Yet another game developer driven out of her home by internet misogynists

[Fulle]

Jesus Fucking Christ man! Nobody is defending terror tactics!

Do you think Gamergate is some organized group with a leader and a manifesto? Anybody can claim to be a part of it and say anything they want. What do you expect the 99% who are not part of the problem to say? Do they need to preface every sentence with a full disclaimer?

Shit, I could claim to be a feminist and then make outlandish statements about wanting to kill all men. Does that make feminists everywhere responsible for distancing themselves from me every time they open their mouths?

It's funny you mention that.... #killallmen was trending on Twitter last year. Not sure if it still is or not.

I've seen plenty of feminists discussing at what male to female ratio, would men no longer be a threat, and suggest that we should strive to have less males in the population one way or another. It's not an uncommon thing, actually. Some are just joking around, but others are dead serious.

 

[BoberFett]

It's funny you mention that.... #killallmen was trending on Twitter last year. Not sure if it still is or not.

I've seen plenty of feminists discussing at what male to female ratio, would men no longer be a threat, and suggest that we should strive to have less males in the population one way or another. It's not an uncommon thing, actually. Some are just joking around, but others are dead serious.

That's totally different. Because reason.

Yes, the SJW are truly that nuts. #killallmen is a funny joke, but #gamergate is hate speech.

 

[Nebor]

As someone who administers a gaming server, I see this virtually every day. As soon as a female comes in, everybody turns into a drooling, posturing macho jackass. "SHOW US YOUR TITS." You do what you can to prevent it; let people know it's unacceptable, ban the people who do it. But it happens virtually every time a (non-admin) woman comes on. And we're known as a woman-friendly server. To deny that misogyny is a legitimate issue in the gaming community just because you personally don't engage in it is willful ignorance. It exists, it's pervasive, and if your reaction to being told it exists is "SOCIAL JUSTICE WARRIOR, KILL THEM," you're part of the problem. I don't agree with Sarkeesian's broader claims about some inherent level of sexism being the basis of gaming culture, but pretending that there isn't some level of misogyny when three women have been driven from their homes through targeted threats? That's a pretty damning indictment.

This whole gamergate thing has become toxic. The movement has been hijacked by insane misogynists whose motivations are less about media involvement with gaming companies and more about "don't try to change our stuff." I can understand the desire to want to end media involvement with the corporations that produce games, especially the mass-market games, where we've seen a trend of releasing unfinished products to rave reviews that reeks of journalistic malfeasance on behalf of the gaming media. That's something worth exploring. But you can't do it on the backs of a movement that was started by a jilted ex-lover lying about his ex-girlfriend's sex life to discredit her, that is populated by people ignoring the crossovers of EA and IGN/Gamespot to focus on female indie game developers as though they're the reason gaming media is corrupt, that has made credible threats exclusively targeting women who have the gall to speak out against the industry (including threatening a school shooting, which is literally what terrorists do), and whose rhetoric is consistently shown that their issue is not with gaming media but with "feminazis" and "social justice warriors" who have the nerve to complain that sometimes games could be perceived as sexist. Gamergate is a PR nightmare for the people with legitimate complaints, because the actions of a few have made it symbolic with the assumed misogyny of gamers, and rather than distancing themselves from that, people are piping in with "well that's what you get." There's no place in that movement to address real issues; it's been co-opted by people who just want to bitch about women.

I don't join gaming servers or lobbies and announce my gender. So when a woman plays a game, and has a name like "gamergrrrll84" or "princesskillsalot" or whatever, it seems to me that their motivations for doing so are limited to a few options:
1) They want the attention and preferential treatment that accompanies being a woman in real life
2) They want to be able to claim that they're a victim, since victim status is the highest status there is in the feminist\SJW hierarchy.

There is no gender on the internet until someone introduces it on purpose.

 

[blastingcap]

And that isn't my argument. The people making using those tactics are bad people. However, they aren't racists or misogynists. The threats and statements used are targeted to hurt the person the most, not used out of some latent hate for women; and that is the entire problem with this situation. The people who are going to use these kinds of threats are going to use them, regardless of the person or stance. This isn't something that is a problem with the community; it is the problem with the very small minority of individuals who do them.

Is Michael Richards a bad person? Possibly. He responded to a heckler (which the club should have taken care of immediately) in a way he knew would offend. Is his a racist? Hardly. One incident of shouting a racial slur at a person intentionally being a jerkoff doesn't make one a racist.

Does the community of male gamers hate women because a few (if it is even a few, it could be the same person for all we know) choose to use explicit threats directed at a few individuals you've never heard of before they went on TV because they disagree with the stereotyping? Hardly.

If one wants to talk about the actual issues of how women are portrayed in video games or the issues they face as developers in a male dominated career field, calling every male in the industry a misogynist really doesn't lend to your credibility.

You make way too much of your flimsy argument which revolves around one-time intent in one specific circumstance. But depending on the circumstance, sometimes one-time intent doesn't matter. If I intended to shoot the guy behind you but kill you (an innocent bystander) instead, guess what, I'm at fault, and the best I can hope for is involuntary manslaughter. If you spout bigoted remarks but "don't mean it," you are still responsible for saying them. Unless it's obviously sarcasm or something, you're going to catch flak.

I'm not defending any overreactions by women btw, I'm just saying your argument is flimsy.

 

[blastingcap]

I don't join gaming servers or lobbies and announce my gender. So when a woman plays a game, and has a name like "gamergrrrll84" or "princesskillsalot" or whatever, it seems to me that their motivations for doing so are limited to a few options:
1) They want the attention and preferential treatment that accompanies being a woman in real life
2) They want to be able to claim that they're a victim, since victim status is the highest status there is in the feminist\SJW hierarchy.

There is no gender on the internet until someone introduces it on purpose.

You literally want to silence female gamers. Want to use voicechat? Okay but only if you're male.

 

[smackababy]

See, this is an actual dialogue that could lead to a productive conversation. I agree with your latter point that simply leaping to calling all gamers misogynists is counter-productive. However, I'm never going to agree with defending the actions of the verifiable misogynists who have made these threats. That's the dividing line. I think there's a productive conversation to be had and it's being subverted by bigots and lunatics who think terror tactics are an acceptable means of discourse. I'm just flabbergasted that you appear to be defending those tactics rather than saying, "screw each and every one of those misogynistic creeps, they don't represent us, let's discuss the actual issue of whether gaming is inherently misogynistic" (and I personally don't believe it is). That's where gamergate has utterly dropped the ball from a PR perspective in my view. Stop wasting your time trying to legitimize an inherently illegitimate strategy, as it just ends up looking like an endorsement of that illegitimate strategy and it's nothing but a distraction. Distance yourself from the lunatic fringe.

One, nobody is defending the people who sent death threats or posted personal information. Not a single person has defended that type of behavior from what I've seen. However, I have seen quite a few one the receiving end of said threats quick to cry "misogynist" on all male gamers because of it.

AND, gamergater isn't about whether or not sexism exists in games. It is about the unethical, whether actual or just perceived, behavior of developers / producers and gaming journalists. In every other industry giving gifts and dating people who are involved in purchasing or promoting your companies products is against company policy, if not outright illegal. That isn't the case with gaming journalists, because rather than simply say "Yes, it was inappropriate and will be dealt with internally" the publishers of articles simply say "Nuh-uh!" And that has ruined their credibility in my and many other gamer's eyes.

You make way too much of your flimsy argument which revolves around intent. Sometimes intent doesn't matter. If I intended to shoot the guy behind you but kill you (an innocent bystander) instead, guess what, I'm at fault. If you spout bigoted remarks but "don't mean it," you are still at fault unless it's pretty damn obvious it's sarcasm or something else.

I'm not defending any overreactions by women btw, I'm just saying your argument is really flimsy.

And what you're at fault for is not being those things, rather just being an **REMOVED**.




No personal attacks and no cursing.

Anandtech Administrator
KeithTalent

 

[GoodRevrnd]

I haven't really noticed the "show us your boobs" behavior as much as I used to. On the other hand, I tend to game with more insular communities than I used to and have not had any COD type exposure in quite some time either, so I probably don't have a very complete picture any more. =p

 

[Subyman]

I haven't really noticed the "show us your boobs" behavior as much as I used to. On the other hand, I tend to game with more insular communities than I used to and have not had any COD type exposure in quite some time either, so I probably don't have a very complete picture any more. =p

Me and you both. I quit playing COD around the time MW came out. I played a bit of The Crew beta recently on PS4 and had to turn off the player voices because of slurs and junk. Kills the game for me. Sucks the communities aren't better. I do remember playing original Everquest and I remember the communities being much, much better than they are now. I believe Counterstrike was always a cess pool though, but I could be wrong.

 

[Nebor]

You literally want to silence female gamers. Want to use voicechat? Okay but only if you're male.

Unless they announce that they're female, the worst that'll happen is people will accuse them of being a 12 year old boy.

 

[blastingcap]

Unless they announce that they're female, the worst that'll happen is people will accuse them of being a 12 year old boy.

Most people can tell the difference between female and male voices.

 

[smackababy]

Most people can tell the difference between female and male voices.

I am not sure why you are even arguing with him. He is an idiot. Announcing oneself as a female only falls into this two idiotic categories. I mean, you'd never pick the name 'princess kills alot" unless you were trying to play the victim.

 

[Nebor]

Most people can tell the difference between female and male voices.

I've never seen guys go crazy on the mic over a female just because she sounded like a female.

 

[blastingcap]

And what you're at fault for is not being those things, rather just being an [edited].

I responded to your point with reasons why it's weak.

You responded by calling names with no further explanation.

I'm going to take that to mean that even you realize, deep down, how flimsy your argument is.

 

[Exophase]

To those of you who think that Gamergate is really an organized campaign to keep women out of gaming, game development, or game journalism, I have to ask: where is the actual evidence? What are the artifacts? You would expect to see blog posts, forums, and chartered organizations to this effect. You would expect to see picketing outside of studios. You would expect to see organized plans to hit particular game companies. You would expect to see blackmail with an actual stated goal of getting women to leave their jobs (not their homes).

As it stands now, you would have a very hard time finding even a single person talking about wanting fewer women in games. Go ahead, I challenge you to find anything like this.

What we do have is a handful of individuals who are highly visible, controversial, antagonistic, dismissive and deflective, suspected of being less than honest, and I daresay privileged. Oh, and they're also women. The thing is, a public personality who is well known (be it on the internet, movies, TV, in a company, whatever) is going to eventually be harassed, and in increasingly vile ways - all the moreso if people have any reason to not especially like this person. I can point to several well known examples of this, but I really shouldn't have to. If you're visible to hundreds of thousands to millions of people you will be visible to at least a handful of those with severe mental issues. Or at the very least some highly extreme trolls and misanthropes. That is a statistical guarantee.

Only some don't seem to understand this because usually, reports such as these are kept private. Normally it doesn't benefit anyone to make a media spectacle out of it. But such a cult of victimhood has formed around certain special interests that death threats are being used as the ultimate media trump card. This is a relatively recent phenomenon whose novelty has not worn off.

When you get down to it, individuals such as Zoe Quinn and Brianna Wu, regardless of their innocence, are stressing a social critique based on nothing more than their personal experiences, which for better or worse are colored by their own preconceptions. They do not speak for nor represent all female developers, much less women in general. Nobody has stopped them from making games or being heard and I doubt anyone will stop them in the future. It's up to them if they want to focus on their contribution to games or if they want to paint themselves a perpetual centerpiece of all that the patriarchy has damned women for.

Now as far as I'm concerned with Brianna Wu, she deserves much credit and respect because she did legitimately go out and form a game studio. And she did in fact make what looks to be a pretty respectable game (as opposed to a manipulative piece of boring interactive fiction). No one can accuse her of not being the change that she wanted. She talks about it more in her article here:

https://<medium dot com>/the-magazine/goty-2013-badass-girls-need-not-apply-1b56d8c8a1fb (sorry, AT is censoring the web site for some reason, you'll have to fix the link)

But at the same time, she brings some pretty glaring double standards to the table. She blames an unwelcome industry for not hiring women, but turns around and starts a studio that explicitly refuses to hire anything but women, justifying this as being a legitimate preference. The question isn't even asked if male developers really don't want to work with women - what if it's the women who don't want to work with men? Is she not a prime example of such a woman? Sounds like she really wants to have her cake and eat it too.

And when it comes to old school Lara Croft, she has to say:

"Lara Croft started her gaming career in 1996 as a ridiculously large-breasted sex symbol, a trend that largely continued for the next eight sequels as Croft&#8217;s main character traits were a butt, breasts, and figure meticulously sculpted to appeal to the male gaze."

But when it comes to her own game, well...

http://www.cnet.com/news/revolution-60-a-game-by-and-about-badass-women/

That would be three women with skin tight clothing, large breasts, impossible barbie doll proportions, and even the ever popular T&A-spinal-injury-twist pose.

Finally, I have to say that when you're taking one isolated person's subjective and anecdotal opinion of a social problem you have to look at it through their own personal lens and see how much this aligns with common reports and statistics. This quote of hers particularly stood out:

"I would say this - we draw 100 times the critique simply simply having women in our game in the first place. I'd say, simply including women in any shape or form will draw tremendous political ire."

http://www.reddit.com/r/GirlGamers/comments/2cfdq8/revolution_60_a_game_by_and_about_badass_women/

100 times the ire for including women in any shape or form in a game? Seriously, what planet do you live on Brianna, when does this ever happen with the tremendous number of games prominently featuring women? With comments like this I find it really hard to take her criticism of the industry on faith.

 

[smackababy]

I responded to your point with reasons why it's weak.

You responded by calling names with no further explanation.

I'm going to take that to mean that even you realize, deep down, how flimsy your argument is.

I wasn't calling you names. I apologize for the confusion. I meant you are at fault if you call someone a racial slur, however, if you are simply trying to get a rouse out of them and that is the easiest way, you aren't a racist, just a big a hole.

 

[BoberFett]

Great post Exophase.

 

[blastingcap]

I wasn't calling you names. I apologize for the confusion. I meant you are at fault if you call someone a racial slur, however, if you are simply trying to get a rouse out of them and that is the easiest way, you aren't a racist, just a big a hole.

OK apology accepted; the way it was written made it look like you were talking to me.

I could have retaliated in kind but did not.

Maybe that's a good segue into this: I think what we can all agree on is that everyone involved in #gamergate--men and women, boys and girls--should calm down and recognize that there are different ways to look at the same issue. E.g., Exophase made some good points, exposing Wu's hypocrisy in crazy female proportions for instance while acknowledging her valid points at the same time.

 

[Subyman]

Exophase, excellent post. I dare say that hypocrisy is the easiest thing to say to try to undermine someone's point or ideal though, nearly everyone is guilty of it. However, you provide an great example of her hyperbole; I had not seen the statement that she made about the ire of a woman in a videogame. I believe that is unfounded as well. Thank you for expanding on the topic in a well spoken way. Sometimes it is hard to formulate a great overview of the topic when so many sub-arguments are taking place.

I haven't heard anyone claim there is an organized group trying to push away women. I think it is more of a cultural clique that surrounds several areas of gaming that tend to spill over into gaming in general sometimes. People in this thread have pointed to excellent examples such as Pay Day's community or pretty much any FPS online game. As for a career, I would venture to say that simply working in an environment that is 80% male would create certain issues for females. In my opinion, this will change over time as more women get into programming in general as they have in engineering. Whereas the engineering field was highly receptive of women, I think its still up for debate if some studios are having issues integrating more women, obviously some women have become disenfranchised but I'm still not completely certain if its a wide spread issue.

She seems to have had bad experiences with men in gaming in the past and, perhaps subconsciously, tries to illicit negative responses in an attempt to show the world what she went through. I do not know her personally, so obviously that's speculation.

One thing is certain, the morons that keep pouring fuel on the fire in the form of death threats or bomb threats aren't helping anyone.

 

[GoodRevrnd]

Anyone remember this?

http://abcnews.go.com/US/tweet-sony-exec-john-smedleys-flight-diverted/story?id=25114795

Yes. My plane was diverted. Not going to discuss more than that. Justice will find these guys.
&#8212; John Smedley (@j_smedley) August 24, 2014

Not going to discuss more than that.
Not going to discuss more than that.

 

[DigDog]

The bolded is what part of the problem is. Ask the people on the receiving end just how "silly" a death or rape threat is. Especially when they tweet out your home address.

the "funny" thing about this (funny, if you like human psychology as a hobby) is that the threats have power, because they are taken seriously.

trolls will use them just because they know that one particular person won't scoff at "i will come to your house and rape you". as anyone who has lived through the "good luck i'm behind 7 proxies" era would. I admit that for a troll googling your name long enough to find an address is impressive, but taking seriously a internet threat in a no-no. Internet 101. If it takes zero effort to make the threat, then the threat has zero weight.

 

[GoodRevrnd]

http://www.cnet.com/news/revolution-60-a-game-by-and-about-badass-women/

When you watch a guy playtest a game, they frequently want to attack as fast as possible. I have gone into playtests and seen men hammer on the iPad so hard I was afraid they would break the screen. What's interesting is, women generally don't approach a game like that. The twitch reflexes for an Infinity Blade stress them out. So, we made a game that relies on pattern recognition and timing," she said, stressing, "It's not that Revolution 60 is game made just for women. But, by including women in our testing -- we made it a game accessible to women.

Damn... that actually strikes me as a kinda sexist take (ignoring the comment painting guys as apish) on women gamers. Eliminating twitch components boils down to making a game more accessible to casual / new / etc. gamers, not women. This is especially true in the mobile space where gaming is more accessible (as in literal access, in this case) to everyone, period. In reality, fewer women just grew up playing twitch games, and twitch skills are a lot harder to develop once you're older. Go stick a 12 year old girl who's been playing Minecraft nonstop for the last 3 years in front of Portal and watch how well she does. Or warp back to 1985 and give an elderly office worker a mouse and watch what happens.

I'm all for innovating new control schemes/mechanics (not really, #MouseOrDie #PCMasterRace) that may make gaming inviting for more, different types of people with varying skills (and personally, I generally hate twitch on mobile devices), especially if it's going to expose non-enthusiasts to more genres beyond Candy Crush, but there's no need to sell women short.

 

[Subyman]

http://www.cnet.com/news/revolution-60-a-game-by-and-about-badass-women/


Damn... that actually strikes me as a kinda sexist take (ignoring the comment painting guys as apish) on women gamers. Eliminating twitch components boils down to making a game more accessible to casual / new / etc. gamers, not women. This is especially true in the mobile space where gaming is more accessible (as in literal access, in this case) to everyone, period. In reality, fewer women just grew up playing twitch games, and twitch skills are a lot harder to develop once you're older. Go stick a 12 year old girl who's been playing Minecraft nonstop for the last 3 years in front of Portal and watch how well she does. Or warp back to 1985 and give an elderly office worker a mouse and watch what happens.

I'm all for innovating new control schemes/mechanics (not really, #MouseOrDie #PCMasterRace) that may make gaming inviting for more, different types of people with varying skills (and personally, I generally hate twitch on mobile devices), especially if it's going to expose non-enthusiasts to more genres beyond Candy Crush, but there's no need to sell women short.

Yeah she's certainly not versed well in the potential demographics of her play testers or she didn't ask the right questions. The guys "mashing" on the screen were likely gaming enthusiasts while the females were likely more casual gamers. I find it hard to believe the people play testing were bashing the screen so hard she was scared it would break. Again with her hyperbole.

 

[WelshBloke]

One, nobody is defending the people who sent death threats or posted personal information.

Theres a lot of "Oh that just happens on the internet, you just have to ignore it." going on.

Well no, it doesn't have to be ignored.

What will happen is that the internet will get more and more regulated all because a small group of idiots act like idiots and a bigger group of idiots enable them.

When anonymity on-line gets chipped away and the freedoms of the net get eroded just remember it was because people couldn't learn to police themselves like adults. They had to be treated like children.

 

[DarkKnightDude]

Is this related with the gamergate thing?

 

[BD2003]

Man, I can't believe how far this has gotten. I dunno, it all just seems so precious to me.

You've got a culture with a disproportionate amount of nerdy guys who are terrified of women and bullied by jocks and bros...being antagonized by women for being bros who bully them. But you'd think from the level of angst that nerds, manly men or anyone without a vagina no longer has any place in gaming, when in reality they still completely dominate it.

You've also got the aggrieved, self righteous feminist minority being treated like they're martin luther king because they're getting death threats...when death threats are so cheap that game developers get them for game balance changes. And in a post 9-11, post columbine world, who can say there's nothing to it? And being threatened plays into their narrative, and it gets them even more coverage.

Coverage that games "journalists" are more than happy to give, as they continually stoke the flames of this controversy to drive traffic, all while maintaining a politically correct stance that's so unassailable it completely blocks out the conversation they claim needs to be had. They say "you can't terrorize us into silence" with absolutely no irony whatsoever.

You've got all these groups with self righteous elements striving for self importance while playing dirty, all pointing the finger at each other. Meanwhile I bet literally 99% of gamers, male or female, could hardly care less about this one way or the other, and is just enjoying the ****show. Absolutely fantastic....can't wait to see how this ends, lol.