2018 mid-term forecast

[fskimospy]

Once again you want things to be binary, and decide that the answer can only be one of the few you select for the multiple choice. But you ignore a lot of reality in doing so.

The left have become the party of racists, today. There is no denying that.

By all means let's hear those other 'multiple choices' that you don't believe are covered by the research. (I will be interested to see how many of them are explicitly covered by the research, lol)

 

[SlowSpyder]

By all means let's hear those other 'multiple choices' that you don't believe are covered by the research. (I will be interested to see how many of them are explicitly covered by the research, lol)

You are making the assertion, tell me why it "must" be racism and no possible other explanation.

 

[fskimospy]

You are making the assertion, tell me why it "must" be racism and no possible other explanation.

The answer is already there if you read the research that you were already provided and then dismissed without even reading. It doesn't HAVE to be anything, racism is just by far the most likely answer.

 

[SlowSpyder]

The answer is already there if you read the research that you were already provided and then dismissed without even reading. It doesn't HAVE to be anything, racism is just by far the most likely answer.

Right, it very well may not be racism. Thank you.

But, we must agree that affirmative action IS racism.

 

[Fenixgoon]

No, it isn't privilege. It is the norm, or should be. People that don't do that are handicapping themselves. The normal expectation is not privilege. If all white people cut off their child's right hand when born, is it privilege of other demographics to have two hands or might we point to the white demographic and say, "stop doing that, you're handicapping yourself"?

should be is the equivalent of "in theory". and we know "in theory" and "in practice" are not necessarily the same. you are assuming that the cultural norm (expectation) is consistent with the actual norm (observation). the ACTUAL NORM - what is most common or observed - is far different

it's NOT ALWAYS the norm - which odds very much are for black children - then everyone else is by definition at an advantage or otherwise has some kind of privilege that they do not.

how to fix that is a whole different thing. you don't just say "stop having kids out of wedlock". you have to ask "why is a large fraction of this demographic group having kids out of wedlock in the first place?" and address the issues that arise from there.

 

[fskimospy]

Right, it very well may not be racism. Thank you.

Are you fucking kidding me. lol.

 

[Amused]

Right, it very well may not be racism. Thank you.

But, we must agree that affirmative action IS racism.

No. Affirmative action corrects racism. Calling anti-racist policies racist doesn't make it so.

Why is this an ongoing thing with the right? It's like some overarching act of orwellian projection.

 

[SlowSpyder]

should be is the equivalent of "in theory". and we know "in theory" and "in practice" are not necessarily the same. you are assuming that the cultural norm (expectation) is consistent with the actual norm (observation). the ACTUAL NORM - what is most common or observed - is far different

it's NOT ALWAYS the norm - which odds very much are for black children - then everyone else is by definition at an advantage or otherwise has some kind of privilege that they do not.

how to fix that is a whole different thing. you don't just say "stop having kids out of wedlock". you have to ask "why is a large fraction of this demographic group having kids out of wedlock in the first place?" and address the issues that arise from there.

My analogy covers this. If a particular demographic is handicapping themselves, it isn't privilege for those demographics that don't shoot themselves in the foot.

I agree whole heartily with your last paragraph.

 

[bshole]

Right, it very well may not be racism. Thank you.

But, we must agree that affirmative action IS racism.

Man that sounds like some kind of beta white male excuse. I am a white male and "affirmative action" never affected any part of my life. Weirdly I hear the same shit from my brothers who are all blue collar workers who did bad in school and all make less than 1/3 of my salary.

PS. Can't rip on my brothers too bad, it looks like both of my children are going to be betas. Reasonably bright but lazy as hell and getting bad grades (one is smoking pot too boot). They are soo fucked. I keep telling them this and it just doesn't sink in.

 

[SlowSpyder]

Man that sounds like some kind of beta white male excuse. I am a white male and "affirmative action" never affected any part of my life. Weirdly I hear the same shit from my brothers who are all blue collar workers who did bad in school and all make less than 1/3 of my salary.

PS. Can't rip on my brothers too bad, it looks like both of my children are going to be betas. Reasonably bright but lazy as hell. They are soo fucked. I keep telling them this and it just doesn't sink in.

Affirmative action has hit me at least once that I know of. I am not trying to be victimy, but that is the reality of it and worth mentioning since we're on the subject. I have been impacted by institutionalized racism, fact. I am in IT, corporate middle management for whatever that's worth to the conversation and I'm far from "well off" but I do alright, my income falls in the top 20% for single filers... far from rich, but well above the median.

 

[Amused]

Affirmative action has hit me at least once that I know of. I am not trying to be victimy, but that is the reality of it and worth mentioning since we're on the subject. I have been impacted by institutionalized racism, fact. I am in IT, corporate middle management for whatever that's worth to the conversation and I'm far from "well off" but I do alright, my income fall in the top 20% for single filers... far from rich, but well above the median.

Anecdotal story is anecdotal... and unsurprisingly fits the desired narrative. Imagine that.

Oh and...

 

[Sheik Yerbouti]

No. Affirmative action corrects racism. Calling anti-racist policies racist doesn't make it so.

Why is this an ongoing thing with the right? It's like some overarching act of orwellian projection.

watch how he repeats the same lie or misinformation over and over and over and over again, right out of drumpfs playbook where you repeat a lie enough it will take root and become the truth.

 

[SlowSpyder]

No. Affirmative action corrects racism. Calling anti-racist policies racist doesn't make it so.

Why is this an ongoing thing with the right? It's like some overarching act of orwellian projection.

Let me ask you this. Say we have a group of 10 minorities and I tell them that there is a job we all want, but I am more likely to get it due to my race and skin color. Would those minorities think that is racism? Because that is 100% exactly what affirmative action is and does. It isn't correcting anything. It is creating even more racial divides and using a wrong to try and correct a perceived wrong (because a study say black people get called back 1/3 less than white people.. what a joke).

 

[Amused]

Let me ask you this. Say we have a group of 10 minorities and I tell them that there is a job we all want, but I am more likely to get it due to my race and skin color. Would those minorities think that is racism? Because that is 100% exactly what affirmative action is and does. It isn't correcting anything. It is creating even more racial divides and using a wrong to try and correct a perceived wrong (because a study say black people get called back 1/3 less than white people.. what a joke).

I'll ask you again. Do you even understand what a meta study is, or what it means?

And no, that's not how affirmative action works. That's a strawman.

Maybe you should read the study I posted. Better yet, maybe you should try to understand the everyday racism blacks go through in America before crying from your position of privilege about being forced to include those nasty black and brown people.

 

[mect]

My analogy covers this. If a particular demographic is handicapping themselves, it isn't privilege for those demographics that don't shoot themselves in the foot.

I agree whole heartily with your last paragraph.

So why do these people disadvantage themselves? Hint: Most often it is because they were disadvantaged as children and never developed important traits for success. So how do you break the cycle? You provide extra resources for these individuals. This is what you don't understand. That black guy/girl that got the job over you due to affirmative action policies most likely had to work much harder than you did because he/she not only had to obtain the same education you did, but also had to do it living in an environment with almost no role models, actual racism, and many other cultural disadvantages. In addition, affirmative action isn't just designed to help that single individual, but the business and society as a whole. Research has clearly demonstrated benefits to increased diversity in the work place. In addition, as we increase the financial attainment of minorities, they are able to work less hours so they can actually be there for their kids and teach them the skills at home that you take for granted. It also increases the visibility of such individuals in society so that minority children start to have better role models to follow. This is part of the reason for the push to increase the diversity in movies and other visible areas of society. It isn't about being politically correct. It is to give children examples of people that look like they do that do great things, even if it is only in fiction.

 

[Puffnstuff]

Just in case anyone is interested here are some interactive maps of whats in play.

https://www.270towin.com/2018-senate-election/
https://ballotpedia.org/United_States_Congress_elections,_2018

 

[mect]

Thay have a clear advantage of being selected for admission to a university...but are at a clear disadvantage when mismatched.

The Painful Truth About Affirmative Action
Why racial preferences in college admissions hurt minority students -- and shroud the education system in dishonesty.
https://www.theatlantic.com/nationa...ainful-truth-about-affirmative-action/263122/

Research on the mismatch problem was almost non-existent until the mid-1990s; it has developed rapidly in the past half-dozen years, especially among labor economists. To cite just a few examples of the findings:

• Black college freshmen are more likely to aspire to science or engineering careers than are white freshmen, but mismatch causes blacks to abandon these fields at twice the rate of whites.
• Blacks who start college interested in pursuing a doctorate and an academic career are twice as likely to be derailed from this path if they attend a school where they are mismatched.
• About half of black college students rank in the bottom 20 percent of their classes (and the bottom 10 percent in law school).
• Black law school graduates are four times as likely to fail bar exams as are whites; mismatch explains half of this gap.
• Interracial friendships are more likely to form among students with relatively similar levels of academic preparation; thus, blacks and Hispanics are more socially integrated on campuses where they are less academically mismatched.

http://public.econ.duke.edu/~psarcidi/grades_4.0.pdf

http://www.seaphe.org/pdf/williamsseptember.pdf

There is no doubt that affirmative action needs review and improvement. For admissions and employment, there is no doubt that at times it isn't employed correctly. In general, the preference for minorities should only be given when they are also qualified in my opinion, otherwise you just set them up for failure. But this also emphasizes where we are still failing. If black freshman were receiving the same level of preparation as whites, we would expect similar rates of success. Clearly blacks are not receiving the same opportunities k-12 as whites. Note that this is not the same as saying that the schools are actively repressing blacks. Rather, a combination of socioeconomics and societal racism put these students at a disadvantage. I would also probably even agree that the socioeconomic elements are the bigger issue. However, I think research also shows that racism itself isn't a sufficiently insignificant problem that we can just ignore it.

 

[SlowSpyder]

I'll ask you again. Do you even understand what a meta study is, or what it means?

And no, that's not how affirmative action works. That's a strawman.

Maybe you should read the study I posted. Better yet, maybe you should try to understand the everyday racism blacks go through in America before crying from your position of privilege about being forced to include those nasty black and brown people.

I understand, yes. I dismiss this as garbage here, it is far too limited in scope to try and explain away racism and all its complexities. You want me to look at what you posted and talk to it but dismiss what I post.

Affirmative action IS racism being used to try and combat racism. Supporters of it (the left, in general) are racist, but like many racists they don't realize they're being racist. You are institutionally handicapping a race for the benefit of other races. Exactly like the example I posted. You act as if I am privileged when I'm the one that has been passed over for at least one job I wanted for absolutely nothing more than being a white male. That isn't privilege, at least not for me. I try to hire people based on their abilities, how well they fit my position's needs. I don't care what color you are, what race, what religion, your sex / gender, LGBT or straight. Absolutely none of that matters to me, what does matter is if the person will be able to do the job and do it well.

 

[SlowSpyder]

So why do these people disadvantage themselves? Hint: Most often it is because they were disadvantaged as children and never developed important traits for success. So how do you break the cycle? You provide extra resources for these individuals. This is what you don't understand. That black guy/girl that got the job over you due to affirmative action policies most likely had to work much harder than you did because he/she not only had to obtain the same education you did, but also had to do it living in an environment with almost no role models, actual racism, and many other cultural disadvantages. In addition, affirmative action isn't just designed to help that single individual, but the business and society as a whole. Research has clearly demonstrated benefits to increased diversity in the work place. In addition, as we increase the financial attainment of minorities, they are able to work less hours so they can actually be there for their kids and teach them the skills at home that you take for granted. It also increases the visibility of such individuals in society so that minority children start to have better role models to follow. This is part of the reason for the push to increase the diversity in movies and other visible areas of society. It isn't about being politically correct. It is to give children examples of people that look like they do that do great things, even if it is only in fiction.

See bolded, I agree 100%! People are born and see a cycle of relying on the government, having kids out of wedlock (marriage not really being the issue, but dads being around and setting good examples really is) and playing the victim. So, to break the cycle, I agree, we throw resources at the problem. But, where you and I differ is that I'm not for harming other people to help prop up another demographic, and that's exactly what affirmative action is.

 

[Amused]

I understand, yes. I dismiss this as garbage here, it is far too limited in scope to try and explain away racism and all its complexities. You want me to look at what you posted and talk to it but dismiss what I post.

If you dismiss a peer reviewed meta study as garbage, you have no idea how science works whatsoever.

Seriously.

Is it that important to you to deny systemic racism exists that you'd refuse to accept what amounts to the strongest scientific evidence that one can provide proving that it does, in fact, exist?

That's the saddest part here. Like any other science denier fro flat earth to anti-vaxx, you deny the painfully obvious incontrovertible proof right in front of your face because, to do so, would require you to actually change your worldview.

 

[Amused]

See bolded, I agree 100%! People are born and see a cycle of relying on the government, having kids out of wedlock (marriage not really being the issue, but dads being around and setting good examples really is) and playing the victim. So, to break the cycle, I agree, we throw resources at the problem. But, where you and I differ is that I'm not for harming other people to help prop up another demographic, and that's exactly what affirmative action is.

No, they are disadvantaged because of systemic racism. Every single one of their problems is rooted in hundreds of years of systemic racism. And your answer to that is to deny systemic racism exists.

 

[zinfamous]

How to lie with statistics. Anyone can dig up some source to back up their view point these days, data is everywhere and and is bought and sold. These are the same people that knew we'd have Madam President by a landslide (and then claimed sexism when American rejected the worse candidate).

this from the guy that brings anecdotes to a data fight.

seriously, fuck off already with your intellectual dishonesty and thorough incompetence.

 

[fskimospy]

If you dismiss a peer reviewed meta study as garbage, you have no idea how science works whatsoever.

Seriously.

Is it that important to you to deny systemic racism exists that you'd refuse to accept what amounts to the strongest scientific evidence that one can provide proving that it does, in fact, exist?

That's the saddest part here. Like any other science denier fro flat earth to anti-vaxx, you deny the painfully obvious incontrovertible proof right in front of your face because, to do so, would require you to actually change your worldview.

I mean he declared the meta-analysis to be garbage without even bothering to read it. Does this sound like someone who is amenable to evidence, logic, and reason?

 

[zinfamous]

Does anyone truly believe that SlowSpyder lost a job because of "institutional anti-white racism," or simply because he just isn't that bright compared to the competition? I mean, he's not making a good case for himself here.

 

[zinfamous]

No, they are disadvantaged because of systemic racism. Every single one of their problems is rooted in hundreds of years of systemic racism. And your answer to that is to deny systemic racism exists.

Oh no, it exists. But it only effects white people disproportionately because, you know, with such a drastic advantage in numbers that white people have, the one guy not being hired for being white is disproportionate to the decades of black dudes not being hired for being black.

That's how numbers work, to SlowSpyder