Discussion Zen 5 Speculation (EPYC Turin and Strix Point/Granite Ridge - Ryzen 9000)

[DisEnchantment]

Speculate at will

 

[Hans Gruber]

And also why they use it for zen5c.

But if they can't get high enough clock speeds compared to the mediocre IPC gains or it will be too costly using 3nm, then it is probably why they stick with 4nm.

According to Apple, N3 sucks. Great for efficiency, but no uplift in performance. Apple would know, they bought the entire run of N3. They had to use the efficiency gains to offset the lack of uplift to increase power to gain more clocks. They should have made M3 more efficient in their design and increased their IPC.

For servers, Turin which is based on N3. It will be just fine because servers run low clocks and are designed for super loads and efficiency.

The clock regression that Zen 5 was supposed to have was due to N3. The clock regression went away because Zen 5 is still based on the 5nm silicon. Albeit a much more advanced process for power and efficiency. Whether the next 3nm TSMC process will be N3P or an N3X that will bring even better efficiency and an uplift in performance. TSMC 3nm is way overpriced currently if you base it on return on investment based on price/efficiency/performance.

Meanwhile the Intel haters are either in denial or ignoring that 20A is right around the corner. 20A will put pressure on TSMC to execute better with their 3nm process. From what I see in the TSMC 3nm pipeline. A Zen 5+ next year on standard N3 looks like the only option. Consider that Intel said they would regain market leadership with 18A. By this I think they are saying they would put AMD and TSMC in their rear view mirror. I am not saying they are right. Intel was comparing 20A to Zen 5 being on N3 3nm TSMC which it will not be.

Let's just say the Arrow Lake CPU should be compared to the Alder Lake release. All new cores and design with a silicon node shrink for both architectures. Intel has never struggled with IPC gains when introducing a new core. We have not seen many Node shrinks from Intel over the years. I totally agree with people when you compared TSMC 7nm and 5nm to the Alder Lake 10nm which is terribly inefficient by comparison.

If any forum members can give us evidence or release notes for Zen 5 silicon, that would be great. It's either on N4, N4P or N4X. It matters what silicon AMD uses for the sake of performance and efficiency. Every since Zen 2, AMD has had an impressive silicon advantage. 7nm TSMC was great for the time. 5nm was very good but not as good considering how great 7nm was. I am not giving all your hope and dreams, gone. Never to be seen again for TSMC or AMD. I think maybe AMD and Nvidia should be asking for discounts from TSMC. Meanwhile, Intel is offering to sell silicon to AMD and others in the future.

 

[adroc_thurston]

Great for efficiency, but no uplift in performance

It's just expensive.

For servers, Turin which is based on N3.

Classic is N4 something.

 

[Hans Gruber]

It's just expensive.

Classic is N4 something.

From my research. N4P is good for efficiency gains over N4 and not much performance uplift. N4X is good for significant performance gains over N4 with minimal efficiency gains. AMD has yet to say what silicon they will use for Zen 5 other than it's a 4nm variant. I know TSMC wanted to move their customers who wanted 3nm to N4P.

 

[adroc_thurston]

N4P is good for efficiency gains over N4 and not much performance uplift. N4X is good for significant performance gains over N4 with minimal efficiency gains

They've both increments over each other.
Nodelet stuff. boring.

 

[StefanR5R]

The really weird and concerning part is the benchmark selection they presented us with, especially considering they will be launching these CPUs relatively soon and before the competition (so there's no point in hiding things from them at this stage). Even now, we have no way of evaluating 1T performance of Zen 5. It makes no sense, the opsec part is over.

Is the opsec part truly over though? The keynote had (for all practical purposes) no new info on Turin.

 

[adroc_thurston]

Is the opsec part truly over though?

oh no.

 

[fastandfurious6]

AMD is absolute king

they're just shoved to shortest end of stick as big bad bullies apple and intel book all TSMC with big dirty money and laptop deals etc

everyones on a huge rush and deadlines are so tight

strix halo will be the ultimate gaming apu for a very long time

turin will smash everything

strix point and fire range idk yet

lunar/arrow lakes will be nothingwaffles again

 

[StinkyPinky]

AMD is absolute king

they're just shoved to shortest end of stick as big bad bullies apple and intel book all TSMC with big dirty money and laptop deals etc

everyones on a huge rush and deadlines are so tight

strix halo will be the ultimate gaming apu for a very long time

turin will smash everything

strix point and fire range idk yet

lunar/arrow lakes will be nothingwaffles again

Calm down, Lisa.

 

[poke01]

AMD is absolute king

they're just shoved to shortest end of stick as big bad bullies apple and intel book all TSMC with big dirty money and laptop deals etc

everyones on a huge rush and deadlines are so tight

strix halo will be the ultimate gaming apu for a very long time

turin will smash everything

strix point and fire range idk yet

lunar/arrow lakes will be nothingwaffles again

Here we see an average r/ayymd user comments.

 

[HurleyBird]

AMD is absolute king

AMD should be worried about Skymont and what happens if e-core development continues at even half the current rate. They should be developing their own e-cores, not because the c variant cores are unfit, but to not have all their eggs in the Zen basket.

 

[adroc_thurston]

AMD should be worried about Skymont

They already sell Z4c.

 

[H433x0n]

They already sell Z4c.

Which has worse PPA than Skymont.

 

[adroc_thurston]

Which has worse PPA than Skymont.

Show me iso node comp.
oh wait no, SKT still has castrated SIMD. too bad!

 

[Markfw]

Which has worse PPA than Skymont.

Show me a benchmark

 

[Hans Gruber]

AMD is absolute king

they're just shoved to shortest end of stick as big bad bullies apple and intel book all TSMC with big dirty money and laptop deals etc

everyones on a huge rush and deadlines are so tight

strix halo will be the ultimate gaming apu for a very long time

turin will smash everything

strix point and fire range idk yet

lunar/arrow lakes will be nothingwaffles again

I agree with Turin. Strix Halo on paper should be great. I think Intel will surprise a lot of people because of their node performance with Arrow Lake. RDNA4 is going to be a bust and Battlemage will eat AMD market share. It shouldn't be that way but AMD is focused on margins rather than revenue.

 

[H433x0n]

Show me a benchmark

Well, we’ve seen the SRF v Bergamo benchmarks. If you were to compare it against a Xeon powered by Darkmont I doubt it’d even be close.

 

[H433x0n]

Show me iso node comp.
oh wait no, SKT still has castrated SIMD. too bad!

Since when are we concerned with iso node?

 

[adroc_thurston]

Since when are we concerned with iso node?

?
Z4c isn't getting ported to N3 derivatives so apples to apples is impossible.
too bad!

 

[HurleyBird]

They already sell Z4c.

No, not literally worried about Skymont in and of itself, depending a bit on the release window for Clearwater Forest, but the achievement. At some point, IPC yield on e-core development will taper off, but when? Presently, it looks entirely possible that the -monts lap the -coves and Zens at some point over the next four years.

 

[adroc_thurston]

No, not literally worried about Skymont in and of itself,

The only thing they should be worried about is not delivering >=25% 1t bump in client.

At some point, IPC yield on e-core development will taper off

Whenever piling up on bloat becomes uneconomical. It's been going since Tremont and so far hasn't stopped.
Atom stopped being an actual LITTLE circa TNT but SKT in itself looks closer to something like Neoverse V3 than actual LITTLEs (or even mids) from Apple/ARM/etc.

 

[H433x0n]

?
Z4c isn't getting ported to N3 derivatives so apples to apples is impossible.
too bad!

Apples to apples have never been possible. It wasn’t used as a caveat to cheapen the wins by Epyc over the years when they were a full node ahead over Xeon.

 

[gdansk]

Zen 5C will be on N3E so you can compare with that.
Plus it's on topic too.

 

[adroc_thurston]

Apples to apples have never been possible

There are very much comparable in density node families. Come on.

It wasn’t used as a caveat to cheapen the wins by Epyc over the years when they were a full node ahead over Xeon.

Yeah it was?
Shills were going overdrive 2019-now, telling everyone to wait™ until the Next Big Xeon on a Real™ node.
steak and his SPR fetish was, like, extra funny.

Zen 5C will be on N3E so you can compare with that.

That one has like 4 times the SIMD of SKT.
Even less comparable.

 

[H433x0n]

There are very much comparable in density node families. Come on.

Well, Bergamo and SRF are comparable nodes (kind of) and the result look solid. There’s Turin Z5C coming up against SRF-AP.. care to make a prediction?

Yeah it was?
Shills were going overdrive 2019-now, telling everyone to wait™ until the Next Big Xeon on a Real™ node.
steak and his SPR fetish was, like, extra funny.

That was then.

 

[adroc_thurston]

Well, Bergamo and SRF are comparable nodes (kind of) and the result look solid.

Na?

There’s Turin Z5C coming up against SRF-AP.. care to make a prediction?

Yea, anotha roadkill.

That was then.

Still is.