Yet another game developer driven out of her home by internet misogynists

[Exophase]

What will happen is that the internet will get more and more regulated all because a small group of idiots act like idiots and a bigger group of idiots enable them.

When anonymity on-line gets chipped away and the freedoms of the net get eroded just remember it was because people couldn't learn to police themselves like adults. They had to be treated like children.

The only bigger group of idiots enabling them is the media giving them the exact attention they crave. The publicity and scapegoating accomplishes absolutely nothing.

The real myth is this idea that a movement on the internet can police anonymous independent death threats from happening, even where there's no evidence whatsoever that the person is part of the movement.

 

[BoberFett]

Theres a lot of "Oh that just happens on the internet, you just have to ignore it." going on.

You have a strange notion of defending. Accepting is not defending. I accept that when I cross the street, a maniac might run me down. That doesn't mean I'm defending driving like a maniac.

 

[Rakehellion]

I bet literally 99% of gamers, male or female, could hardly care less about this one way or the other, and is just enjoying the ****show. Absolutely fantastic....can't wait to see how this ends, lol.

Exactly. If someone saying mean things about you on the internet is the worst thing to happen to you all day, that a first world problem that I can't give a rat's ass about.

Bottom line is, being a public figure leaves you susceptible to public scrutiny. How many death threats do you think Obama gets in a week?

 

[sweenish]

Exactly. If someone saying mean things about you on the internet is the worst thing to happen to you all day, that a first world problem that I can't give a rat's ass about.

Bottom line is, being a public figure leaves you susceptible to public scrutiny. How many death threats do you think Obama gets in a week?

While I'm sure it's at least a couple, would care to guess how many of them get prosecuted? It's more than what's happening here, that's for sure.

The "it happens all the time" line never equates to it being acceptable. I don't know if you were trying to imply that.

I agree with PA and other sane people on the matter. One should not think it is acceptable to threaten another being's life.

http://www.penny-arcade.com/news/post/2014/10/15/star-gourds

 

[BD2003]

Exactly. If someone saying mean things about you on the internet is the worst thing to happen to you all day, that a first world problem that I can't give a rat's ass about.



Bottom line is, being a public figure leaves you susceptible to public scrutiny. How many death threats do you think Obama gets in a week?

And that's the thing. Obviously these people are smart enough to know that. I doubt she even took the threat seriously, but immediately recognized its value in propelling her name into the news yet again. I literally have no idea who this Anita sarkeesian person is beyond the fact that she's getting death threats. But death threats are a dime a dozen....so what's different? She knows how to manipulate the media into getting her name into it, over and over and over. Reminds me of that Ian Bogost guy who seemingly never created any game worth talking about yet somehow managed to keep his name in the gaming press for years.

Kudos to her for so effectively pulling that off, I guess?

 

[BD2003]

While I'm sure it's at least a couple, would care to guess how many of them get prosecuted? It's more than what's happening here, that's for sure.

The "it happens all the time" line never equates to it being acceptable. I don't know if you were trying to imply that.

I agree with PA and other sane people on the matter. One should not think it is acceptable to threaten another being's life.

http://www.penny-arcade.com/news/post/2014/10/15/star-gourds

Doesn't it go without saying that death threats aren't okay? Prefacing what you're saying with a platitude shouldn't lend it any more weight or make it unassailable to criticism.

Here's the problem with the substance of what he's actually saying - it's essentially what the gamergate people are saying as well.

You can’t threaten people with the death of their culture, and I resent very strongly being made to type that out. Not only can you not do that because you can’t fucking do it, it has the power to obliterate everything else you say. In fact, it obliterates everything the people around you are trying to say. That’s what has happened now. I know that this situation is more complex than anyone is willing to enunciate. I know that “Gamer” is a contradiction in terms. But they’ve broken your banner, now, and you helped them do it. I grieve for the ones who tried to do it right. When your gaming culture don’t represent you, or actively attacks you as it has here, it’s not your gaming culture. You’ll have to make your own, and it’s not impossible. It’s more possible now than it has ever been in human history, and you’re reading an example of it at this moment. Go your own way.

I hear a lot of complaining about how sexist games and gamers are, and aside from gone home, very few games being created from a feminist perspective. Instead of trying to build their culture up, they're trying to tear the old culture down.

 

[sweenish]

Doesn't it go without saying that death threats aren't okay? Prefacing what you're saying with a platitude shouldn't lend it any more weight or make it unassailable to criticism.

I don't care about gamer culture. The fact that I enjoy and play games is incidental to this. "Gamer" mentality has never been my go-to, as it's always been hateful and stupid.

I should have specified. That platitude is the only thing I wanted emphasized. It should go without saying. But this thread is strongly indicating otherwise. So, I felt that it needed to be said.

Unless I misread the multiple people saying that death threats are a fine response and that she had it coming.

EDIT: I posted before I realized you manipulated that paragraph.

You can’t threaten people with death, and I resent very strongly being made to type that out. Not only can you not do that because you can’t fucking do it, it has the power to obliterate everything else you say. In fact, it obliterates everything the people around you are trying to say. That’s what has happened now. I know that this situation is more complex than anyone is willing to enunciate. I know that “Gaming Journalism” is a contradiction in terms. But they’ve broken your banner, now, and you helped them do it. I grieve for the ones who tried to do it right. When your media doesn’t represent you, or actively attacks you as it has here, it’s not your media. You’ll have to make your own, and it’s not impossible. It’s more possible now than it has ever been in human history, and you’re reading an example of it at this moment. Go your own way.

Adding in a few extra words does not mean that's what was implied. Not in the least. He's speaking strictly about the physical threats being issued. As in, it's not okay. Like everyone sane is saying, it shouldn't have to be said and it's incredible that we find ourselves having to say it.

You do bring up an interesting side topic that I wouldn't mind discussing, but this thread is certainly not the place.

 

[BD2003]

I don't care about gamer culture. The fact that I enjoy and play games is incidental to this. "Gamer" mentality has never been my go-to, as it's always been hateful and stupid.

I should have specified. That platitude is the only thing I wanted emphasized. It should go without saying. But this thread is strongly indicating otherwise. So, I felt that it needed to be said.

Unless I misread the multiple people saying that death threats are a fine response and that she had it coming.

EDIT: I posted before I realized you manipulated that paragraph.


Adding in a few extra words does not mean that's what was implied. Not in the least. He's speaking strictly about the physical threats being issued. As in, it's not okay. Like everyone sane is saying, it shouldn't have to be said and it's incredible that we find ourselves having to say it.

You do bring up an interesting side topic that I wouldn't mind discussing, but this thread is certainly not the place.

It's not a side topic, it's what started this whole mess. People declaring that gaming is dead. Then people found all those ethical lapses in gaming journalism, they tried to cover it up, death threats ensued, yada yada. The death threats are being blown out of proportion and used as a cover to silence their critics. Whichever way you side on the issue, there is absolutely no question they're silencing their critics, and basically telling them to "get their own media."

 

[Veliko]

You have a strange notion of defending. Accepting is not defending. I accept that when I cross the street, a maniac might run me down. That doesn't mean I'm defending driving like a maniac.

If a maniac ran down a member of your family, would you expect someone to blandly say "Oh that just happens on the roads, you just have to ignore it"?

 

[BD2003]

If a maniac ran down a member of your family, would you expect someone to blandly say "Oh that just happens on the roads, you just have to ignore it"?

Every time I get into my car, I accept the fact that some drunk idiot might kill me. I can either go on driving and live my life, or I can swear off driving forever. Until we have self driving cars, there is nothing anyone can say or do that will change that.

But we're not talking about something as serious as that anyway. There's virtually no barrier of entry to making a death threat on the Internet, and I can't think of any case where a gamer followed through on it, despite the millions upon millions of death threats that have been leveled at people over the years. I've probably been subject to no less than 10,000 over the years playing online games. I've lost count of how many people told me they were going to rape my mom.

 

[Veliko]

Every time I get into my car, I accept the fact that some drunk idiot might kill me. I can either go on driving and live my life, or I can swear off driving forever. Until we have self driving cars, there is nothing anyone can say or do that will change that.

I really don't see what your point is here.

If a drunk driver ran you over he would be jailed and no-one be just shrugging it off.

Someone can accept the fact that they may receive death threats on the Internet, whilst at the same time condemning the people who decide to go ahead and actually do it.

 

[sweenish]

It's not a side topic, it's what started this whole mess. People declaring that gaming is dead. Then people found all those ethical lapses in gaming journalism, they tried to cover it up, death threats ensued, yada yada. The death threats are being blown out of proportion and used as a cover to silence their critics. Whichever way you side on the issue, there is absolutely no question they're silencing their critics, and basically telling them to "get their own media."

Pretty sure this blew up over a major ethical lapse discovered in gaming journalism, which has been an oxymoron ever since it was conceived (gaming journalism, that is).

Said ethical lapses did not result from a declaration of gaming being dead.

The discussion is about threats of physical violence against those that are associated with the person accused of the major ethical lapses.

You're stretching, and you also didn't bother addressing my points. You can't change phrases and add words and assume you come out with the same meaning. PA was strictly talking about the simple fact that threats of physical violence are not okay. They're not even okay for the people making the threats, as it destroys their entire argument. It was not a veiled diatribe on "gamer culture" being attacked.

Gamer culture as a whole is an awful, terrible thing. It's the reason video games are still seen as merely a toy or a stigma that needs to be eliminated.

Gamer culture as it stands today does need to die, and the sane, sociable, charitable side needs to be what gamers are known for. Not this vitriolic, borderline hate crime stuff. Unfortunately, as long as those childish, hateful imps continue to be themselves, gamer culture will continue to be something that disgusts me. The best any of us can do is take away their ammunition by ignoring them, but now we're at the stage that SWAT teams are getting called into peoples' houses, that probably isn't enough.

Look at me, getting carried away on a side topic. I did say it was interesting. But you're wrong about the PA post. If you threaten someone's life or are okay with the fact that others do that as a part of their normal daily routine, you're not on the right side of things.

 

[BD2003]

I really don't see what your point is here.



If a drunk driver ran you over he would be jailed and no-one be just shrugging it off.



Someone can accept the fact that they may receive death threats on the Internet, whilst at the same time condemning the people who decide to go ahead and actually do it.

You're conflating someone actually dying with an almost certainly empty threat. It's silly.

Are you suggesting that we actually take all Internet death threats as seriously as attempted murder or something? That would literally cost us trillions of dollars and 75% of teenagers would get locked up. I mean come on, you can practically put on any random YouTube video and find death threats in the comments.

 

[Atomic Playboy]

It's not a side topic, it's what started this whole mess. People declaring that gaming is dead. Then people found all those ethical lapses in gaming journalism, they tried to cover it up, death threats ensued, yada yada. The death threats are being blown out of proportion and used as a cover to silence their critics. Whichever way you side on the issue, there is absolutely no question they're silencing their critics, and basically telling them to "get their own media."

This is the problem. Death threats are never acceptable. Period. Someone saying "gaming culture is dead" is not a death threat. You may perceive it as an attack on your culture, and it's appropriate to respond with a rebuttal for why that person is full of crap. But death threats are never the answer. If someone said the NFL is on its way out, am I allowed to threaten to kill them? Of course not; that's insane. The point that PA was making is that as soon as you make death threats, you not only undermine your argument, you also become toxic to everyone around you making the same argument. It completely destroys any credibility or opportunity for dialogue. The LAST thing people should do if they want to be taken seriously is try to rationalize the death threats: they weren't that serious, that happens on the internet, she threatened our culture. Bull****. Stop trying to defend the indefensible.

I mean, this is a gaming board, so chances are most people here agree that Sarkeesian and her ilk go way overboard in their critique of gaming culture. But as a mature adult I also know that "she should die" is not an appropriate response. Gamergate dropped the ball by letting the conversation become about death threats and sexism instead of actual issues concerning journalistic ethics, and they've doubled-down on it in here every single time someone tries to rationalize the threats that have been issued. What possible use is there in saying "death threats ensued, yada yada" as though that's some run-of-the-mill thing? It shouldn't be, and it's going to alienate lots of people who might otherwise support the cause.

 

[BD2003]

This is the problem. Death threats are never acceptable. Period. Someone saying "gaming culture is dead" is not a death threat. You may perceive it as an attack on your culture, and it's appropriate to respond with a rebuttal for why that person is full of crap. But death threats are never the answer. If someone said the NFL is on its way out, am I allowed to threaten to kill them? Of course not; that's insane. The point that PA was making is that as soon as you make death threats, you not only undermine your argument, you also become toxic to everyone around you making the same argument. It completely destroys any credibility or opportunity for dialogue. The LAST thing people should do if they want to be taken seriously is try to rationalize the death threats: they weren't that serious, that happens on the internet, she threatened our culture. Bull****. Stop trying to defend the indefensible.



I mean, this is a gaming board, so chances are most people here agree that Sarkeesian and her ilk go way overboard in their critique of gaming culture. But as a mature adult I also know that "she should die" is not an appropriate response. Gamergate dropped the ball by letting the conversation become about death threats and sexism instead of actual issues concerning journalistic ethics, and they've doubled-down on it in here every single time someone tries to rationalize the threats that have been issued. What possible use is there in saying "death threats ensued, yada yada" as though that's some run-of-the-mill thing? It shouldn't be, and it's going to alienate lots of people who might otherwise support the cause.

I guess I'm just desensitized by years of death threats actually being a run of the mill thing. I mean, here's literally an article about it from kotaku:

http://kotaku.com/5904367/another-d...rom-gamers-to-the-people-who-make-video-games

 

[BD2003]

Pretty sure this blew up over a major ethical lapse discovered in gaming journalism, which has been an oxymoron ever since it was conceived (gaming journalism, that is).

Said ethical lapses did not result from a declaration of gaming being dead.

The discussion is about threats of physical violence against those that are associated with the person accused of the major ethical lapses.

You're stretching, and you also didn't bother addressing my points. You can't change phrases and add words and assume you come out with the same meaning. PA was strictly talking about the simple fact that threats of physical violence are not okay. They're not even okay for the people making the threats, as it destroys their entire argument. It was not a veiled diatribe on "gamer culture" being attacked.

Gamer culture as a whole is an awful, terrible thing. It's the reason video games are still seen as merely a toy or a stigma that needs to be eliminated.

Gamer culture as it stands today does need to die, and the sane, sociable, charitable side needs to be what gamers are known for. Not this vitriolic, borderline hate crime stuff. Unfortunately, as long as those childish, hateful imps continue to be themselves, gamer culture will continue to be something that disgusts me. The best any of us can do is take away their ammunition by ignoring them, but now we're at the stage that SWAT teams are getting called into peoples' houses, that probably isn't enough.

Look at me, getting carried away on a side topic. I did say it was interesting. But you're wrong about the PA post. If you threaten someone's life or are okay with the fact that others do that as a part of their normal daily routine, you're not on the right side of things.

I thought it was fairly obvious that his comments were meant to extend beyond the mere threats. Perhaps I took it that way because I wanted to believe he had something more meaningful to say than "death threats aren't ok."

That being said, I do think it's kind of crazy how the same gaming media that would go to any lengths to combat censorship and defend the rights of gamers to play stuff like postal and manhunt has pretty much done a complete 180. A lot has changed in the past few years.

 

[Blue_Max]

I was "driven from my home" by the seven-year-old kid in my townhouse complex who was screaming, "Allah will cut your head off!"

I was so terrified and afraid for my safety, I fled from my home and promptly told everyone on line about it (and where I was staying now so you can send me money to pay the hotel bill... don't use that address to send any MORE threats, please!)

<3

 

[Veliko]

You're conflating someone actually dying with an almost certainly empty threat. It's silly.

Are you suggesting that we actually take all Internet death threats as seriously as attempted murder or something? That would literally cost us trillions of dollars and 75% of teenagers would get locked up. I mean come on, you can practically put on any random YouTube video and find death threats in the comments.

At the very least I'm suggesting that the attitude of "it's just the Internet, so it doesn't matter" is the wrong attitude.

 

[BD2003]

At the very least I'm suggesting that the attitude of "it's just the Internet, so it doesn't matter" is the wrong attitude.

It's not about right or wrong, it's just being realistic. If there was an easy solution we'd already have it. Publicizing it certainly isn't the answer, that just feeds the trolls.

So I dunno, I'm just used to it, I go on living my life. And given how everyone else in that article I posted just went on with their lives as well, I remain a little suspicious of the motives of the woman who was supposedly "driven from her home" by these threats. It plays right into the narrative and reeks of attention seeking.

 

[Fulle]

The Feminists have changed the conversation to be about misogynist threats, and away from anything Gamergate supporters want to discuss. Anita cancelling the USU event, and getting coverage on the New York Times and Washington Post, seems to have been a near killing blow.

The coverage has opened my eyes a bit more, into just how much the feminist agenda has gotten into online "journalism", though. Read the Washington Post article. Holy hell, some of this stuff is one sided. It makes me think the premise that much of the gaming subculture is under attack by journalists, is actually pretty real. Polygon in particular, seems to have a large number of clickbait anti-male gamer articles. Maybe when this lynch mob (Gamergate) burns itself out, some more reasonable members should continue on with a movement with a more focused mission statement.

 

[Blue_Max]

Yep... feminism... shaming males out of gaming culture to get back to slaving for women (while they cry the whole time about being "abused".)

*sigh* Looks like I have to go MGTOW... feminism has ruined the world.

 

[BoberFett]

If a maniac ran down a member of your family, would you expect someone to blandly say "Oh that just happens on the roads, you just have to ignore it"?

No, I expect the driver to be punished. As I hope the person making death threats is punished.

What I do NOT expect to see is all drivers everywhere being labeled as evil people merely for the fact that they drive a car, which Wu, Sarkeesian, et al have done in saying that all gamers are the problem.

 

[BoberFett]

Doesn't it go without saying that death threats aren't okay? Prefacing what you're saying with a platitude shouldn't lend it any more weight or make it unassailable to criticism.

Here's the problem with the substance of what he's actually saying - it's essentially what the gamergate people are saying as well.

You can’t threaten people with the death of their culture, and I resent very strongly being made to type that out. Not only can you not do that because you can’t fucking do it, it has the power to obliterate everything else you say. In fact, it obliterates everything the people around you are trying to say. That’s what has happened now. I know that this situation is more complex than anyone is willing to enunciate. I know that “Gamer” is a contradiction in terms. But they’ve broken your banner, now, and you helped them do it. I grieve for the ones who tried to do it right. When your gaming culture don’t represent you, or actively attacks you as it has here, it’s not your gaming culture. You’ll have to make your own, and it’s not impossible. It’s more possible now than it has ever been in human history, and you’re reading an example of it at this moment. Go your own way.

I hear a lot of complaining about how sexist games and gamers are, and aside from gone home, very few games being created from a feminist perspective. Instead of trying to build their culture up, they're trying to tear the old culture down.

:thumbsup:

 

[BoberFett]

This is the problem. Death threats are never acceptable. Period. Someone saying "gaming culture is dead" is not a death threat. You may perceive it as an attack on your culture, and it's appropriate to respond with a rebuttal for why that person is full of crap. But death threats are never the answer. If someone said the NFL is on its way out, am I allowed to threaten to kill them? Of course not; that's insane. The point that PA was making is that as soon as you make death threats, you not only undermine your argument, you also become toxic to everyone around you making the same argument. It completely destroys any credibility or opportunity for dialogue. The LAST thing people should do if they want to be taken seriously is try to rationalize the death threats: they weren't that serious, that happens on the internet, she threatened our culture. Bull****. Stop trying to defend the indefensible.

I mean, this is a gaming board, so chances are most people here agree that Sarkeesian and her ilk go way overboard in their critique of gaming culture. But as a mature adult I also know that "she should die" is not an appropriate response. Gamergate dropped the ball by letting the conversation become about death threats and sexism instead of actual issues concerning journalistic ethics, and they've doubled-down on it in here every single time someone tries to rationalize the threats that have been issued. What possible use is there in saying "death threats ensued, yada yada" as though that's some run-of-the-mill thing? It shouldn't be, and it's going to alienate lots of people who might otherwise support the cause.

How could Gamergate prevent the conversation become about death threats? Please show me the address of Gamergate headquarters where I can visit the CEO and ask him to release a statement about how the official line from Gamergate Corporation does not condone violent speech or acts.

One independent person made the threat. The other side then made the conversation about death threats. Gamergate support could dry up tomorrow, and the feminist side could continue the discussion about how death threats are an accepted part of gaming culture with absolutely nobody to say otherwise. Anybody can say anything they want.

 

[BD2003]

How could Gamergate prevent the conversation become about death threats? Please show me the address of Gamergate headquarters where I can visit the CEO and ask him to release a statement about how the official line from Gamergate Corporation does not condone violent speech or acts.



One independent person made the threat. The other side then made the conversation about death threats. Gamergate support could dry up tomorrow, and the feminist side could continue the discussion about how death threats are an accepted part of gaming culture with absolutely nobody to say otherwise. Anybody can say anything they want.

Yeah, I also think it's precious that they're treating gamergate like some centralized organization. It's literally random people typing a few letters preceded by a #. Every single time anyone publishes an article on it, it just stokes the flames, and I totally feel like there's this air of suspicion around anyone that doesn't accept everything the feminists are saying without question. I mean even here we're literally debating whether or not it's ok to make death threats...how ridiculous is that? I've had to resist the constant urge to preface everything I say with "not that I agree with death threats but...". It's really stifling to the conversation and the people leading this campaign, people who unlike the gamergate crowd, are absolutely organized and single mindedly coordinating a campaign...they're using this fear of not wanting to labeled a misogynist, and it's working, and THEY KNOW IT. It's gross.

Anyway, I also have noticed the completely one-sided feminist slant at polygon. It's getting a little too political and one sided for my tastes over there, and they've probably lost me as a reader unless they can recognize that. I still find the premise of this supposed feminist movement a little irritating - supposedly sarkeesian is known for producing a web series on how ridiculously women are portrayed in video games? Even if I don't disagree with the sentiment, it doesn't seem productive to me. If feminists or women want games that speak to them, they need to make them, plain and simple. If they prove there's an audience, the money and mega-corporations will follow. They're demanding respect and attention that they haven't earned...that's not how the real world works. Like the PA guy said, it's never been more possible ever before. This isn't a zero sum game, and they don't need to take down the bros to have their place.