Yes we can,,,,,but not right now.

[Ozoned]

Originally posted by: sandorski

Originally posted by: Starbuck1975
The Obama campaign's soaring rhetoric has set unrealistic expectations for what his Administration can hope to achieve.

Hopefully, he is equally competent in managing, and inevitably lowering, the expectations he has set.

All great movements start with great rhetoric. MLK, Ghandi, US Founding Fathers, Mohammed, Jesus, Moses, etc...

Obama may not succeed, only time will tell, but first one needs to Inspire.

ummm, consider if you will Gandhi's advice to the Jews of Germany just before the Second World War:
If I were a Jew and were born in Germany...I would claim Germany as my home even as the tallest gentile German might, and challenge him to shoot me or cast me in the dungeon. Truely inspiring. I wonder if this is how Obama would challenge aggression after he tears down our military???

 

[alphatarget1]

Originally posted by: Vic

You act like there is something wrong with being an inspirational leader. There isn't.

Of course it is wrong to believe in any modern American politician. They got to where they are by deception and lies, and Obama is no exception. He just hasn't been in the game long enough.

I think this two party system is flawed, that moderates like myself don't really have a choice. McCain (in 2000) would most closely resemble my definition of a moderate. The economic mess we're in is a demonstration of a collective failure of our society (greed, consumption, etc), and both parties (and people who elected them) are to blame. To believe that any Democrat or Republican would bring change for the better, without the record to back it up, is just absurd.

 

[Descartes]

In my honest opinion, these unrealistic expectations are not the fault of Obama. One of the first things I respected about his positions is that he was realistic, not committing to unrealistic expectations and trying to sell people on what he can accomplish. When asked if he can turn around the economic situation in 4 years, he's always added caution and pointed out that no one can turn it around in 4 years.

To be fair, I don't believe McCain has oversold either. I just think that many supporters of Obama are indeed euphoric, as though the man will work miracles. Reasonable people know that's not true, and the best we can hope for is that maximum results that can be achieved by a steadfast, rational and intelligent leader.

 

[sandorski]

Originally posted by: Ozoned

Originally posted by: sandorski

Originally posted by: Starbuck1975
The Obama campaign's soaring rhetoric has set unrealistic expectations for what his Administration can hope to achieve.

Hopefully, he is equally competent in managing, and inevitably lowering, the expectations he has set.

All great movements start with great rhetoric. MLK, Ghandi, US Founding Fathers, Mohammed, Jesus, Moses, etc...

Obama may not succeed, only time will tell, but first one needs to Inspire.

ummm, consider if you will Gandhi's advice to the Jews of Germany just before the Second World War:
If I were a Jew and were born in Germany...I would claim Germany as my home even as the tallest gentile German might, and challenge him to shoot me or cast me in the dungeon. Truely inspiring. I wonder if this is how Obama would challenge aggression after he tears down our military???

what?

 

[sandorski]

Originally posted by: crisscross

Originally posted by: sandorski

Originally posted by: Starbuck1975
The Obama campaign's soaring rhetoric has set unrealistic expectations for what his Administration can hope to achieve.

Hopefully, he is equally competent in managing, and inevitably lowering, the expectations he has set.

All great movements start with great rhetoric. MLK, Ghandi, US Founding Fathers, Mohammed, Jesus, Moses, etc...

Obama may not succeed, only time will tell, but first one needs to Inspire.

At least spell his name right.. it's Gandhi I could never understand how so many Americans smell his name wrong.

Americans do it becaues they can't Spell. I do it just to piss you off!!

I'll try to remember the spelling.

 

[Born2bwire]

Originally posted by: sandorski

Originally posted by: Ozoned

Originally posted by: sandorski

Originally posted by: Starbuck1975
The Obama campaign's soaring rhetoric has set unrealistic expectations for what his Administration can hope to achieve.

Hopefully, he is equally competent in managing, and inevitably lowering, the expectations he has set.

All great movements start with great rhetoric. MLK, Ghandi, US Founding Fathers, Mohammed, Jesus, Moses, etc...

Obama may not succeed, only time will tell, but first one needs to Inspire.

ummm, consider if you will Gandhi's advice to the Jews of Germany just before the Second World War:
If I were a Jew and were born in Germany...I would claim Germany as my home even as the tallest gentile German might, and challenge him to shoot me or cast me in the dungeon. Truely inspiring. I wonder if this is how Obama would challenge aggression after he tears down our military???

what?

Seriously, what the hell does that have to do with anything? Just when you think you've heard the dumbest thing on record, somebody has to make another post in P&N.

 

[Muse]

Originally posted by: Corbett

Originally posted by: techs
McCain lays plans to kill his campaign staff....

:Q

No, Hitler did that. Well, after they tried to kill him.

 

[Muse]

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: alphatarget1

Originally posted by: Vic
There's no logic to this particular attack, it's just emotional and catch-22 silly. It starts with the false premise that, to support Obama, we have to believe he is some kind of political god. But of course, he's not one.

Many young Obamabots really believe that he is the Messiah.

That's an exaggeration, but SO WHAT? You act like there is something wrong with being an inspirational leader. There isn't.
And in fact, with troubling times on the horizon for America, I believe that's exactly the kind of leader America needs right now. Or at the very least someone more inspirational than monotone McCain.
FFS, we're electing someone to be the President of this country. Don't you think that he should at least be Presidential?

I concur. It took me a long time to pick up on the excitement surrounding Obama's candidacy. I knew it was there, I heard a lot about it, sort of like hearing that a tidal wave was coming, but didn't sense it personally. I have only come to understand it since after the convention. I figured that Obama's campaign would generate some momentum after the convention similar to the momentum that eventually overtook Hillary's campaign.

Personally, I hoped for this, because under the current conditions we need a leader who people can rally around. That's one quality that's virtually instrumental now. Of course, there are dangers sometimes with charismatic leaders, but I'm not afraid of Obama.

 

[JS80]

Originally posted by: techs
McCain lays plans to kill his campaign staff after loss.

He should start with himself.

 

[shadow9d9]

Originally posted by: eleison

Originally posted by: techs
Let's see:
Not Bush? Check.
Not McCain? Check.

Expectations met.

Wow.. .you are easily satisfied... Do you not even care if his "redistribute the wealth" will cause companies to scale back hiring people and ultimately lead to more unemployment? Probably not.. as long as its not Bush or McCain, correct? ;-)

Do I care about one statement he made that simply meant it is time for the middle class to get cuts instead of the rich? Nope. No amount of fear and smearing will change that.

 

[shadow9d9]

Originally posted by: eleison

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

Originally posted by: eleison

Originally posted by: sandorski

Originally posted by: Starbuck1975
The Obama campaign's soaring rhetoric has set unrealistic expectations for what his Administration can hope to achieve.

Hopefully, he is equally competent in managing, and inevitably lowering, the expectations he has set.

All great movements start with great rhetoric. MLK, Ghandi, US Founding Fathers, Mohammed, Jesus, Moses, etc...

Obama may not succeed, only time will tell, but first one needs to Inspire.

Yes, but then there are some bad movements that started with great rhetoric:

Hitlers raise to power
Bolsheviks revolution
The Mao cultural revolution
Pol Pots

And on a more relevant, Jimmy Carters - "hope and change" administration, that by more historians was a rather weak administration...

LOL, Hitler, Lenin, Mao, Pol Pot and Carter. What a silly gat you are.

What do all these historical figures have in common? They are considered the greatest orators of their time. Hitler was consider one of the greatest speakers of the century by speech experts. And he did it w/o a teleprompter. As a matter of fact, people still study his speeches.

I'm not trying to compare Obama to these tyrants... I'm just saying having good "rhetoric" doesn't always make a great leader. "Spread the wealth" my friend

Looks like you really are drinking the GOP kool aid. That is twice in a row you mentioned one statement he made as if it meant something other than another last ditch fear tactic.

Cut taxes of the rich... it'll trickle down!

It doesn't....

Remove the tax cuts for the rich and give it to the middle class and it'll hurt the economy and make us socialist!

Umm, no it won't.

 

[crisscross]

Originally posted by: sandorski

Originally posted by: crisscross

Originally posted by: sandorski

Originally posted by: Starbuck1975
The Obama campaign's soaring rhetoric has set unrealistic expectations for what his Administration can hope to achieve.

Hopefully, he is equally competent in managing, and inevitably lowering, the expectations he has set.

All great movements start with great rhetoric. MLK, Ghandi, US Founding Fathers, Mohammed, Jesus, Moses, etc...

Obama may not succeed, only time will tell, but first one needs to Inspire.

At least spell his name right.. it's Gandhi I could never understand how so many Americans smell his name wrong.

Americans do it becaues they can't Spell. I do it just to piss you off!!

I'll try to remember the spelling.

Cheers.. :beer:

 

[RY62]

Originally posted by: seemingly random

Originally posted by: umbrella39

Originally posted by: alphatarget1

Originally posted by: Vic
There's no logic to this particular attack, it's just emotional and catch-22 silly. It starts with the false premise that, to support Obama, we have to believe he is some kind of political god. But of course, he's not one.

Many young Obamabots really believe that he is the Messiah.

Really? I hear this echoed a lot but have never actually seen anyone, or mass groups of people for that matter, that think Obama is some sort of God.

I hear this too but don't know of the source or an example. I think to put anyone up on a pedastal and make them a messiah-like figure is weak.

Anyone have an example of a person or group of people claiming that he's a messiah? (other than prankster slogan writers.)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OowxMcVTjTE

Addressing a large crowd behind a podium Feb. 24 with a Nation of Islam Saviour's Day 2008 sign, Louis Farrakhan proclaims,

"You are the instruments that God is going to use to bring about universal change, and that is why Barack has captured the youth. And he has involved young people in a political process that they didn't care anything about. That's a sign. When the Messiah speaks, the youth will hear, and the Messiah is absolutely speaking."

-------------------------
"The American people will never knowingly adopt socialism. But, under the name of 'liberalism,' they will adopt every fragment of the socialist program, until one day America will be a socialist nation, without knowing how it happened."
- Norman Thomas, U.S. Socialist Party presidential candidate? 1940, 1944 and 1948

 

[SagaLore]

Originally posted by: jpeyton
Awesome! Glad to see he's grounded in reality.

Well, at least not until after he wins the election based on false hopes.

 

[SleepWalkerX]

Originally posted by: sandorski

Originally posted by: Starbuck1975
The Obama campaign's soaring rhetoric has set unrealistic expectations for what his Administration can hope to achieve.

Hopefully, he is equally competent in managing, and inevitably lowering, the expectations he has set.

All great movements start with great rhetoric. MLK, Ghandi, US Founding Fathers, Mohammed, Jesus, Moses, etc...

Obama may not succeed, only time will tell, but first one needs to Inspire.

Here's the problem. All those great people worked AGAINST the establishment to bring change (and ironically our forefathers established the same system that they were escaping from, albeit slightly modified). Obama is working for the establishment. This is simply why things will not change as much as you'd like them too. I'm willing to bet that the troops will not be sent home within 16 months as originally promised, national health care will simply be a hospital with great monopoly privilege that you're forced to pay for if even enacted at all, and taxes will most likely go up for everybody.

This is the same reason I became disillusioned with Ron Paul. Ron Paul represents something really great (imho), but suddenly everyone is dependent and reliant on Ron Paul instead of real message of liberty. Relying on a man is not going to bring change. That is something that is decided through the people and is something practiced through the people.

I'm not sure what kind of change you're expecting, but real change, the kind of change that Gandhi or Martin Luther King brought, is not the kind that's hand delivered to you on a silver platter and especially not from Uncle Sam, or Barack Obama.

"Freedom is never voluntarily given by the oppressor; it must be demanded by the oppressed."
-- Martin Luther King, Jr.

 

[Throckmorton]

Originally posted by: SleepWalkerX

Originally posted by: sandorski

Originally posted by: Starbuck1975
The Obama campaign's soaring rhetoric has set unrealistic expectations for what his Administration can hope to achieve.

Hopefully, he is equally competent in managing, and inevitably lowering, the expectations he has set.

All great movements start with great rhetoric. MLK, Ghandi, US Founding Fathers, Mohammed, Jesus, Moses, etc...

Obama may not succeed, only time will tell, but first one needs to Inspire.

Here's the problem. All those great people worked AGAINST the establishment to bring change (and ironically our forefathers established the same system that they were escaping from, albeit slightly modified). Obama is working for the establishment. This is simply why things will not change as much as you'd like them too. I'm willing to bet that the troops will not be sent home within 16 months as originally promised, national health care will simply be a hospital with great monopoly privilege that you're forced to pay for if even enacted at all, and taxes will most likely go up for everybody.

This is the same reason I became disillusioned with Ron Paul. Ron Paul represents something really great (imho), but suddenly everyone is dependent and reliant on Ron Paul instead of real message of liberty. Relying on a man is not going to bring change. That is something that is decided through the people and is something practiced through the people.

I'm not sure what kind of change you're expecting, but real change, the kind of change that Gandhi or Martin Luther King brought, is not the kind that's hand delivered to you on a silver platter and especially not from Uncle Sam, or Barack Obama.

"Freedom is never voluntarily given by the oppressor; it must be demanded by the oppressed."
-- Martin Luther King, Jr.

Who passed the Civil Rights Act? Who sent the National Guard to protect black kids from segregationists? Change comes from within and without the establishment, and there's no Bastille to storm anymore. Also, don't forget that the government IS the people

 

[nick1985]

Originally posted by: jpeyton
Awesome! Glad to see he's grounded in reality.

Now imagine your response if this article was about McCain. Im sure you would be saying the exact same thing...

 

[Xavier434]

This is to be expected. These are not political games or lies or any of that horse shit. This is simply realistic.

Time tables for solutions is something you will find very little of from either McCain or Obama. However, both of them have tried to urge the public that there is nothing that can be done by anyone that will be a quick and effective solution. It will take time and a lot of it. Neither of them can do much about people's desperation when it comes to the desire to turn this country around and lead it in the right direction. All they can do is express their goals.

However, there is some good news even for those who some how believe that any president can magically make solutions appear in a matter of months. These people firmly believe that Obama can make this happen and what you will see when he gets elected is that the spirits and motivation amongst these people get lifted by quite a bit and that sort of thing will hopefully replenish what this country has been lacking the most. When people are more confident and motivated about their country they tend to work harder in order to get to a point where they are more comfortable and that is a very good thing for all of us. That is change that we will see right away. As far as the rest of the "real solutions" to the "real problems" are concerned, those will take a lot of time but there is little anyone can do about that.

 

[Red Dawn]

Originally posted by: eleison

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

Originally posted by: eleison

Originally posted by: sandorski

Originally posted by: Starbuck1975
The Obama campaign's soaring rhetoric has set unrealistic expectations for what his Administration can hope to achieve.

Hopefully, he is equally competent in managing, and inevitably lowering, the expectations he has set.

All great movements start with great rhetoric. MLK, Ghandi, US Founding Fathers, Mohammed, Jesus, Moses, etc...

Obama may not succeed, only time will tell, but first one needs to Inspire.

Yes, but then there are some bad movements that started with great rhetoric:

Hitlers raise to power
Bolsheviks revolution
The Mao cultural revolution
Pol Pots

And on a more relevant, Jimmy Carters - "hope and change" administration, that by more historians was a rather weak administration...

LOL, Hitler, Lenin, Mao, Pol Pot and Carter. What a silly gat you are.

What do all these historical figures have in common? They are considered the greatest orators of their time. Hitler was consider one of the greatest speakers of the century by speech experts. And he did it w/o a teleprompter. As a matter of fact, people still study his speeches.

I'm not trying to compare Obama to these tyrants... I'm just saying having good "rhetoric" doesn't always make a great leader. "Spread the wealth" my friend

Jimmy Carter, Lenin and Pol Pot were considered the greatest orators of their time?:roll:

 

[Genx87]

This thread delivers.

Obama is the man for change vote for him. Now that he cant deliver nor is willing to make that change he is a man of pragmatism so we should vote for him.

Can do no wrong!

 

[Xavier434]

Originally posted by: Genx87
This thread delivers.

Obama is the man for change vote for him. Now that he cant deliver nor is willing to make that change he is a man of pragmatism so we should vote for him.

Can do no wrong!

He never said he cannot deliver the goals he has set forth. All that he is trying to do here is the same thing that both him and McCain have been trying to do over the past few months. That is, convince the people that this shit takes time and that's the bottom line. Where is the problem?

 

[Genx87]

Originally posted by: Xavier434

Originally posted by: Genx87
This thread delivers.

Obama is the man for change vote for him. Now that he cant deliver nor is willing to make that change he is a man of pragmatism so we should vote for him.

Can do no wrong!

He never said he cannot deliver the goals he has set forth. All that he is trying to do here is the same thing that both him and McCain have been trying to do over the past few months. That is, convince the people that this shit takes time and that's the bottom line. Where is the problem?

Nothing, I was making an amusing observation about certain members attitude. I'd bet if he came back and said he will accomplish nothing of what he claimed the same people would say he evaluated the situation and is being smart. Like I said, he can do no wrong.

 

[nageov3t]

Originally posted by: Genx87
This thread delivers.

Obama is the man for change vote for him. Now that he cant deliver nor is willing to make that change he is a man of pragmatism so we should vote for him.

Can do no wrong!

the urgency of later?
the audacity of "we'll see"?

 

[seemingly random]

Originally posted by: Genx87
This thread delivers.

Obama is the man for change vote for him. Now that he cant deliver nor is willing to make that change he is a man of pragmatism so we should vote for him.

Can do no wrong!

I've never thought that he will clean up the mess. After listening to him speak in several different settings, I think he'll get us on the right track - something a republican is incapable of. The republican agenda is to take and oppress. If obama starts this crap, I'll be looking for another change.

 

[Xavier434]

Originally posted by: Genx87

Originally posted by: Xavier434
He never said he cannot deliver the goals he has set forth. All that he is trying to do here is the same thing that both him and McCain have been trying to do over the past few months. That is, convince the people that this shit takes time and that's the bottom line. Where is the problem?

Nothing, I was making an amusing observation about certain members attitude. I'd bet if he came back and said he will accomplish nothing of what he claimed the same people would say he evaluated the situation and is being smart. Like I said, he can do no wrong.

I believe that what many people forget is that Obama is actually able to successfully provide strong change in this country right away. People don't like to believe it because they don't want to believe in him and the change I am referring to cannot be proven through numbers. That is, confidence in government, confidence in this country, and confidence that there are simply brighter days ahead.

It sounds wishy washy, but the kind of dramatic impact that such a thing can have on many people is outstanding and a great thing for this country. When people are feelings like they are battered and torn and lack confidence about the future they are usually far more stressed out and tend to make much less responsible decisions. They do not work as hard because their motivation is completely shot and the quality of their work is usually a lot lower. Keep in mind that I am not just referring to their performance while on the job either. I am talking about working towards the progress of their lives in general whether it be their careers, their children, their families, friends, wives, husbands, strangers, etc. Everyone is impacted. This is especially true when it comes to the types of people who are far less informed than most of us here. These people also constitute the majority. Many of these people are Obama supporters and him getting elected has the potential to invoke this kind of dramatic change and it will be swift.

From there, it all comes down to his follow through and delivery which everyone should be hopeful about because success right now is very necessary. We just need to accept that it will also be slow and Obama is aware that hopes, dreams, and motivation is a fragile thing and it is temporary without maintenance and reinforcement. That is why he has been working hard to inform the people that the real change to the real problems will not be swift. What needs to be swift is our support and desire to make those changes start happening. If Obama fails to deliver over time then he will lose support. Such a thing is inevitable as a result of failure. He most certainly is a man that can do things wrong. Unlike McCain though, he will be given the chance to prove himself.