Discussion Zen 5 Speculation (EPYC Turin and Strix Point/Granite Ridge - Ryzen 9000)

[DisEnchantment]

Speculate at will

 

[igor_kavinski]

Now also AMD cannot match Apple because reasons.

That comparison doesn't make sense. Apple's is a phone SoC that they scaled up and it doesn't run x86 software. AMD doesn't see Apple as a threat and hence that's not their competition. Intel is.

I think if Apple's current performance stagnation continues, they might introduce Macbook Pros with Zen 5.

 

[randomhero]

That comparison doesn't make sense. Apple's is a phone SoC that they scaled up and it doesn't run x86 software. AMD doesn't see Apple as a threat and hence that's not their competition. Intel is.

I think if Apple's current performance stagnation continues, they might introduce Macbook Pros with Zen 5.

Context is PPC or IPC, whatever you want to call it and AMD's ability (disability) to match those of apple cores, even if Zen5 is high clocking core.

 

[Thibsie]

That comparison doesn't make sense. Apple's is a phone SoC that they scaled up and it doesn't run x86 software. AMD doesn't see Apple as a threat and hence that's not their competition. Intel is.

I think if Apple's current performance stagnation continues, they might introduce Macbook Pros with Zen 5.

Apple had a lot of opportunities to use AMD. They never did. Even less now that they have their own CPUs. It wouldn't make any sense.

 

[igor_kavinski]

It wouldn't make any sense.

It could if Strix Halo offered 20% higher GB6 ST than Zen 4. Apple ain't getting there anytime soon.

 

[Glo.]

That comparison doesn't make sense. Apple's is a phone SoC that they scaled up and it doesn't run x86 software. AMD doesn't see Apple as a threat and hence that's not their competition. Intel is.

I think if Apple's current performance stagnation continues, they might introduce Macbook Pros with Zen 5.

They won't.

Expect that more and more companies will go Apple route, if there will be larger demand for Android Apps, in more stationary form factor.

I expect that majority of companies will demand from Intel and AMD more capable mainstream APUs/SOCs. But don't exclude possibility that convenience of development of platform will force OEMs to turn to ARM solutions, because it can scale to different use cases, that are not only limited to PCs with their thermal envelopes.

Using ARM SOCs can scale from smartphones, through TVs, Wearables, laptops, desktop PCs, even game consoles. Power efficiency trumps all things if you focus on platforms, not individual devices.

 

[JoeRambo]

Some posts remind me of Zen1 prelaunch discussions, when AMD could not match broadwell/skylake because reasons.

There were the hype train people back then as well, blabbering about stale Intel and AMD leapfrogging them with release of original Zen. Did not really happen and it took AMD till Zen2 to finally match Skylake's IPC. So 2019 vs 2015 releases and this topic has been beaten to death already over the years. All of it, the more cores, process woes and so on. Let's not go there.

What really applies to Zen5, is that it is supposedly going to be no longer derivative of Zen, but rather new effort, that will take experience and iteration to extract full potential, just like Zen2 did. Also the TSMC process problems with N3 are reminiscent of GF 14nm that was not really that great for AMD.
What that might mean in practice is that Zen6 could have unexpectedly more IPC gains packed, due to AMD having more and better transistors to play with on top of the usual iterations on "new design".

 

[linkgoron]

That comparison doesn't make sense. Apple's is a phone SoC that they scaled up and it doesn't run x86 software. AMD doesn't see Apple as a threat and hence that's not their competition. Intel is.

I think if Apple's current performance stagnation continues, they might introduce Macbook Pros with Zen 5.

How would that work? Apple is all-in on their own ARM implementation, and they're using in all of their products. Going back to x86 doesn't make sense.

 

[adroc_thurston]

What really applies to Zen5, is that it is supposedly going to be no longer derivative of Zen

Every odd number core is shiny new.
1/3/5/7 whatever.

that are not only limited to PCs with their thermal envelopes.

oh man LNL-M will shatter your dreams and ruin your nightmares

 

[Glo.]

oh man LNL-M will shatter your dreams and ruin your nightmares

Great, cannot wait.

 

[JoeRambo]

Every odd number core is shiny new.

That's true, but if we focus on just Core + L2, Zen3 no longer looks that different from Zen2. Even Anandtech commented back during the day, that AMD"s "complete redesign" looks like more tearing down and rebuilding LEGO set.
The "width" of the core was the same, but it was augmented and made more flexible everywhere, making more fundamental changes to Load/Store and frontend. Zen4 threw a lot of transistors on making Zen3 "larger" everywhere, but kept same widths.

Zen5 seems to give Zen lineage "Golden Cove" and somewhat beyond treatment, while Zen2->Zen3 was Skylake->Icelake level of advancement, helped big time by uncore changes that happened at same time.

 

[igor_kavinski]

Going back to x86 doesn't make sense.

Their software side is architecture agnostic. If there's a compelling reason to switch, I don't see why they would hesitate.

 

[TESKATLIPOKA]

oh man LNL-M will shatter your dreams and ruin your nightmares

It's <10W TDP, so performance will be pretty limited, but for office laptops It should be enough.

I personally would choose something more performant with 35-65W.

 

[Tigerick]

Man, when I thought of maintaining one Excel file with multiple tabs of database is hardcore....

 

[Tigerick]

It's <10W TDP, so performance will be pretty limited, but for office laptops It should be enough.

I personally would choose something more performant with 35-65W.

You are forgetting 443 config, that's mean LNL-M most likely has the most powerful graphics under 17W

 

[TESKATLIPOKA]

You are forgetting 443 config, that's mean LNL-M most likely has the most powerful graphics under 17W

And that is 128EU or 192EU? With that power limit you should expect low clocks and performance will be very limited.
For handhelds It could be an option.

 

[Tigerick]

And that is 128EU or 192EU?

Most likely GT3 with 192EU, not sure how difference compared to ARL

 

[adroc_thurston]

It's <10W TDP

17W pkg actually.

 

[Tigerick]

And that is 128EU or 192EU? With that power limit you should expect low clocks and performance will be very limited.
For handhelds It could be an option.

Yeah, clock speed would be low just like Snapdragon, that's why LNL is rumored to be made by N3B process with 192EU, that would be 1536 ALU

 

[TESKATLIPOKA]

17W pkg actually.

And max CPU config is 4+4?
Doesn't look very impressive to me.

Wouldn't Strix Point or Its successor provide better performance limited to same package power thanks to having more cores? I think It would.

 

[linkgoron]

Their software side is architecture agnostic. If there's a compelling reason to switch, I don't see why they would hesitate.

Yes, except that it's not really true:

5 Exclusive macOS Sonoma Features Only Apple Silicon Users Can Enjoy - BGR

With Apple no longer selling Intel Macs, the company continues to offer exclusive features to Apple Silicon machines, now with macOS Sonoma.

bgr.com

macOS Ventura features exclusive to Apple Silicon - 9to5Mac

As Apple continues the transition to Apple Silicon, it is also still supporting Intel-powered Macs with its latest macOS releases....

9to5mac.com

 

[trexfromouterspace]

There is exactly a 0% chance of Apple switching from their own silicon to AMD, and anyone who thinks it'll happen should sit in the corner and reevaluate themselves

 

[igor_kavinski]

There is exactly a 0% chance of Apple switching from their own silicon to AMD, and anyone who thinks it'll happen should sit in the corner and reevaluate themselves

I'm not saying switch completely. AMD for their Pro line of laptops and desktops (where their users expect for their hard earned cash the latest, greatest and best IPC as well as absolute performance regardless of TDP) and everything else their own silicon. They would be offering their customers choice and they would more than make up for the cost of the external silicon with their price tag.

 

[Tigerick]

I'm not saying switch completely. AMD for their Pro line of laptops and desktops (where their users expect for their hard earned cash the latest, greatest and best IPC as well as absolute performance regardless of TDP) and everything else their own silicon. They would be offering their customers choice and they would more than make up for the cost of the external silicon with their price tag.

No, man. What you are asking actually will appear on upcoming MBP, ie. M3 Pro which most likely having 2560ALU which is similar to the Strix Halo. Sure AMD has the CPU core counts advantage (16xZen5 vs 8P+6E), but we are comparing 3 chiplets with one big monolithic die. Apple still has power efficiency SoC which Apple cares the most about.

 

[Glo.]

Most likely GT3 with 192EU, not sure how difference compared to ARL

Incorrect.

 

[trexfromouterspace]

I'm not saying switch completely. AMD for their Pro line of laptops and desktops (where their users expect for their hard earned cash the latest, greatest and best IPC as well as absolute performance regardless of TDP) and everything else their own silicon. They would be offering their customers choice and they would more than make up for the cost of the external silicon with their price tag.

If they wanted to do that they'd just make their own bigger chip or shove an M3 Ultra in there. Apple wants to control their ecosystem as tightly as possible and not need to rely on external vendors whenever possible.

You are absolutely delusional if you think Apple's going to ruin both of those in the name of "customer choice".