some surprise decision not to run and to have Harris run instead.

Any polls you see now are totally useless. A large plurality of voters, unfortunately, don't pay attention to a god damn thing until around September of the Presidential election year. I'm sure if it's Biden vs Trump part II, the polls will tighten up as shitbag fascist losers rally around their proud criminal Strongman candidate, and a bunch of less shitty people rally around Biden because they don't hate America and aren't fascist shitbag losers.

That said, if it's Biden vs Trump, either could win. Looking back at 2016 and 2020, both Electoral College winners won by like 70,000 and 42,000 votes, respectively, spread out across a few swing states. Between COVID, natural deaths, and new shitbag conservatives being brainwashed by the dogshit media they consume, it'll probably be close.

What is more interesting to think about now is what happens if Trump is in a jail or prison cell if he wins. Oh geez will that be "interesting".
 

manly

Lifer
Jan 25, 2000
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Sorry, but "not X", isn't a strong argument to give up the incumbent advantage. "Not X" allows the people being polled to image whatever dream candidate fits their fancy instead of having to live in a reality of choices.
I didn't say it was a strong argument. I'm merely stating that if Joe Biden isn't running for reelection, the open primary would have to work itself out. Whether that theoretical nominee is in a better situation than currently is certainly debatable. You resolve one major question, but perhaps introduce others. Look nobody here is saying that Joe Biden is the best guy we have; all we're saying is that there's no clear alternative even if you happen to like Gov Whitmer or Cory Booker. And you'll still need to figure out how to change a lot of people's minds between now and 11 months from now.
 
Dec 10, 2005
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WTF?
Can people eat home equity, can they put it in their gas tank, or pay bills with it?
That the roof over your head is more expensive, is NOT a benefit.

"Net worth" going up is precisely an investor class BS argument and DOES NOT apply to the vast majority of people, thus the poll results.
Home equity can be tapped by leveraging it for a loan. Or selling the property and moving to a cheaper place and pocketing the gains.

On paper, Americans are doing quite well, and consumer spending supports that conclusion. Really, the largest drag is housing costs, but NIMBYs keep fighting the development of more housing. At the end of the day though, people's perception of the economy is largely based on vibes and political polarization.
 
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Dec 10, 2005
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I didn't say it was a strong argument. I'm merely stating that if Joe Biden isn't running for reelection, the open primary would have to work itself out. Whether that theoretical nominee is in a better situation than currently is certainly debatable. You resolve one major question, but perhaps introduce others. Look nobody here is saying that Joe Biden is the best guy we have; all we're saying is that there's no clear alternative even if you happen to like Gov Whitmer or Cory Booker. And you'll still need to figure out how to change a lot of people's minds between now and 11 months from now.
That's fine. I'm merely stating that an open ended polling question of should someone run or not is kind of useless for this overall analysis.
 

manly

Lifer
Jan 25, 2000
13,258
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WTF?
Can people eat home equity, can they put it in their gas tank, or pay bills with it?
That the roof over your head is more expensive, is NOT a benefit.

"Net worth" going up is precisely an investor class BS argument and DOES NOT apply to the vast majority of people, thus the poll results.
Being able to sell your home for more money means nothing. The cost of living increases, that's where it is at. That is what matters to people. Because it affects everything they do.
You're an idiot. Close to 65% of Americans are homeowners (yes, most have a mortgage and not clear title). So how much equity they have built up certainly affects how they feel about their finances and the national economy. Furthermore when unemployment is 4% and there has been some real wage growth (offset by inflation) over the past 5 years, people aren't exactly thrilled but they are doing okay. Claiming that the sky is falling does NOT align with the "facts on the ground." This doesn't mean that there aren't pockets of society that ARE struggling (as always), but there is no comparison between how people are doing today vs during the Great Recession.

And you totally forget how Americans have used home equity loans as a "spending account" so to speak in recent decades. It totally matters, and yes some people do choose to pay (some of) their bills this way.

There are some real distortions in the housing market that have been exacerbated since the pandemic, but besides folks actively trying to buy a bigger house, most people can't exactly complain.

Like I said if people think the economy is trash now, wait until we have an actual recession.
 
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MrSquished

Lifer
Jan 14, 2013
26,067
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So you don't want Biden to run and you don't want a contested primary, but a contested primary would certainly happen if Biden wasn't going to run. Unless someone is going to be anointed as a successor (and we know how everyone feels about the DNC and anointment).
By Contested Primary I mean a primary contesting Joe Biden's campaign.
 

Jaskalas

Lifer
Jun 23, 2004
35,718
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You're an idiot. Close to 65% of Americans are homeowners (yes, most have a mortgage and not clear title). So how much equity they have built up certainly affects how they feel about their finances and the national economy. Furthermore when unemployment is 4% and there has been some real wage growth (offset by inflation) over the past 5 years, people aren't exactly thrilled but they are doing okay. Claiming that the sky is falling does NOT align with the "facts on the ground." This doesn't mean that there aren't pockets of society that ARE struggling (as always), but there is no comparison between how people are doing today vs during the Great Recession.

And you totally forget how Americans have used home equity loans as a "spending account" so to speak in recent decades. It totally matters, and yes some people do choose to pay (some of) their bills this way.

There are some real distortions in the housing market that have been exacerbated since the pandemic, but besides folks actively trying to buy a bigger house, most people can't exactly complain.

Like I said if people think the economy is trash now, wait until we have an actual recession.
What kind of 1% elitist BS is that.
Many Americans may be homeowners, but home equity is NOT paying their bills.

That is the disconnect between your brain and the poll results. Homes are not investments for people, they are ROOFS over heads. They are required to be kept, not assets to be sold to someone else for a profit. "Net worth" is meaningless to people living paycheck to paycheck. What, so they can take out another loan and go further into debt? Brilliant move, that one.

Going into further debt is not a sign of "everything is great". Neither is housing (and everything else) getting more expensive.
If you cannot see price increase as a BAD thing, then you will never understanding working Americans.
 

APU_Fusion

Golden Member
Dec 16, 2013
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Lord God, let’s wait until YOU KNOW POLLS MAY HAVE ANY RELEVANCE before we scream DOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOMMMMTurtles all the way down to the seventh circle of MAGAT HELL

KHANNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNN
 
Dec 10, 2005
28,625
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What kind of 1% elitist BS is that.
Many Americans may be homeowners, but home equity is NOT paying their bills.

That is the disconnect between your brain and the poll results. Homes are not investments for people, they are ROOFS over heads. They are required to be kept, not assets to be sold to someone else for a profit. "Net worth" is meaningless to people living paycheck to paycheck. What, so they can take out another loan and go further into debt? Brilliant move, that one.

Going into further debt is not a sign of "everything is great". Neither is housing (and everything else) getting more expensive.
If you cannot see price increase as a BAD thing, then you will never understanding working Americans.

Surveys that claim a majority of people are living paycheck to paycheck are deeply flawed. "After I've paid my expenses, purchased leisure items, maxed my 401k, and contributed to my vacation fund, I have nothing left at the end of the month, thus, I live paycheck to paycheck."
 

MrSquished

Lifer
Jan 14, 2013
26,067
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Surveys that claim a majority of people are living paycheck to paycheck are deeply flawed. "After I've paid my expenses, purchased leisure items, maxed my 401k, and contributed to my vacation fund, I have nothing left at the end of the month, thus, I live paycheck to paycheck."

You do realize 50% of people in this country own just 2.6% of the wealth. Most of those people are living paycheck to paycheck and not in the happy way you make it sound.
 

manly

Lifer
Jan 25, 2000
13,258
4,033
136
Surveys that claim a majority of people are living paycheck to paycheck are deeply flawed. "After I've paid my expenses, purchased leisure items, maxed my 401k, and contributed to my vacation fund, I have nothing left at the end of the month, thus, I live paycheck to paycheck."
He's just a moron who doesn't understand people's rising net worth is significant. Neither I nor anyone else said "everything is great" although if you're an economist, you actually might say that based on the numbers. When's the last time the economy was subjectively great, the Clinton boom years?

As for households living paycheck to paycheck, Americans are bad at budgeting and saving. The best part of these surveys are the hordes of GQP homeowners that simultaneously admit they're doing fine/well but the national economy is in the shitter. Tribalism at its finest.
 
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Dec 10, 2005
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You do realize 50% of people in this country own just 2.6% of the wealth. Most of those people are living paycheck to paycheck and not in the happy way you make it sound.
Doesn't matter. The paycheck to paycheck surveys are still very flawed in their methodology, and are just used to create doom and gloom economic news articles.
 

MrSquished

Lifer
Jan 14, 2013
26,067
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Doesn't matter. The paycheck to paycheck surveys are still very flawed in their methodology, and are just used to create doom and gloom economic news articles.
Of course, that type of massive wealth inequality is inconsequential, most people are doing fine. Nothing to see here but fake doom and gloom.

Nice.

This is also very ironic. One of the main reasons myself, and many others, support the Dem Party is because they specifically acknowledge this wealth inequality and how it directly impacts the quality of life for so many Americans, in the same sense that paycheck to paycheck conveys.
 
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Dec 10, 2005
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Of course, that type of massive wealth inequality is inconsequential, most people are doing fine. Nothing to see here but fake doom and gloom.

Nice.
Precisely, most people are doing fine. Wages are up, unemployment is down, and consumer spending hasn't been pulling back. Surveys are showing people believe their personal situations are fine. The only big issue some might be facing is housing costs, and the federal government isn't going to fix that issue.

The doom and gloom is largely vibes.
 
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K1052

Elite Member
Aug 21, 2003
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Precisely, most people are doing fine. Wages are up, unemployment is down, and consumer spending hasn't been pulling back. Surveys are showing people believe their personal situations are fine. The only big issue some might be facing is housing costs, and the federal government isn't going to fix that issue.

The doom and gloom is largely vibes.

I think some of this stems from people believing their positive economic personal situation is something they did and and that higher prices and higher interest rates are something the government has done to them.

The US economic recovery has trounced everybody else's but most people think it just happened naturally somehow instead of being a result of policy.
 
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PumpkinCake

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Nov 2, 2023
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Precisely, most people are doing fine. Wages are up, unemployment is down, and consumer spending hasn't been pulling back. Surveys are showing people believe their personal situations are fine. The only big issue some might be facing is housing costs, and the federal government isn't going to fix that issue.

The doom and gloom is largely vibes.

Idk, small businesses are shuttering right and left. It's very noticeable. Auto repossessions are up 33-45% this year, depending on which source you believe. People are buying homes at inflated values, all it takes is a hiccup and foreclosures start.

I generally agree, that skilled workers are not doing terrible. But everyone sees the writing on the wall for the path we are down. Especially if you lived through 07-08.

Also can you link to where you found this
Surveys are showing people believe their personal situations are fine.
 
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PumpkinCake

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I think some of this stems from people believing their positive economic personal situation is something they did and and that higher prices and higher interest rates are something the government has done to them.

The US economic recovery has trounced everybody else's but most people think it just happened naturally somehow instead of being a result of policy.

I'm still salty about PPP and it will be interesting to see the data on how much that affected inflation.
 

MrSquished

Lifer
Jan 14, 2013
26,067
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I got to say I think you guys are delusional about the state of this country for a huge amount of people. I now know why the term elitist Democrat comes to be.

Wages and wealth inequality have gotten better but so has the cost of living, especially rent. Most of these people have no health care, often little to know paid or sick time off. Many are part-time and getting none of these things or they're working multiple part-time jobs.

It's rather disappointing and a bit disgusting to hear Democrats say now everybody's doing fine and wealth inequality doesn't really matter anymore.

The fact people like that think the Democratic party can do no better than Joe Biden in 2024 makes a lot of sense. It means you don't exist in reality
 
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PumpkinCake

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Nov 2, 2023
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I got to say I think you guys are delusional about the state of this country for a huge amount of people. I now know why the term elitist Democrat comes to be.

Wages and wealth inequality have gotten better but so has the cost of living, especially rent. Most of these people have no health care, often little to know paid or sick time off. Many are part-time and getting none of these things or they're working multiple part-time jobs.

It's rather disappointing and a bit disgusting to hear Democrats say now everybody's doing fine and wealth inequality doesn't really matter anymore.

The fact people like that think the Democratic party can do no better than Joe Biden in 2024 makes a lot of sense. It means you don't exist in reality


As a centrist, nothing is more obnoxious than a wealthy dem standing in front a mirror jerking off explaining how perfect everything is and we have nothing to worry about.

I don't think it's about "Joe is great". Even Joe himself didn't run on a Joe is great platform. He ran and won on "anything but Trump".

Now, shockingly, Trump easily beating Joe in the poll.s
 

manly

Lifer
Jan 25, 2000
13,258
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I'm gonna post the entirety of the LAT article because it includes real information, whereas the naysayers claim we're delusional. For the record, I have a longstanding dislike of trickle-down Reaganomics and if you wanna argue there are plenty of structural issues with income equality, I will support that 100%. People have short memories, but apparently they've completely forgotten how bad things were in 2009. And that was arguably the good scenario; central banks worldwide intervened and a depression was avoided. People became very jaded about the "Wall street bailouts" and rightfully so, but the economy was in shambles after the 2008 crisis.

You can say there still are a lot of Americans struggling today and you wouldn't be wrong. But overall, the situation is stable and people are generally better off than they were 13 years ago. That's a simple, undisputable fact. You literally have an assclown in this thread claiming that rising housing prices is bad for homeowners of their primary residences.

BY DAVID LAUTERSENIOR EDITOR
NOV. 3, 2023 4 AM PT
WASHINGTON —
Voters are mad about the economy. All the polls say so.

The U.S. economy has seldom been stronger. The numbers say so.

Those two statements are hard to square. Common sense says so.

What’s going on, and how might it affect the election, now a year away?

As the campaign heats up, economists, political scientists and all sorts of media types have been arguing over the disconnect between economic data and poll data. Is the economy worse than the numbers show, or is something misleading going on with the polls?

Here’s what you should know.

The economic picture​

The economist Justin Wolfers puts it this way: Suppose you had fallen asleep in August 2019 and didn’t wake up for four years. On awakening, if you were an economist, the first thing you’d want to know is what the latest data show.

You’d be happily surprised: Unemployment, which was at a historic low when you fell asleep, has remained near that point — 3.8% in September. The economy has grown significantly, even adjusting for inflation, meaning the country has gotten richer. And perhaps most surprisingly, for the first time since before the Great Recession, income distribution has become a bit more equal as the biggest gains have gone to low-wage workers.


In all, you would find that the economy was doing better than most of your colleagues in 2019 had predicted.

“You would wonder what really good thing had happened while you were sleeping,” said Wolfers, a professor at the University of Michigan’s Gerald R. Ford School of Public Policy.

In fact, of course, you would have slept through a vast social trauma brought on by a worldwide plague, accompanied by a short, but very steep, recession. That makes the good economic numbers all the more impressive.


That’s not the entire picture, of course: A wave of price increases has washed through the economy since 2021, peaking in the summer of 2022. and leading the Federal Reserve to sharply increase interest rates. At this point, however, inflation has subsided. The rate the Fed watches most closely now sits just slightly above 3% — higher than the central bank’s 2% target, but not alarmingly so.

“The economy is good. Full stop,” says Wolfers. “That’s the story.”

The polling picture​

That’s not the story the polls tell.

Last month, only 16% of U.S. adults said the economy was even “somewhat good,” according to the latest poll for the Associated Press conducted by NORC at the University of Chicago. More than 7 in 10 Americans labeled the economy as some level of poor, with 31% calling it “very poor.”

Over the past year, more than half of registered voters consistently have said the U.S. economy was getting worse, according to weekly surveys by YouGov.


The White House has spent the last year touting economic growth and seeking credit, hoping voters will see Bidenomics as a synonym for success.

So far, that effort has landed with a thud.

A poll released Wednesday by Quinnipiac University found just 40% of voters approved of President Biden‘s handling of the economy, compared with 57% who disapproved. That’s no worse than his overall job approval rating, but it’s certainly not what the Bidenomics campaign was designed to achieve.

What’s going on?​

Several theories try to explain the radical gap between the polls and the economic statistics.

One focuses on time lags. Perhaps in another few months, as Americans adjust to lower inflation and higher wages, polls will start pointing upward, that theory suggests.

A second notes that although inflation has slowed, prices remain higher than people were used to. Perhaps it’s the price level, not the rate of increase, that’s weighting down opinions.

“The price of groceries and gas and other things people see and buy day to day is still a shock, even if inflation has slowed. Obviously it hasn’t reversed the increases or even completely stopped them, just slowed their growth,” noted Lanae Erickson, senior vice president of Third Way, a Washington-based Democratic think tank.

Another line of thinking, heard from many Democrats, is that news organizations have colored public opinion by focusing on bad news.

There’s clearly something to that. Conservative media, in particular, has pounded on signs of inflation. But the media’s bias toward bad news has been around for a long time. The disconnect between the polls and the economic numbers is new.

A fourth possibility, more troubling for public opinion research, is that when people respond to questions about the economy, they’re now more likely to be posturing than saying what they really think about financial conditions.

Do the polls still mean what they used to?​

What’s the evidence? Typically, when people expect hard times, they pull back on their spending. Americans have done the opposite. Not only is spending up, but so is the rate at which people are opening new businesses, which has risen significantly over the past year.

Or consider the rise of labor militancy. Usually, people don’t go on strike if they believe they’d have a lot of trouble finding another job. Nor do employers usually agree to generous new contracts if they expect a severe economic downturn. But in Hollywood, the auto industry, trucking, railroads and more, unions have struck or credibly threatened to, and companies have given workers much more than before.

The polls themselves also provide evidence that people are responding to something other than their own economic experience.

Before the COVID-19 pandemic, more than 6 in 10 Americans said the economy was in good shape, according to the AP-NORC polls. About 6 in 10 Americans also labeled their own financial conditions as good. That makes sense: The economy is simply the aggregate of every household and business, so those two measures should be in sync most of the time.

Beginning in the spring of 2020, as COVID-19 lockdowns led to widespread business closures and layoffs, the share calling the economy good plummeted. The share rating their own household’s finances as good stayed high. That, too, makes sense: The economy was in a deep recession, but households were being buoyed by trillions of dollars in pandemic aid.

As the economy began to recover, the share calling it good began to climb.

It’s what happened next that suggests a change in what polls are reflecting. In 2022, as the worst of the inflation surge hit, the share who rated their own finances as good declined a little. But the share giving a good rating to the overall economy dropped a lot. The share of Americans who call their own finances good is now about twice as big as the share who call the economy good, NORC’s numbers show.

In other words, a growing number of people say their finances are fine, but the economy as a whole is bad.

Who are those people? NORC found that 82% of Republicans who call their personal financial situation good view the economy poorly. Only 38% of Democrats with good personal finances say the same.

Once again, as in so many cases, partisanship is changing how people see the world.

That doesn’t mean Biden’s suddenly in the clear: Whether people are down on the president because they dislike the economy or down on the economy because they dislike the president, it’s potential trouble for the incumbent.

But for everyone else, it requires a shift: If we really want to know what Americans think about the economy, we may need to start asking different questions.
 

MrSquished

Lifer
Jan 14, 2013
26,067
24,395
136
As a centrist, nothing is more obnoxious than a wealthy dem standing in front a mirror jerking off explaining how perfect everything is and we have nothing to worry about.

I don't think it's about "Joe is great". Even Joe himself didn't run on a Joe is great platform. He ran and won on "anything but Trump".

Now, shockingly, Trump easily beating Joe in the poll.s

Actually what's a much bigger problem is the fact you think you're a centrist. You know the right wing let them eat cake kind of centrist. You have no standing on this conversation
 

PumpkinCake

Member
Nov 2, 2023
158
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Actually what's a much bigger problem is the fact you think you're a centrist. You know the right wing let them eat cake kind of centrist. You have no standing on this conversation


I've found that right wingers don't really care if you're not 100% republican. They tend to "support" people who might not believe all of the diehard right wing beliefs and politics. Where are left wingers rage out with personal attacks and claims of MAGA and whatever else if you don't accept all dem political talking points 100%.

Look at the threads I've posted in - if you add up my viewpoints I'm 50/50. Yet I'm met with nothing but personal attacks from the leftists.
 
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