Discussion Zen 5 Speculation (EPYC Turin and Strix Point/Granite Ridge - Ryzen 9000)

[DisEnchantment]

Speculate at will

 

[adroc_thurston]

Still down from Intel Broadwell's 128 MB of last level cache

those are very different things

The selling point of X3D cpus is specifically video game performance.

they're good webservers too

 

[StefanR5R]

those are very different things

Yep, Crystalwell, as an eDRAM on-package implementation (attached via an extra eDRAM controller accessible by both CPU and iGPU) featured latency and bandwidth between L3$'s and main memory's, not L3$-level latency and bandwidth.

 

[MS_AT]

One of the theories as to why Zen5 struggles to outpace Zen4 is that there isn't enough memory bandwidth for it to stretch its legs. Maybe the 3d cache will let zen5 stretch its legs a bit and maybe the clock regression for the X3D chips won't be there. If they just fixed the clock regression it could come in at 15-20% faster than zen4X3d, if the x3d cache mitigates some of the memory bandwidth problems it could go even higher.
Who knows? I do think Zen5 is a good chip, it's just not worth upgrading if you have a zen4.

Games are latency not bandwidth bound. The 3d cache is helping with latency too.

 

[yottabit]

Uhm, system performance, including for a range of game titles, did indeed improve (at least measurably) when Ryzen 5000 increased last-level cache per CCX from 16 to 32 MB, and Ryzen 5000X3D increased it once more to 96 MB. (Still down from Intel Broadwell's 128 MB of last level cache.) Ryzen 7000 and 9000 as well as 7000X3D and 9000X3D merely replicate this. Furthermore, Ryzen 7000(X3D) introduced DDR5 support, and Ryzen 9000(X3D) merely replicates this.

So did you expect some other drastic system level changes from Zen 5/ Zen 5X3D, and feel let down because there are none?
Or did you expect generational increases of CPU core computing speed to bring relevant improvements to games, and feel let down because that's not the case?

He’s upset that the 9800X3D is underperforming in games

Even though we have no idea how fast it is yet

 

[branch_suggestion]

Forcing bundles into the channel is no bueno.

Which is why you do with with a specific vendor, small scale but outsized messaging.

 

[itsmydamnation]

So i see two things to ponder,

1. clocks , can they get x3d clocks closer to base models relative to zen4?
2. can vcache allow Zen5 to stretch its legs further relative to zen4?

AMD’s Ryzen 9950X: Zen 5 on Desktop

AMD’s desktop Zen 5 products, codenamed Granite Ridge, are the latest in the company’s line of high performance consumer offerings.

chipsandcheese.com

you can see Zen5 is both more data memory bound and front end latency bound then zen4 . Also zen5 is less retirement bound then then Zen4 and Zen4x3d puts noticeably more pressure on retirement.

So zen5x3d could be a banger if both the above occur.

 

[adroc_thurston]

small scale but outsized messaging.

Other vendors will riot and you know it.

 

[branch_suggestion]

Other vendors will riot and you know it.

Fine, spread little kickbacks across every major retailer.
Anything to make an impact when the product is a winner, because the comp is willing to play unfair.

 

[jdubs03]

X3D news for you all to feast on:

AMD Ryzen 9 9950X3D and 9900X3D to Feature 3D V-cache on Both CCD Chiplets

Earlier this week, we got rumors that AMD is rushing in the Ryzen 7 9800X3D 8-core/16-thread "Zen 5" processor with 3D V-cache for a late-October debut. The 9800X3D succeeds the popular 7800X3D, and AMD probably hopes it will have a competitive gaming processor in time for Intel's Core Ultra...

www.techpowerup.com

The gaming performance differential compared to the 9800X3D will be interesting. Though I’m not sure how much of an uplift there will be considering most games don’t use more than eight cores.

 

[Hail The Brain Slug]

X3D news for you all to feast on:

AMD Ryzen 9 9950X3D and 9900X3D to Feature 3D V-cache on Both CCD Chiplets

Earlier this week, we got rumors that AMD is rushing in the Ryzen 7 9800X3D 8-core/16-thread "Zen 5" processor with 3D V-cache for a late-October debut. The 9800X3D succeeds the popular 7800X3D, and AMD probably hopes it will have a competitive gaming processor in time for Intel's Core Ultra...

www.techpowerup.com

The gaming performance differential compared to the 9800X3D will be interesting. Though I’m not sure how much of an uplift there will be considering most games don’t use more than eight cores.

That source is so questionable I would not believe this for 1 second.

It says "64MB + 128MB Vcache" for the 9950X + 9900X
then it says "32MB + 96MB VCache" for the 9800X

They can't even get the fine details correct.

 

[9949asd]

77x to 58x up 19%
78x3 to 58x3 up 13%
97x to 77x up 2%
98x3 to 78x3 up ? If 20%, I guess amd had some alien tech.

 

[branch_suggestion]

Strix really needed that SLC, where are the memepilot slushfunds M$?

 

[LightningZ71]

The ONLY real hope that the 9xxx series has from the X3d parts is that their performance is being held back a lot by the bandwidth limits between the CCD and the IOD. If that's the case, then the X3d parts could see notably better uplifts in SOME games. Unless AMD has some real potent "secret sauce " brewed up for the x3d parts, I don't see it.

 

[gdansk]

The ONLY real hope that the 9xxx series has from the X3d parts is that their performance is being held back a lot by the bandwidth limits between the CCD and the IOD. If that's the case, then the X3d parts could see notably better uplifts in SOME games. Unless AMD has some real potent "secret sauce " brewed up for the x3d parts, I don't see it.

There's actually at least 3 hopes people have mentioned:
1. Bandwidth/lower effective latency helps Z5 more. Maybe, but I doubt it.
2. Clock rate is higher. Maybe 100MHz, but not significantly.
3. Cache chip is different. Slightly lower latency? I doubt it but it's possible.

 

[RnR_au]

Shame there are no lows...

DDR5 Memory Performance Scaling with AMD Zen 5

Our AMD Zen 5 Memory Scaling Review examines six different DDR5 memory speeds, including DDR5-8000, DDR5-6400 1:1, DDR5-6400 CL28 and others. We looked into how these speeds impact performance in gaming at four resolutions and a wide range of application workloads.

www.techpowerup.com

 

[KompuKare]

Shame there are no lows...

View attachment 108368

DDR5 Memory Performance Scaling with AMD Zen 5

Our AMD Zen 5 Memory Scaling Review examines six different DDR5 memory speeds, including DDR5-8000, DDR5-6400 1:1, DDR5-6400 CL28 and others. We looked into how these speeds impact performance in gaming at four resolutions and a wide range of application workloads.

www.techpowerup.com

There are at least for 1080P upwards, W1zzard just prefers to put them on a separate page:

DDR5 Memory Performance Scaling with AMD Zen 5

Our AMD Zen 5 Memory Scaling Review examines six different DDR5 memory speeds, including DDR5-8000, DDR5-6400 1:1, DDR5-6400 CL28 and others. We looked into how these speeds impact performance in gaming at four resolutions and a wide range of application workloads.

www.techpowerup.com

 

[fastandfurious6]

X3D news for you all to feast on:

AMD Ryzen 9 9950X3D and 9900X3D to Feature 3D V-cache on Both CCD Chiplets

Earlier this week, we got rumors that AMD is rushing in the Ryzen 7 9800X3D 8-core/16-thread "Zen 5" processor with 3D V-cache for a late-October debut. The 9800X3D succeeds the popular 7800X3D, and AMD probably hopes it will have a competitive gaming processor in time for Intel's Core Ultra...

www.techpowerup.com

The gaming performance differential compared to the 9800X3D will be interesting. Though I’m not sure how much of an uplift there will be considering most games don’t use more than eight cores.

called it!

 

[fastandfurious6]

That source is so questionable I would not believe this for 1 second.

It says "64MB + 128MB Vcache" for the 9950X + 9900X
then it says "32MB + 96MB VCache" for the 9800X

They can't even get the fine details correct.

no

what if it's true? bet

 

[jdubs03]

no

what if it's true? bet

There is this though:

Referenced by HXL.

 

[RTX2080]

X3D news for you all to feast on:

AMD Ryzen 9 9950X3D and 9900X3D to Feature 3D V-cache on Both CCD Chiplets

Earlier this week, we got rumors that AMD is rushing in the Ryzen 7 9800X3D 8-core/16-thread "Zen 5" processor with 3D V-cache for a late-October debut. The 9800X3D succeeds the popular 7800X3D, and AMD probably hopes it will have a competitive gaming processor in time for Intel's Core Ultra...

www.techpowerup.com

The gaming performance differential compared to the 9800X3D will be interesting. Though I’m not sure how much of an uplift there will be considering most games don’t use more than eight cores.

That source is so questionable I would not believe this for 1 second.

It says "64MB + 128MB Vcache" for the 9950X + 9900X
then it says "32MB + 96MB VCache" for the 9800X

They can't even get the fine details correct.

There is this though:

Referenced by HXL.

Even AMD hasn't decided it yet. They had tested various option in lab and successful, like dual layer Vcache and dual CCD Vcache, but nonetheless would increase the cost.

 

[fastandfurious6]

is 96mb per CCD really a hard limit? why would it be?

what is the limiter and why couldn't they change it for a new SKU?

 

[jdubs03]

is 96mb per CCD really a hard limit? why would it be?

what is the limiter and why couldn't they change it for a new SKU?

You got me there. Maybe they indeed will for a halo product.

 

[StefanR5R]

is 96mb per CCD really a hard limit? why would it be?

what is the limiter and why couldn't they change it for a new SKU?

There are certainly several limits which each are more or less costly to bump up (but which may or may not have been reached by the 96 MB 16-way associative config yet). For example, my understanding is that L3$ tags need to be tracked in the IOD, which imposes whatever limit of cache line count they thought of back in the day when they designed this IOD. (Somebody correct me if I got this wrong.)

Edit, or on the hardware side, a 32 + 64 + 64 stack might have worse timings and/or thermals than the 32 + 64 stack, possibly negating whatever diminishing returns would come from 160 MB L3$ compared to 96 MB.

 

[TESKATLIPOKA]

Strix Point is a flop only worth upgrade from 4800/5800h, not from phoenix

It's better in everything than Phoenix(1T,nT,iGPU, battery life), yet It's a flop? Ridiculous.
Just because you believed the unreasonable IPC gain rumors doesn't mean It's a Flop.

 

[fastandfurious6]

It's better in everything than Phoenix(1T,nT,iGPU, battery life), yet It's a flop? Ridiculous.
Just because you believed the unreasonable IPC gain rumors doesn't mean It's a Flop.

phoenix -> stx is really not worth the upgrade

I also did 5800H -> phoenix and it also wasn't really worth it tbh, main benefit is lower thermals

phoenix -> halo/firerange will be worth it