19 Year Old Girl Shot Looking for Help

[SheHateMe]

Oh man, wish I had an admin to help me deflect things.

 

[Londo_Jowo]

We don't. I like many others get roped in race on here and have for your years because I refuse to be quiet when it is clear your response is motivated by race.

Okay the girl was drunk, maybe even high, and a terrible driver by some accounts. And so many of you are literally cheering some man who shot her in the face because she was banging on his door at 3 am in the morning.

I think you need to go read my other posts in the thread, I'm not cheering for anyone in this case.

 

[SpatiallyAware]

First, use some logical, critical thinking skills and you might find more people 'on your side'.

Second, mod callouts are strongly frowned upon. I'd hate for you to be unable to participate in this debate. :-/

 

[HumblePie]

A co-worker described to me a similar event that happened to him after I told him about this story last week. Meant to post it here, but got too busy at work. Got some time for a moment so I'll put it out here.

So my co-worker/friend lives a bit out in the country. Had an incident last year where he was woken up at 3am ish to some loud banging on his front door along with some screaming and shouting. He has a wife and two kids living with him. He grabs his shotgun and goes to the front door and looks out the peephole. He sees some strange young guy standing there. The guy stopped screaming and banging as he saw lights in the house turn on as my friend approached the front door.

My friend opened the door to determine who the guy was. The guy was drunk and stoned out of his mind. Had no idea where he was and was just looking to get into the nearest house. My friend could have shot him but didn't. He asked the guy where he lives, grabbed his keys, and drove him there. He didn't want the guy even remembering where he lived nor any additional trouble. He knew he was taking a risk, but did it anyhow. But to be blunt he could have shot the guy right then and there on his door step without ever getting into trouble. Since he lives on land that is fenced in, the guy had to either jump the fence, or break the lock on the gate to even get to his doorstep. He also uses part of his land to agriculture and pretty much if anyone is caught trespassing on agriculture land out here, they can be shot first with no questions asked about it.

Lucky for this guy, my co-worker was a generous guy that didn't automatically assume the worst of some strange guy breaking onto his property at 3am. But I ill say, too many people have been killed by someone breaking into their property just like that. Enough so that many a homeowner out here will shoot first and let the cops deal with the questions later (if they ever even bother to ask questions).

On a side note, he did say the dude was really stoned. As he was driving the guy home, the guy opened his glove box and started to fish around. He found a pen in the box, put one end in his mouth, and tried to light the other end with his lighter he pulled out of his pocket at the same time. Then looked at it stupidly wondering why the pen wasn't doing what he expected it to be doing while he was trying to light it.

 

[Londo_Jowo]

Now we've heard many times this woman was shot through a locked screen door. If this is the case, what was she banging on? In order to strike the storm door she would have to deflect the screen several inches.

 

[SheHateMe]

I'd hate for you to be unable to participate in this debate. :-/

I'm not really allowed to participate anyway. Which is why I haven't bothered with this thread much since it broke 30 something pages.


If I get timed out for calling out EagleKeeper, that's fine. I just find it a bit disturbing that he would vehemently defend people who would make statements without being able to back them up....

Yes, he's a mod...but he's still someone posting in this thread, therefore, he should be fair game for criticism.

Moderator call outs are not allowed. When any member of the moderating staff is posting as a member on their regular account, you may not make reference to their other, mod status. That is considered a mod call out, rule #13. In many ways, P&N is a free-for-all because that's what its members seem to be prefer. Hence, the Discussion Club with its higher standards.

Perknose
Forum Director

 

[SpatiallyAware]

That was very stupid of your friend. Great way to risk leaving a widowed wife and fatherless kids.

 

[HumblePie]

That was very stupid of your friend. Great way to risk leaving a widowed wife and fatherless kids.

Told him that. Oh well. Different people with different views. I would have just called the cops and stat behind my door with a shotgun.

This is why having a speak easy with bars on a door is handy.

 

[SpatiallyAware]

SHM: Then debate without the mod whining BS. Fwiw I think you're holding your own, and certainly presenting stronger arguments than the rest of the crew.

 

[nehalem256]

So my co-worker/friend lives a bit out in the country. Had an incident last year where he was woken up at 3am ish to some loud banging on his front door along with some screaming and shouting. He has a wife and two kids living with him. He grabs his shotgun and goes to the front door and looks out the peephole. He sees some strange young guy standing there. The guy stopped screaming and banging as he saw lights in the house turn on as my friend approached the front door.

My friend opened the door to determine who the guy was. The guy was drunk and stoned out of his mind. Had no idea where he was and was just looking to get into the nearest house. My friend could have shot him but didn't. He asked the guy where he lives, grabbed his keys, and drove him there. He didn't want the guy even remembering where he lived nor any additional trouble. He knew he was taking a risk, but did it anyhow. But to be blunt he could have shot the guy right then and there on his door step without ever getting into trouble. Since he lives on land that is fenced in, the guy had to either jump the fence, or break the lock on the gate to even get to his doorstep. He also uses part of his land to agriculture and pretty much if anyone is caught trespassing on agriculture land out here, they can be shot first with no questions asked about it.

Now imagine that as your co-worker open the door the young man outside had made a sudden movement that freaked your friend out causing him to accidentally discharge his shotgun in the man's face.

How long would you say your co-worker should be going to jail for?

 

[SpatiallyAware]

Now imagine that as your co-worker open the door the young man outside had made a sudden movement that freaked your friend out causing him to accidentally discharge his shotgun in the man's face.

How long would you say your co-worker should be going to jail for?

We don't know the most important detail... In the name of 'equality', what are the skin colors of everyone involved?

 

[Tweak155]

I'm not really allowed to participate anyway. Which is why I haven't bothered with this thread much since it broke 30 something pages.


If I get timed out for calling out EagleKeeper, that's fine. I just find it a bit disturbing that he would vehemently defend people who would make statements without being able to back them up....

Yes, he's a mod...but he's still someone posting in this thread, therefore, he should be fair game for criticism.

What does it even matter that he is a mod? IMO you're whining just to whine. The fact that he is a mod is irrelevant. It is still just an opinion.

 

[Tweak155]

We don't know the most important detail... In the name of 'equality', what are the skin colors of everyone involved?

Is that sarcasm?

 

[classy]

Now we've heard many times this woman was shot through a locked screen door. If this is the case, what was she banging on? In order to strike the storm door she would have to deflect the screen several inches.

I would assume she was banging on the screen door

 

[HumblePie]

Here's the thing, we have to get into the mind of the homeowner at the time of the incident. He has someone at 3-4am making noises loud enough to wake him in the middle of the night. He takes his gun with him to the door to see what the ruckus is about. Obviously, this is not usually a short period of time if he just woke up. He has to put on clothes, grab his gun, and make his way to the front door. This will take the average person a minute or two. It is reasonable to assume the woman was making loud noises at his front door for longer than that to even wake him. Based upon logical conclusion of the known facts, it is reasonable to assume the young lady was making loud noises for several minutes before the man got to the front door. We also know she had not moved from that spot at the front porch when the homeowner arrived.

Now everyone responds differently to these situations. What most people don't understand is that homeowners at night on their property have a LOT of discretionary rights when it comes to lethal force in the protection of their property. I REALLY wish people would have some sort of mandatory training during their lifetime of knowing that if they trespass on someone's private property at night they are taking a grave risk of their very life in doing so.

While I sympathize in the fact that the girl was probably not there in a capacity to harm the homeowner, the homeowner has no way of knowing that at the time. My personal response would be to keep the gun trained on the door and call the cops. I would yell at the person outside that the cops are coming and they need to be on their way off my property.

Do I think the guy committed manslaughter in this case. I don't know and it's hard to say. I think the fact that the guy said the wrong things to the cops at the time will make it point to that though even if it isn't true. This is why you don't talk to police without an attorney present.

 

[HumblePie]

Now imagine that as your co-worker open the door the young man outside had made a sudden movement that freaked your friend out causing him to accidentally discharge his shotgun in the man's face.

How long would you say your co-worker should be going to jail for?

I wouldn't say at all. Nor would he go to jail over it. Not where we live. And not by the fact the person had already illegally trespassed on to farmland. Accidental or intentional shooting of the person wouldn't have mattered to the eyes of the law around here. Cops would have noted the guy was not where he was suppose to be at a time he was not suppose to be there. His death would have been justified solely based upon those factors around here.

As for reference, the guy and my friend were both white.

 

[SheHateMe]

What does it even matter that he is a mod? IMO you're whining just to whine. The fact that he is a mod is irrelevant. It is still just an opinion.

Because he has the power to clean up some of the nonsense in the thread and instead seems to be endorsing it.

Everyone wants people to debate with facts, yet a certain group of people get to make statements about that night that cannot be verified as if they are fact.

IE, people saying she was trying to tear through the screen when his screen door wasn't even mesh, it's clearly glass or plexi glass.

people saying she was screaming obscenities

people stating definitively that she was trying to break in. Evidence shows Wafer's door was locked. He was safe in his house. So safe, that he could stand in his main doorway and shoot someone in the face behind a locked screen door.

one idiot claiming that she probably left to porch to try and break into another part of the house before she came back.

etc.



Oh, I forgot....this isn't Discussion Club. My bad. Everything is held up to a different standard. People can just say stuff like this in P&N.

 

[SpatiallyAware]

Censorship of reasonable opinions which you happen to disagree with is not the way to handle this.

 

[SheHateMe]

Censorship of reasonable opinions which you happen to disagree with is not the way to handle this.

I don't care what you guys' opinions are. I have a problem with the lying and pretending like you are stating facts.

If you cannot verify the information it is NOT a fact. PERIOD.

 

[Geosurface]

I'm not really allowed to participate anyway.

What in the world do you mean, seriously?

"Allowed to participate" ???

Are you implying that because a sizable portion of the people posting in this thread view this case differently from you, and that because one of them is a mod (something you mentioned over and over again within your last few posts until someone finally reacted to it) that this is somehow equivalent to you "not being allowed to participate" ???

Or am I missing something here?

If your ability to express an opinion and feel confident in it is contingent upon having numerical superiority or a "welcoming atmosphere" (or any other such wussy considerations) you need to grow a pair, stat.

And wtf is with this badgering of EagleKeeper? Are you trying to imply that a mod shouldn't be allowed to express view points unless they line up with your own? I know you won't acknowledge it, but I REALLY think that is what you're implying.

Because he has the power to clean up some of the nonsense in the thread and instead seems to be endorsing it.

Everyone wants people to debate with facts, yet a certain group of people get to make statements about that night that cannot be verified as if they are fact.

Dude... in the Trayvon thread there were massive numbers of people who refused to update their understanding of the case, even a year later and more... and clung to disproved myths or misunderstandings from early on.. The other people in the thread should be fine on their own correcting them, and appealing to a higher authority to "clean up" posts you disagree with is pathetic censorious crap.

 

[Tweak155]

Because he has the power to clean up some of the nonsense in the thread and instead seems to be endorsing it.

<snip>

Oh, I forgot....this isn't Discussion Club. My bad. Everything is held up to a different standard. People can just say stuff like this in P&N.

As a mod he should tolerate anyone's opinion and has the right to present his own. He's doing fine, you just don't agree with it. Like I said, you're whining just to whine.

If a mod modified posts to suit only what he / she thought should be said / stated, then that person has no place being a mod. EagleKeeper is doing fine, if you don't like the way the thread is going then I suggest not entering it.

 

[SpatiallyAware]

I don't care what you guys' opinions are. I have a problem with the lying and pretending like you are stating facts.

If you cannot verify the information it is NOT a fact. PERIOD.

In a social discussion it is perfectly accept to say "I think xyz happened based on abc".

This is not some research paper. Every post you happen to disagree with is not required to be followed up with a works cited.

Instead, quote the person and present a logical rebuttal.

 

[SheHateMe]

What in the world do you mean, seriously?

You and your friends like to play this game where people aren't allowed to be on the other team without being scrutinized over everything they say.....meanwhile, your team gets to make statements that cannot be verified and nobody is allowed to question them. Ironically, you accuse people who disagree with you of the same thing....

Basically, every conversation becomes deadlocked because you folks are so set in your ways. You want to call out others, but then get all defensive when people call you out. Again, you accuse others of this but you guys cannot be accused.


For example, I've been posting reasonably in this thread since the begging and for some reason your crew shows up accusing me of stating that this shooting was racially charged. Again, NO PROOF TO VERIFY SUCH CLAIMS. I call you out on it and the response is a backtrack, "its your MO".

I guess you guys' MO is lie first....deflect later.

And wtf is with this badgering of EagleKeeper? Are you trying to imply that a mod shouldn't be allowed to express view points unless they line up with your own? I know you won't acknowledge it, but I REALLY think that is what you're implying.

No, I'll acknowledge it. I don't have a problem with EagleKeeper as a mod, but I have a problem when people can derail a thread with lies and its not addressed. Opinions are one thing...but when people are purposefully trying to act like what they're saying is the truth (with no source), I have a problem with that.

This type of behavior is not allowed in Discussion Club. Not at all....but for some reason P&N is allowed to be a wasteland. Why?

Why is the Discussion Club the only place where people are accountable for what they say?

 

[spidey07]

Never mind the posters who still insist she was shot just looking for help and knocking on the door, she obviously wasn't doing nary a thing wrong. That is just not possible.

They know this how? That's right, the family's lies who weren't there and insisted she was shot in the back of the head as she was leaving the porch.

 

[Geosurface]

This type of behavior is not allowed in Discussion Club. Not at all....but for some reason P&N is allowed to be a wasteland. Why?

I guess that's why they made Discussion Club? I know a lot of people enjoy unfettered debate, a "free for all" if you will. This certainly isn't quite that, but it's closer than Discussion Club and to a lot of people, that's a feature, not a bug.

I'm sorry you feel overly scrutinized or whatever, I hadn't perceived this phenomenon you reference where everyone on "your side" is being put under a microscope... I sort of thought both "sides" were doing the usual; picking apart the other "side's" posts.

I agree that some people should be more clear about making their speculation known as being such.

I also think there is more overlap between the two "sides" than you may be implying. A lot of people are just doing devil's advocate. I don't think the thread would be particularly interesting if we all just came in to make one post "this is unacceptable and he should be prosecuted."

The guy has made some sort of claim of having acted in self-defense and it's a natural part of discussion to speculate as to how that might possibly be the case under the known facts, and under possible facts which could be consistent with them. Some people are better at speculation while staying grounded in the known facts than others are. Some people get a little carried away. I don't see that as anything that needs correction by anyone other than the other posters, though.

To my point about overlap between the sides: As I said in a recent post, I have very little sympathy for Renisha given her illegal behaviors that night, but it is simply not acceptable to blast someone with a shotgun for ANY version of banging on your door at any hour. I think he should do some time.