2020 census to include citizenship question

[Jhhnn]

As I said I think ...

Link where Empirical research strongly indicates that illegals participate in the census.

It is your contention that they do not and therefore you bear the burden of proof.

OTOH, if you are correct then the communities where illegals have settled now receive less from the federal kitty than they should & are also under represented in govt.

Do we want to make that better, or worse?

 

[pcgeek11]

It is your contention that they do not and therefore you bear the burden of proof.

OTOH, if you are correct then the communities where illegals have settled now receive less from the federal kitty than they should & are also under represented in govt.

Do we want to make that better, or worse?

No, it isn't my burden to bear. He claimed there was " Empirical research strongly indicates ..."

Illegals should receive nothing from the federal government and should not be represented in the government at all. They are here illegally.

 

[fskimospy]

I never said "none respond". As I said earlier and you did not read was that we do not know the numbers that do and the numbers that don't so it cannot be determined what effect if any this will have on the overall outcome of the census. Any claim that you know is untrue.

Citizenship question is just like the other demographics they ask as I stated above.

We know that illegal immigrants use services that they are entitled to at lower levels because they are afraid of being identified as illegal. It is simple logic that explicitly asking them to identify as illegal would further depress turnout.

I mean even you have to admit this is common sense and the citizenship question is nothing like other demo questions as those do not carry legal repercussions. Absolute nonsense.

 

[Jhhnn]

No, it isn't my burden to bear. He claimed there was " Empirical research strongly indicates ..."

Illegals should receive nothing from the federal government and should not be represented in the government at all. They are here illegally.

Nice dodge. I asked you what it means if you're right, what it means to citizens who live in communities where a sizeable portion of the population is undocumented. You haven't answered that question at all.

Your last paragraph flies in the face of the Constitution which calls for apportionment on the basis of population. Period. It's been that way since the first census of 1790. If conservatives were really conservative at this point they'd defend the Constitution & the institutions of Democracy, not attack them.

 

[pcgeek11]

We know that illegal immigrants use services that they are entitled to at lower levels because they are afraid of being identified as illegal. It is simple logic that explicitly asking them to identify as illegal would further depress turnout.

I mean even you have to admit this is common sense and the citizenship question is nothing like other demo questions as those do not carry legal repercussions. Absolute nonsense.

How about the Origin Question, or Race? There are tons of immigrants living here that are not illegal and are not citizens. The citizenship questions actually doesn't say that they are illegal or not. There are also laws that prevent their status being given to law enforcement. So actually the citizenship question doesn't have any legal repercussions either.

I will agree that chances are the participation of illegal aliens very well could drop if they participate at all. Why aren't you working to educate the illegals on the laws that protect them and that the question doesn't show legal or illegal status. The perceived problem is born from pure ignorance.

 

[pcgeek11]

Nice dodge. I asked you what it means if you're right, what it means to citizens who live in communities where a sizeable portion of the population is undocumented. You haven't answered that question at all.

Your last paragraph flies in the face of the Constitution which calls for apportionment on the basis of population. Period. It's been that way since the first census of 1790. If conservatives were really conservative at this point they'd defend the Constitution & the institutions of Democracy, not attack them.

No you stated that it was my responsibility to provide proof. I stated why it was not.

Then those areas of the the US with a large illegal alien population should get out and beat the streets and educate the ignorant among them that their status cannot be found from a citizenship question as there are many non-citizens living and working here legally. If the participation drops due to the misinformed that is not an issue with the census it is an issue with the illegals.

They will be apportioned with respect to the population as counted. It is impossible to get 100% participation. If they choose to not participate that is their issue. Nobody is attacking anything, the question has no legal repercussions as it doesn't indicate any legal or illegal status and any data obtained cannot be released to or used by law enforcement.

 

[Jhhnn]

How about the Origin Question, or Race? There are tons of immigrants living here that are not illegal and are not citizens. The citizenship questions actually doesn't say that they are illegal or not. There are also laws that prevent their status being given to law enforcement. So actually the citizenship question doesn't have any legal repercussions either.

I will agree that chances are the participation of illegal aliens very well could drop if they participate at all. Why aren't you working to educate the illegals on the laws that protect them and that the question doesn't show legal or illegal status. The perceived problem is born from pure ignorance.

I do love it. You have yet to explain how asking the question creates any benefit. You even concede that it may well encourage non-participation. Explain why you support it, other than tribal loyalty. Give us the up side.

 

[pcgeek11]

I do love it. You have yet to explain how asking the question creates any benefit. You even concede that it may well encourage non-participation. Explain why you support it, other than tribal loyalty. Give us the up side.

Oh for the same reason that we ask about Sex, National Origin, Race... What benefit does that have other than getting an accurate make up of who is living in our country.

I personally think we should know how many living here are citizens or not. We should also know specifically who they are and where they live. This is much more useful data than if they are male for female.

 

[Jhhnn]

Oh for the same reason that we ask about Sex, National Origin, Race... What benefit does that have other than getting an accurate make up of who is living in our country.

I personally think we should know how many living here are citizens or not. We should also know specifically who they are and where they live. This is much more useful data than if they are male for female.

Immigration status is a useful indicator in what way, exactly? Well, it's probably useful in planning for the great purge that will purify White America. It's what you want, isn't it- to deport all the icky brown illegals?

Oh- if you depress participation among illegals you won't know where they are, anyway. C'mon- tell me that's not a no-brainer.

Coy denials aside, the GOP knows what they're doing with this, with gerrymandering & voter suppression as well. If they're not a majority they'll try to make it look that way.

 

[fskimospy]

How about the Origin Question, or Race? There are tons of immigrants living here that are not illegal and are not citizens. The citizenship questions actually doesn't say that they are illegal or not. There are also laws that prevent their status being given to law enforcement. So actually the citizenship question doesn't have any legal repercussions either.

They would have to be pretty stupid to risk their entire lives on the fact that agencies would strictly adhere to that law. I mean would you? Use common sense.

I will agree that chances are the participation of illegal aliens very well could drop if they participate at all. Why aren't you working to educate the illegals on the laws that protect them and that the question doesn't show legal or illegal status. The perceived problem is born from pure ignorance.

This is sheer nonsense. The perceived problem comes from experience. As mentioned earlier in this thread there are plenty of examples of ICE staking out courthouses, for example. Illegal immigrants going to do business there have been arrested despite the court having nothing to do with immigration issues. They would have to be pretty stupid to assume it couldn’t happen otherwise.

 

[OutHouse]

Immigration status is a useful indicator in what way, exactly? Well, it's probably useful in planning for the great purge that will purify White America. It's what you want, isn't it- to deport all the icky brown illegals?

lol typical spewing of bullshit when cornered.

 

[Zaap]

lol typical spewing of bullshit when cornered.

Yeah very typical. I love how the left bayonette themselves on molehills of complete bullshit like this though. All they have left is to yell racist and brown people (never realizing its turds like flush that think that way more than the people he slings his feces at).

Luckily, outside the echo chamber of this sewer I think most rational people realize the left like the ones infesting this forum are a bunch of race baiting assholes on subjects like this. Hell, I'm from an area with plenty of lefties around and its only a percentage as batshit as flush.

 

[ivwshane]

Yeah very typical. I love how the left bayonette themselves on molehills of complete bullshit like this though. All they have left is to yell racist and brown people (never realizing its turds like flush that think that way more than the people he slings his feces at).

Luckily, outside the echo chamber of this sewer I think most rational people realize the left like the ones infesting this forum are a bunch of race baiting assholes on subjects like this. Hell, I'm from an area with plenty of lefties around and its only a percentage as batshit as flush.

The projection is strong in this one.

 

[pcgeek11]

Immigration status is a useful indicator in what way, exactly? Well, it's probably useful in planning for the great purge that will purify White America. It's what you want, isn't it- to deport all the icky brown illegals?

Oh- if you depress participation among illegals you won't know where they are, anyway. C'mon- tell me that's not a no-brainer.

Coy denials aside, the GOP knows what they're doing with this, with gerrymandering & voter suppression as well. If they're not a majority they'll try to make it look that way.

OK then you tell me what good it does to ask if you are:
Male or Female
Date of Birth
National Origin
Race ...

It is data no more no less.

Where did I say anything about white? I don't care what color you are you should comply with the law. The census makes no distinction between legal immigrants and illegal aliens, from the census question you would never know one from the other.

I personally think we should know how many living here are citizens or not. We should also know specifically who they are and where they live. This is much more useful data than if they are male for female.

 

[Jhhnn]

The projection is strong in this one.

With all of them. Why do they insist on having this question in the census knowing it will depress participation by undocumented residents? Because it will depress participation among undocumented residents, redirect funding & representation away from the places where they live. You know, like CA, NY & so forth. The GOP knows exactly what they're doing & their adherents don't mind cheating just so long as it helps them win at the polls & in Congress.

They'll go for the circular argument of "they don't belong here in the first place" every time. They *are* here & the Constitution demands that they be counted just like everybody else.

 

[Jhhnn]

OK then you tell me what good it does to ask if you are:
Male or Female
Date of Birth
National Origin
Race ...

It is data no more no less.

Where did I say anything about white? I don't care what color you are you should comply with the law. The census makes no distinction between legal immigrants and illegal aliens, from the census question you would never know one from the other.

I personally think we should know how many living here are citizens or not. We should also know specifically who they are and where they live. This is much more useful data than if they are male for female.

None of the other questions set people up to be deported or give the impression that they might be should they participate.

What other use do you have for the data you want, anyway?

 

[pcgeek11]

They would have to be pretty stupid to risk their entire lives on the fact that agencies would strictly adhere to that law. I mean would you? Use common sense.

And exactly why most will not participate in a census be begin with. They will stay in shadows where they feel safe. The only real answer is for people that feel strongly about it to educate them that the census cannot tell if they are legal or illegal from that question.
You need to use some common sense.

This is sheer nonsense. The perceived problem comes from experience. As mentioned earlier in this thread there are plenty of examples of ICE staking out courthouses, for example. Illegal immigrants going to do business there have been arrested despite the court having nothing to do with immigration issues. They would have to be pretty stupid to assume it couldn’t happen otherwise.

They have every right to be paranoid as they have broken the law. I would be paranoid also and would not fill out a census form with my data of any kind on it.

I agree that it is common sense to not participate if you are an illegal alien regardless of the questions asked. I wouldn't if I were breaking the law.

 

[Jhhnn]

And exactly why most will not participate in a census be begin with. They will stay in shadows where they feel safe. The only real answer is for people that feel strongly about it to educate them that the census cannot tell if they are legal or illegal from that question.
You need to use some common sense.




They have every right to be paranoid as they have broken the law. I would be paranoid also and would not fill out a census form with my data of any kind on it.

I agree that it is common sense to not participate if you are an illegal alien regardless of the questions asked. I wouldn't if I were breaking the law.

So you admit that the intent is to cheat places like LA out of the representation the Constitution says they deserve?

 

[pcgeek11]

With all of them. Why do they insist on having this question in the census knowing it will depress participation by undocumented residents? Because it will depress participation among undocumented residents, redirect funding & representation away from the places where they live. You know, like CA, NY & so forth. The GOP knows exactly what they're doing & their adherents don't mind cheating just so long as it helps them win at the polls & in Congress.

They'll go for the circular argument of "they don't belong here in the first place" every time. They *are* here & the Constitution demands that they be counted just like everybody else.

Where did it say that they wouldn't be counted? Fill out a census and be counted regardless of citizenship just the same as always. The citizen question does not distinguish between legal or illegal aliens. The law prevents the data from being released to law enforcement.

If you want a true count these areas need to inform the uninformed immigrants of these Facts. Instead the left is just stirring up mistrust and bull shit with will probably inhibit the participation much more than this one question.

 

[pcgeek11]

None of the other questions set people up to be deported or give the impression that they might be should they participate.

What other use do you have for the data you want, anyway?

Neither does asking if you are a citizen. Damn I said it dozen times they cannot tell if you are legal or illegal from the question. The data is not and cannot be released to law enforcement by law.

We should know who is a citizen and not a citizen in our country who they are and where they are.

 

[pcgeek11]

So you admit that the intent is to cheat places like LA out of the representation the Constitution says they deserve?

No, That is not what I said. Not even close. If you have read what I have posted here in this thread is.

1.) The count of illegals is mostly crap anyway as most do not participate out of fear in my opinion.

2.) So asking the citizen status will have a minimal impact on the overall count due to 1 above.

3.) If the "high illegal alien" areas want them counted they should have an education program in place to inform them of the Facts and not the fear induced crap on display here in the forum.

My personal feelings is that If you are here illegally you should not have any government benefits or representation. Regardless of what color you are. But this simple question "Are you a US Citizen? answer Yes or No" is not going to peg anyone for deportation as there are many thousands of Legal Non US Citizens here in the US that will answer that they are not a US Citizen.

 

[Jhhnn]

Neither does asking if you are a citizen. Damn I said it dozen times they cannot tell if you are legal or illegal from the question. The data is not and cannot be released to law enforcement by law.

We should know who is a citizen and not a citizen in our country who they are and where they are.

Oh, please. You still haven't explained how such information is useful, just that you think the gubmint should have it.

The other side of it is that the question def narrows the field should congress change the law to use such info for immigration purposes. There were only ~13.2M LPR's in the country in 2014, considerably narrowing the field from over 315M.

In summary, an estimated 13.2 million LPRs lived in the
United States on January 1, 2014, and 8.9 million of
them were eligible to naturalize. The majority (64 per
-
cent) obtained LPR status in 2000 or later.

https://www.dhs.gov/sites/default/files/publications/LPR Population Estimates January 2014.pdf

I just want the most accurate Constitutionally mandated count we can get. Period. You clearly do not & you can't even tell us why other than you want what you want for undisclosed reasons. The reasons he GOP wants an under count in blue metro areas are obvious, however. They neither need nor want honest Democracy & have demonstrated that time & time again with extreme gerrymandering & various forms of vote suppression.

Hell- you'd think they know that Americans aren't dumb enough to provide them with an honest majority so they'll just create a fictional post-truth majority instead.

 

[pcgeek11]

Oh, please. You still haven't explained how such information is useful, just that you think the gubmint should have it.

The other side of it is that the question def narrows the field should congress change the law to use such info for immigration purposes. There were only ~13.2M LPR's in the country in 2014, considerably narrowing the field from over 315M.



https://www.dhs.gov/sites/default/files/publications/LPR Population Estimates January 2014.pdf

I just want the most accurate Constitutionally mandated count we can get. Period. You clearly do not & you can't even tell us why other than you want what you want for undisclosed reasons. The reasons he GOP wants an under count in blue metro areas are obvious, however. They neither need nor want honest Democracy & have demonstrated that time & time again with extreme gerrymandering & various forms of vote suppression.

Hell- you'd think they know that Americans aren't dumb enough to provide them with an honest majority so they'll just create a fictional post-truth majority instead.

So you are playing the "What If Card".

Go ahead and live in denial, but the liberals stirring the pot of dishonesty about the census and the question of citizenship will reduce the total count due to distrust and misinformation spread by you and yours. The blame will be on the left.

Your time would be better spent and have a more positive impact for you if you educated the illegal aliens about what the actual law says and why they should participate. Stop the fear mongering for no good end.

The question is going on the census as there is no legal reason for it to be removed.

 

[ivwshane]

So you are playing the "What If Card".

Go ahead and live in denial, but the liberals stirring the pot of dishonesty about the census and the question of citizenship will reduce the total count due to distrust and misinformation spread by you and yours. The blame will be on the left.

Your time would be better spent and have a more positive impact for you if you educated the illegal aliens about what the actual law says and why they should participate. Stop the fear mongering for no good end.

The question is going on the census as there is no legal reason for it to be removed.

Actually the reason was already explained to you multiple times by posters here and by experts. We already have states set to sue the trump admin if the question is added.

Once again your dishonesty is put on for all to see.

 

[pcgeek11]

Actually the reason was already explained to you multiple times by posters here and by experts. We already have states set to sue the trump admin if the question is added.

Once again your dishonesty is put on for all to see.

The argument against the citizenship question makes no sense whatsoever. It is only fear mongering by the liberals and will reduce the census count more than the question.

I haven't been dishonest about anything. Keep on Trolling.