Zen 2 APUs/"Renoir" discussion thread

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NostaSeronx

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Sep 18, 2011
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coercitiv

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I'm getting tired of this: there is no source. In the years I've been around on the forums not one of the many wild speculations Nosta posted has ever been true.

Whoever you are, do yourself and others a favor and stop responding to his posts. All you accomplish is enabling this endless cycle of barely readable and apparently mysterious specs & roadmaps that only look enticing because they're a product of misguided imagination.
 

amd6502

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Apr 21, 2017
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Basically nearly 3200g candates that did not meet the specs for 8CU @ 1250MHz or did not quite cut the 4ghz cpu frequency, and also failed the specs for 3300u (6CU).

Anyway, yes that athlon 3150g isn't Zen2 related; just Picasso. But i do think a 7nm quadcore Zen2 or 3 APU is only a matter of time.

with the idea that the Athlon 3150G will have a Zen2 successor with the same exact spec on a new die.
That's not how it works.
 
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Thunder 57

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Aug 19, 2007
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The 4300g is a new product. It has an all around better CPU section than the 3400g. It'sVEGA6 iGPU lags the VEGA 11 iGPU in most GPU limited games, especially when both are kept at STOCK clocks and in games that are compute heavy, but not in all games. That's called a wash.
You should be comparing Vega 6 with Vega 8. That is what the lowest end parts ship with.

He may have but not spamming and repeating the mantra every second post.
There are words for such behaviours IMO.
And what the hell is that supposed to mean? You think I am "spamming" and because I disagree with you I have a "mantra"? Well then I guess you are spamming this thread every other post when you say that what AMD is doing is "unacceptable".

Sorry. For some reason I thought it was Shivansps.

just asking nosta... what's your source for that 6nm small die zen2 APU?
Ha! Good luck with that.
 
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NostaSeronx

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what's your source for that 6nm small die zen2 APU?
It is from an unpublished leak. The reason it wasn't published is because Warhol was used for a desktop CPU in another leak. Potential of being wrong in the article it was deleted.
 

AtenRa

Lifer
Feb 2, 2009
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Im with Shivansps on this one, there is no upgrade path for 3200G and 3400G users yet.
Those Renoir APUs are a direct copy of Intel policy, you pay more for the CPU rather than the iGPU.

The problem is that the majority of users that are buying the AMD APUs are doing so because of the fast iGPU and not for the CPU. There are way faster AMD CPUs than those APUs at the same price points or lower.

Also, if you want to make a new system today with a B550 motherboard, you can only use the new Renoir APUs and not the old cheaper and faster Picasso APUs (3200G/3400G).
That means that if you want to get the 3200G now and upgrade to 4650G next year you cannot on a B550 motherboard.

So for DIY users,

If you want cheap and fast iGPU performance you go with 3200G
If you want the best CPU performance with a iGPU at lower price you go with Intel 10 Gen
If you want the best CPU performance at low price without a iGPU you go with 3100/3300X

So personally I dont even see a reason why a DIY user to even consider the new Renoir APUs at those prices and motherboard restrictions.
It will be better for AMD not to even release those APUs in retail.
 

mohit9206

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Jul 2, 2013
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Will there be non APU variant of Ryzen 4000 also released this year for desktops? I mean replacement for Ryzen 3100 or will sub $150 only be APUs?
 

DrMrLordX

Lifer
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The problem is that the majority of users that are buying the AMD APUs are doing so because of the fast iGPU and not for the CPU.
I think you may have been right in 2015. After that it becomes murky, depending on the market.

Kaveri, Godavati was not AMD's flagship chip Vishera was
Yes and no. Yes, it was the fastest thing they had, which should remind us of how bad things were for AMD back in those days. Kaveri and Godavari were the most-sophisticated products they had in 2015 in terms of process and design. That they only featured two modules was strictly a business decision. Okay wait, it was also a decision based on the node, but the "we can't have 3M or 4M Steamroller" discussion was done to death, and probably drove The_Stilt crazy, back in the day.

and top Vishera chip FX-9590 costed 1000$(later resuced to $230)
The 9590 was a complete failure at its launch price, forcing AMD to retreat. After that point it was . . . well it was the 9590. Prices were all over the place, volumes were low, and it's hard to compare it to anything AMD sells today since AMD hasn't sold anything that bad since 2015/2016. No, not even the Threadripper 1900x falls into that category.

If you want the real "flagship" Vishera that made any sense, it was the 8370, which launched at $199.

Don't you know ARM is the future!!
oh no, not this thread too . . . shudders

I am not accusing you, but reading comment on every AMD's product review gives me that vibe.
Fair enough.

Maybe he should start to offer Intel/Nvidia combination. Also why he is selling AMD system the first place as AMD system don't sell like Intel/Nvidia system.
I get the impression that dGPUs have a ridiculous markup in his market. It's hard for me to know for sure since I am not in his shoes.
 
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AtenRa

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I think you may have been right in 2015. After that it becomes murky, depending on the market.
There was not a single reason to choose an AMD APU for anything else except its iGPU. Intel even today has higher CPU performance and lower price than Renoir

Example,

AMD 4350G @ $149 vs Intel Core i3 10100 @ 122

The only reason to get the AMD 4350G is the iGPU performance, otherwise the Intel Core i3 10100 CPU performance is at least equal or better at lower price.
 

juergbi

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Apr 27, 2019
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There was not a single reason to choose an AMD APU for anything else except its iGPU. Intel even today has higher CPU performance and lower price than Renoir

Example,

AMD 4350G @ $149 vs Intel Core i3 10100 @ 122

The only reason to get the AMD 4350G is the iGPU performance, otherwise the Intel Core i3 10100 CPU performance is at least equal or better at lower price.
The Pro 4350G is more efficient, which may be important for SFF builds. It also presumably supports ECC RAM, which is important at least for some servers. And a non-gamer might still benefit from having more GPU power than Intel UHD Graphics even if they don't care about Vega 6 vs. Vega 8.
 

AtenRa

Lifer
Feb 2, 2009
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The Pro 4350G is more efficient, which may be important for SFF builds. It also presumably supports ECC RAM, which is important at least for some servers. And a non-gamer might still benefit from having more GPU power than Intel UHD Graphics even if they don't care about Vega 6 vs. Vega 8.
What you describing is a niche of a niche of a niche. The vast majority of users goes for best iGPU graphics or best CPU with adequate iGPU just to give signal to a Monitor and be able to watch videos.

Just tell me whos going to spend 300 USD for the 4750G to play games with iGPU ?? :p
 

DrMrLordX

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There was not a single reason to choose an AMD APU for anything else except its iGPU.
That's a half-truth. You get that product for the combination of the CPU and iGPU. And each generation features more CPU performance with . . . not so much more iGPU performance (if any). Buying desktop Renoir today is like saying, "I'm okay with the iGPU performance of two years ago, but I want more CPU horsepower to go with it". There really isn't any option in the Intel lineup to get that product.
 
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Asterox

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There was not a single reason to choose an AMD APU for anything else except its iGPU. Intel even today has higher CPU performance and lower price than Renoir

Example,

AMD 4350G @ $149 vs Intel Core i3 10100 @ 122

The only reason to get the AMD 4350G is the iGPU performance, otherwise the Intel Core i3 10100 CPU performance is at least equal or better at lower price.
As a reminder, AMD 4350G has suport(B550 motherboard with HDMI 2.1 suport) for 8K( 7680 × 4320 )60hz monitor or TV.Same goes for 4350GE 35W version, or any Renoir APU model.

On Intel side, i3 iGPU cant handle or suport 8K 60hz.i3 has suport for up to 4096x2304@60Hz


As i said before, when will be available at retailers i will buy 35W 4350GE model.For my HTPC needs, it is more the enough CPU and GPU performance.3200G is old CPU and only 4/4, or night and day comparison vs Zen 2 based 4/8 Renoir APU.
 
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Shivansps

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Sep 11, 2013
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So let me see if i got this right... Im crazy because:

1) Im asking more perf at the same price point on a new generation, like it has been done since the start of time.

2) I dont like the idea of a $150 sku replacing a $140 one having lower iGPU performance

3) I dont like the idea of the $100 3200G having not replacement or even worse, using the 3150G for that.

4) I dont belive AMD will keep producing Picassos for long after they did cut the compatibility on new motherboards.

5) Why we even need to keep using Picassos when Renoir could replace them no problem if the price is right? The only issue here is that AMD is being too greedy. What is the problem with 110/160 price points for the 4300G and 4600G when the CPU perf is way below Matisse and they can barely keep up with Picasso iGPU perf?


Saying that AMD is doing right here is like saying that Intel did nothing wrong pre-Ryzen. In fact Intel never released a product that performed slower than the older one in any way at the same price back in those days. Anyone thats not biased should agree with me here.
 
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AtenRa

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As a reminder, AMD 4350G has suport(B550 motherboard with HDMI 2.1 suport) for 8K( 7680 × 4320 )60hz monitor or TV.Same goes for 4350GE 35W version, or any Renoir APU model.
It doesnt get more niche than that
 

Thunder 57

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So let me see if i got this right... Im crazy because:

1) Im asking more perf at the same price point on a new generation, like it has been done since the start of time.

2) I dont like the idea of a $150 sku replacing a $140 one having lower iGPU performance

3) I dont like the idea of the $100 3200G having not replacement or even worse, using the 3150G for that.

4) I dont belive AMD will keep producing Picassos for long after they did cut the compatibility on new motherboards.

5) Why we even need to keep using Picassos when Renoir could replace them no problem if the price is right? The only issue here is that AMD is being too greedy. What is the problem with 110/160 price points for the 4300G and 4600G when the CPU perf is way below Matisse and they can barely keep up with Picasso iGPU perf?


Saying that AMD is doing right here is like saying that Intel did nothing wrong pre-Ryzen. In fact Intel never released a product that performed slower than the older one in any way at the same price back in those days. Anyone thats not biased should agree with me here.
As expected, the Ryzen 5 Pro 4650G performed closely to the Ryzen 5 3600X. The difference in performance is negligible, depending on the type of workload. Thanks to the SMT, even the entry-level Ryzen 3 Pro 4350G blows the previous Ryzen 5 3400G flagship out of the water.
(emphasis mine)


Way below Matisse? More like basically the same. It does lose in 3DMark, which is a bit disappointing. However, it should not be surprising since that is comparing the worst iGPU in Renoir to the best in Picasso (6 vs 11 CU's).

The problem with those price points is they are unrealistic. You are suggesting $160 for what is basically a $210 3600X but also comes with an IGPU. That doesn't in any way work. AMD should just undercut itself by $50 and throw in a free iGPU?? Hard to compare against the 3100/3300X since they are almost nowhere to be found but I imagine it would be similar. AMD has stated that they do not wish to be the value brand anymore. I'm sure everybody would love lower prices, but this is where we are.
 

Shivansps

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Sep 11, 2013
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(emphasis mine)


Way below Matisse? More like basically the same. It does lose in 3DMark, which is a bit disappointing. However, it should not be surprising since that is comparing the worst iGPU in Renoir to the best in Picasso (6 vs 11 CU's).

The problem with those price points is they are unrealistic. You are suggesting $160 for what is basically a $210 3600X but also comes with an IGPU. That doesn't in any way work. AMD should just undercut itself by $50 and throw in a free iGPU?? Hard to compare against the 3100/3300X since they are almost nowhere to be found but I imagine it would be similar. AMD has stated that they do not wish to be the value brand anymore. I'm sure everybody would love lower prices, but this is where we are.
The problem with those tests is that they are syntetic and in the games they """forgot""" to compare them to Picasso.

These are the results of the other leak:

CPU test in games with a 2080TI, 4750G vs 3700X:




IGP Tests:





If AMD tries to place the 4350G at $150 and the 4650G at $190 these are awful results.
 

cortexa99

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Jul 2, 2018
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I couldn't find any other tests that using dedicated graphic with Renoir in gaming. But if this korean site's test is true it surprise me that L3 size's importance to Zen is much more than I expected. Are there any tests with Zen arch that show the various L3 size's difference?
 

amd6502

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If AMD tries to place the 4350G at $150 and the 4650G at $190 these are awful results.
Looks fine to me.

Again if people are somehow very particular and have special needs for more PCIe lanes or L3 then simply get the desktop oriented models (eg 3600, 3700x) and pair it up with a cheap card like a 570 RX.

For those that are in the "niche" camp, like "oh, I can't put dGPU build in my SFF case", well, that's as good as it's going to get until there's a something like a new 12nm IO die that with a hefty ~14 CU Vega or so (or an iGPU chiplet compatible with the existing IO die).

If the desktop APU market is large enough this could happen.

The best low end value for iGPU gaming is still Picasso. And they are able to bring those prices down for 3400g (even more so for a hypothetical Renoir 3300g) while not being limited to supply problems like we see with salvage based sku's like 3300x. You are printing half the transitors at an economy node (210mm2 @12nm versus 156mm2 @7nm).

As far as newer B550 boards not being compatible with Picasso that is disappointing to hear. However, I wonder if with time the BIOS might be updated to include support for at least a limited number of popular Picasso APUs. I remember the forums here when people were whining that A320 did not support Matisse 3000 gen, and here we are and most/all these boards do support 3600 3700x etc just fine.
 
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lightmanek

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I couldn't find any other tests that using dedicated graphic with Renoir in gaming. But if this korean site's test is true it surprise me that L3 size's importance to Zen is much more than I expected. Are there any tests with Zen arch that show the various L3 size's difference?
There was a good reason as to why AMD called 32MB L3 cache as GameCache ;)
Game engines are very often super sensitive to memory latency and large L3 helps hide that very well.
Probably best example I can think of is CS:GO where Zen 1 was not competitive with Intel, but Zen 2 and it's much improved cache system made this game fly on it.
 

Shivansps

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Looks fine to me.
How thats fine to you if the SKU thats replacing the 3400G at the same price performs slower in most iGPU tests, and the CPU results are way below Matisse? Remember that whats important here is the strong IGP perf, otherwise the 10100 is far better value, Intel better value.... facepalm.jpg

Again if people are somehow very particular and have special needs for more PCIe lanes or L3 then simply get the desktop oriented models (eg 3600, 3700x) and pair it up with a cheap card like a 570 RX.

For those that are in the "niche" camp, like "oh, I can't put dGPU build in my SFF case", well, that's as good as it's going to get until there's a something like a new 12nm IO die that with a hefty ~14 CU Vega or so (or an iGPU chiplet compatible with the existing IO die).

If the desktop APU market is large enough this could happen.
I would not call "particular need" buying an APU to use its IGP, thats the whole point of an APU, having a good CPU with a good IGP.

The best low end value for iGPU gaming is still Picasso. And they are able to bring those prices down for 3400g (even more so for a hypothetical Renoir 3300g) while not being limited to supply problems like we see with salvage based sku's like 3300x. You are printing half the transitors at an economy node (210mm2 @12nm versus 156mm2 @7nm).
Look, the only reason Picasso will be still better for IGP gaming is because AMD has gotten greedy and these R3/R5 Renoirs are overpriced at 150/190. At 110/160 (thats already includes a price increase btw) there is no more need for Picasso.

As far as newer B550 boards not being compatible with Picasso that is disappointing to hear. However, I wonder if with time the BIOS might be updated to include support for at least a limited number of popular Picasso APUs. I remember the forums here when people were whining that A320 did not support Matisse 3000 gen, and here we are and most/all these boards do support 3600 3700x etc just fine.
While this may happen, it is up to the OEMs(if AMD is not AGESA blocking, thats a big IF), so far it did not happen. The A320 thing happened from day 1.

There was a good reason as to why AMD called 32MB L3 cache as GameCache ;)
Game engines are very often super sensitive to memory latency and large L3 helps hide that very well.
Probably best example I can think of is CS:GO where Zen 1 was not competitive with Intel, but Zen 2 and it's much improved cache system made this game fly on it.
If thats true Renoir CPU perf for gaming will be below Zen+ CPUs and probably not that much faster than Picasso.
 

amd6502

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How thats fine to you if the SKU thats replacing the 3400G at the same price...
Again for the n-th time, it is not replacing but complementing the 3200g & 3400g

It ends up offering more diverse options to enthusiasts and allows the old flagship to be significantly discounted. (That is a complete win-win for consumers.) So either can get a much better deal on top of the line igpu gaming with a 3400g or you can at the same price get stronger CPU cores with an iGPU exceeding that of a 3200g but with almost twice the CPU capability as the 3200g.

The fact that 7nm Vega 7 outperformed the old 11 Vega flagship in the Rainbow6 iGPU-test (and probably traded blows in other iGPU tests) is impressive to me.

If you are so much stressing the (pretty insignificant) ~15% GPU disadvantage of 7nm Vega 6 over the flagship Picasso iGPU and talking about the great importance of the iGPU then also kindly point out that the i3-10100 that you are promoting is an absolute joke that shouldn't even be an option in your context.

I would not call "particular need" buying an APU to use its IGP, thats the whole point of an APU, having a good CPU with a good IGP.
You must misunderstand my point, which is that any smart enthusiast knows that he can (usually) also go the dGPU route. Hence, that person might get himself a 3600 + RX 570 at a not dramatically higher % build cost while getting well over 2x any top end iGPU performance, or a 2600+570 for a good bit below the cost of a 4750g.

What you describing is a niche of a niche of a niche. The vast majority of users goes for best iGPU graphics or best CPU with adequate iGPU just to give signal to a Monitor and be able to watch videos. \ Just tell me whos going to spend 300 USD for the 4750G to play games with iGPU ?? :p
It's really not that rare. Eg., any software dev who wants to casually or occasionally game. Any mid to high range home family PC not targeted at enthusiast gaming but fine for the kids. Any computer in a small form factor case, or any computer needing higher energy efficiency with higher performance and capabilities (eg. workstations and mid to high range office machines).


AMD has gotten greedy and these R3/R5 Renoirs are overpriced at 150/190
Those prices are are very close to the price of a 3600, which uses a 7nm sub 75mm2 chiplet + hub on MCM, while the 4300g/4600g's use a 156mm2 7nm monolithic die with 10B transistors. If you go by rate charge per transistors it's anything but greedy. A ~$25 price premium for having a Vega 7 or even Vega 6 iGPU seems about fair to me.

Now if there were a Matisse (or Zen3 equiv) based desktop focused MCM aiming at pushing the iGPU performance higher 30% while not affecting things like L3 that would be awesome. But how much DIY market would there be, and what premium over a non-APU would the market think is fair, for 14 CU Vega @12nm?
 
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Thunder 57

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How thats fine to you if the SKU thats replacing the 3400G at the same price performs slower in most iGPU tests, and the CPU results are way below Matisse? Remember that whats important here is the strong IGP perf, otherwise the 10100 is far better value, Intel better value.... facepalm.jpg


I would not call "particular need" buying an APU to use its IGP, thats the whole point of an APU, having a good CPU with a good IGP.


Look, the only reason Picasso will be still better for IGP gaming is because AMD has gotten greedy and these R3/R5 Renoirs are overpriced at 150/190. At 110/160 (thats already includes a price increase btw) there is no more need for Picasso.


While this may happen, it is up to the OEMs(if AMD is not AGESA blocking, thats a big IF), so far it did not happen. The A320 thing happened from day 1.



If thats true Renoir CPU perf for gaming will be below Zen+ CPUs and probably not that much faster than Picasso.
If those leaked numbers are real than that is a bit disappointing to be honest. I am skeptical because the 4750G basically matched the 3700X in Cinebench and x265. Same for the 4670G/3500X. Maybe in gaming it is just a complete turd. I also don't remember the 3200G/3400G being so much worse than Pinnacle Ridge in gaming. I am having a tough time finding a valid comparison though as nobody seems to have the 3400G and 2500X in the same benchmarks.

Based on that leak you may have a point. I still want to see confirmed gaming results first though. I still don't see how AMD can sell these cheaper than the same core Matisse variants seeing as you get an iGPU.

So I dug a bit more and this is the best I found so far. The 1300X vs the 2200G. Very similar clocks, 2200G has half the L3. In all but one game (and one outlier result in World of Tanks) they basically match each other in games. I'm not saying that leak is wrong. It just would seem odd that if Raven Ridge matched Summit Ridge in gaming and suddenly Renoir is noticeably worse than Matisse.

 

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