Yang the universal income guy

[Lezunto]

Bernie has always been out to lunch.

In 2016. he absolutely knew most of his supporters wanted to destroy the Democratic Party and he did NOTHING to dissuade them.

He sat back quietly and reveled in all the nasty insults his backers hurled Hillary's way. All one had to look was match these abusive comments and cracks with previous denunciations of Hillary and the Dems that seeped out of the Trump camp.

And when one did, OMG, they matched. Imagine that!

Because of Bernie's inaction, this country missed a great chance to elect a woman POTUS. As a Black man who has benefited from Civil Rights and the actions of the Dem Party, I could care less what Bernie Bros think.

I will never forgive Bernie or many of his idiot supporters who, just as I predicted, turned traitor and voted for Trump. Just as they are turning traitor today and ambushing President Biden.

What amazes me are the turkeys who still believe in Bernie's "Democratic Socialism." And the noxious and erroneous claims that FDR was a Socialist. Only FDR's enemies called him a Socialist.

And Bernie initially wanted a $6 trillion dollar infrastructure bill? What planet is this clown on? He was never gonna get that.

He's not even getting $3.5 trillion either. He needs to shut up, retire and drink his prune juice.

 

[K1052]

Yang the doesn't get any votes guy.

 

[woolfe9998]

To those who think I am making up that 10% of Bernie Sanders supporters voted for Trump, here ya go:

Here's How Many Bernie Sanders Supporters Ultimately Voted For Trump

Yes, Bernie Sanders supporters who voted for President Trump could have cost Hillary Clinton the election. But then, about the same share of Republican primary voters defected to Clinton.

www.npr.org

It was 12% so you undersold your point.

But it dropped to 7% in 2020. More than likely, some of the 12% were Sanders people moving from one "anti-establishment" candidate to another, but were unaware of just how bad Trump would be in office.

Sanders–Trump voters - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

I also have to wonder about how many of those Sanders-Trump voters were actually republicans registered as dems. Both parties have these people who stay in one party while favoring the other because they want to influence the other party's primary. My wife is one such person, still registered as a republican but has voted straight ticket dem for 25 years. Republicans tended to favor Sanders in our primary because they thought he'd be easier for Trump to beat.

 

[Lezunto]

woolfe,

It was estimated that 14% of Bernie Bots were so butthurt their man didn't win that they voted for Trump. The anecdotal evidence was overwhelming.

Many were younger or first time voters who simply did not understand that sometimes you try as hard as you can to help a candidate win, but you still lose. I was only 16 when Hubert H. Humphrey lost a close election to Richard Nixon.

I was crushed. But one thing it did do was stop me from thinking of later joining the U.S. Marines to fight in South Vietnam. I was patriotic and felt it was my duty to don a uniform. I just didn't trust Nixon. And thus began a lifetime of opposition to Republicans.

And I was right about Nixon.

 

[dank69]

Bernie has always been out to lunch.

In 2016. he absolutely knew most of his supporters wanted to destroy the Democratic Party and he did NOTHING to dissuade them.

He sat back quietly and reveled in all the nasty insults his backers hurled Hillary's way. All one had to look was match these abusive comments and cracks with previous denunciations of Hillary and the Dems that seeped out of the Trump camp.

And when one did, OMG, they matched. Imagine that!

Because of Bernie's inaction, this country missed a great chance to elect a woman POTUS. As a Black man who has benefited from Civil Rights and the actions of the Dem Party, I could care less what Bernie Bros think.

I will never forgive Bernie or many of his idiot supporters who, just as I predicted, turned traitor and voted for Trump. Just as they are turning traitor today and ambushing President Biden.

What amazes me are the turkeys who still believe in Bernie's "Democratic Socialism." And the noxious and erroneous claims that FDR was a Socialist. Only FDR's enemies called him a Socialist.

And Bernie initially wanted a $6 trillion dollar infrastructure bill? What planet is this clown on? He was never gonna get that.

He's not even getting $3.5 trillion either. He needs to shut up, retire and drink his prune juice.

You have a lot to learn still.

 

[nakedfrog]

Their issue is you saying Bernie set out to destroy the Democratic party, that he was out for himself and thinks he's been deemed the king of liberals or whatever you were saying, or that he actually opposes the price tag of the Biden plan. He's just trying to compromise to get it through instead of it getting completely stalled.

Exactly.

I will grant you that "destroy" isn't the right word. But Bernie clearly set out to effectively co-opt the Democratic party during the 2016 presidential campaign (in very much the same way that Trump successfully co-opted the Republican party), and the damage he and his followers did to the Democratic party (especially after Clinton won the nomination) contributed to Trump's election. That is something that I will never forgive.

The thing is that the Democratic party sucks, just not anywhere nearly as hard as the GQP. You can say he was trying to co-opt it and/or destroy it, from where I'm sitting, he was trying to save it from itself, because it sucks.

Edit: And just to clarify, I don't think there's a force on earth that could have gotten me to vote for the shitbag that just got tossed in the dumpster.

 

[MrSquished]

This guy still blaming progressives when every Dem, but two senators, would have already voted yes on the 3.5 trillion dollar bill.

At this point it's just ludicrous. Denial of reality to fit his own narrative.

 

[woolfe9998]

This guy still blaming progressives when every Dem, but two senators, would have already voted yes on the 3.5 trillion dollar bill.

At this point it's just ludicrous. Denial of reality to fit his own narrative.

Manchin and Sinema are the primary villains in all this. By far.

But those dems in the House need to vote for whatever spending bill comes out of the Senate. If everything in it is good for the country, you don't choose to vote no out of spite. Some good is always better than no good at all.

 

[woolfe9998]

woolfe,

It was estimated that 14% of Bernie Bots were so butthurt their man didn't win that they voted for Trump. The anecdotal evidence was overwhelming.

Many were younger or first time voters who simply did not understand that sometimes you try as hard as you can to help a candidate win, but you still lose. I was only 16 when Hubert H. Humphrey lost a close election to Richard Nixon.

I was crushed. But one thing it did do was stop me from thinking of later joining the U.S. Marines to fight in South Vietnam. I was patriotic and felt it was my duty to don a uniform. I just didn't trust Nixon. And thus began a lifetime of opposition to Republicans.

And I was right about Nixon.

You should review the wiki link I supplied, especially the analysis section and its sources. It supports my point that Sander->voters were ideologically conservative, not to mention older and whiter than dems on the whole. The vast majority of Sander-->Trump voters didn't even vote for Obama.

In an interview with Vox, Schaffner highlighted the fact that Sanders-Trump voters were much less likely to identify as Democrats than Sanders voters who voted for Clinton or a third-party candidate.[2] According to Schaffner, about half of the voting bloc identified themselves as Republicans or independents.[4] Data from the VOTER survey showed that only 35% of Sanders-Trump voters voted for Democratic incumbent Barack Obama in the 2012 election; in contrast, 95% of Sanders-Clinton voters voted for Obama in 2012.[1]

Compared to typical Democratic Party voters, Sanders-Trump voters were much more conservative on racial and social issues. Over 40% of Sanders-Trump voters disagreed that white people have advantages, compared to less than 10% of Sanders voters who voted for Clinton.[2] Compared to the average Sanders voter, Sanders-Trump voters tend to be white and older. The CCES survey showed that only between 17% and 18% of Sanders-Trump voters identified themselves as ideologically liberal, with the rest either identifying as moderate or conservative.

 

[MrSquished]

Manchin and Sinema are the primary villains in all this. By far.

But those dems in the House need to vote for whatever spending bill comes out of the Senate. If everything in it is good for the country, you don't choose to vote no out of spite. Some good is always better than no good at all.

If Manchim and Sinema were onboard, both the infrastructure bill and the reconciliation bill would have passed already. At 3.5 trillion dollars.

 

[woolfe9998]

If Manchim and Sinema were onboard, both the infrastructure bill and the reconciliation bill would have passed already. At 3.5 trillion dollars.

I already said they are primarily at fault. Now you can reply to the second paragraph of my post since what is above only replies to the first paragraph, and is in agreement with what I said.

 

[MrSquished]

I already said they are primarily at fault. Now you can reply to the second paragraph of my post since what is above only replies to the first paragraph, and is in agreement with what I said.

I've usually been in the just roll over and go with what you got camp. The progressives always blink. Like they did with Obamacare.

But I'm starting to doubt the strategy of always passing watered down shit and always being the ones to blink. I mean at some point you can't just roll over every time. You literally have 98% Dems ready to pass two bills and at some point you gotta take a stand.

I'm 50/50 on this.

 

[woolfe9998]

I've usually been in the just roll over and go with what you got camp. The progressives always blink. Like they did with Obamacare.

But I'm starting to doubt the strategy of always passing watered down shit and always being the ones to blink. I mean at some point you can't just roll over every time. You literally have 98% Dems ready to pass two bills and at some point you gotta take a stand.

I'm 50/50 on this.

If all they can get past Sinema and Manchin is $1.5T, and that $1.5T contains things which are all good for the American people, please explain the logic of voting no. This isn't some reform bill where a "watered down version" might not be much better than nothing at all. This is a spending bill which contains at or near 100% things which are good for the country. Voting "no" on a piece of legislation which is good for the country is a bad faith break with the people who voted you into office.

And it's worse than that. If we come out of this with a big fat zero, they are guaranteeing a republican avalanche next year and a likely Trump victory in 2024, ending democracy in this country.

In which case, they deserve to be buried in the same political grave as Manchin and Sinema.

 

[Thump553]

If we ever abolish the electoral college system, the more third parties the better. The electoral college is the ONLY reason for the existence of either the Democratic Party or the GOP. Frankly it has been a plague on system since the beginning. But the electoral college is essentially the only reason the GOP still exists so they will fight any constitutional amendment full force.

Under the present system, the only thing a Yang party will do is help Trump in 2024. Good intentions but horrible idea in practice.

 

[MrSquished]

If all they can get past Sinema and Manchin is $1.5T, and that $1.5T contains things which are all good for the American people, please explain the logic of voting no. This isn't some reform bill where a "watered down version" might not be much better than nothing at all. This is a spending bill which contains at or near 100% things which are good for the country. Voting "no" on a piece of legislation which is good for the country is a bad faith break with the people who voted you into office.

And it's worse than that. If we come out of this with a big fat zero, they are guaranteeing a republican avalanche next year and a likely Trump victory in 2024, ending democracy in this country.

In which case, they deserve to be buried in the same political grave as Manchin and Sinema.

It's never good to always be the side that blinks. After this the majority of the Democratic party will always have to fold to a couple hostage takers. Again. Let them blink instead.
Do you ever think it's appropriate to take a stand after constantly being the ones who fold?

What's amazing is you have virtually an entire party onboard with two major pieces of legislation, and if the vast majority don't cow down to 2 people, it's the 98% who are out of touch. Amazing.

 

[woolfe9998]

It's never good to always be the side that blinks. After this the majority of the Democratic party will always have to fold to a couple hostage takers. Again. Let them blink instead.
Do you ever think it's appropriate to take a stand after constantly being the ones who fold?

What's amazing is you have virtually an entire party onboard with two major pieces of legislation, and if the vast majority don't cow down to 2 people, it's the 98% who are out of touch. Amazing.

No, not 98%. A small number of progressives in the House. The rest I guarantee will vote for whatever comes out of the Senate.

We don't have time anymore to debate the long term consequences of what you call "blinking." There is no long term. Democracy is at risk. Right now. We have to defeat the GOP. When you are opposing a fascist party, you have to be 100% unified in doing whatever is best to defeat them. And in the regard, passing a smaller spending bill is better than passing no bill at all and in the process, guaranteeing that Biden's presidency will be a failure.

 

[Brainonska511]

If we ever abolish the electoral college system, the more third parties the better. The electoral college is the ONLY reason for the existence of either the Democratic Party or the GOP. Frankly it has been a plague on system since the beginning. But the electoral college is essentially the only reason the GOP still exists so they will fight any constitutional amendment full force.

Under the present system, the only thing a Yang party will do is help Trump in 2024. Good intentions but horrible idea in practice.

If the electoral college is the only reason we have two dominant parties, why are parties relevant in other elections that are not governed by the electoral college?

Any first past the post voting system is going to devolve into two parties. There isn't necessarily anything inherently better about multiple parties or just two parties - the biggest difference really just comes down to when collations for government are formed: after the election or during the primary process.

 

[MrSquished]

No, not 98%. A small number of progressives in the House. The rest I guarantee will vote for whatever comes out of the Senate.

We don't have time anymore to debate the long term consequences of what you call "blinking." There is no long term. Democracy is at risk. Right now. We have to defeat the GOP. When you are opposing a fascist party, you have to be 100% unified in doing whatever is best to defeat them. And in the regard, passing a smaller spending bill is better than passing no bill at all and in the process, guaranteeing that Biden's presidency will be a failure.

First of all you are not understanding the 98% figure. 98% of Dems would vote for the 3.5 trillion dollar package tomorrow. Just 2 Senators are holdouts. So yes, essentially the vast majority of Dems are being held hostage by two people.

And no, the Progressives in the House are not a 'small' number, the Progressive caucus is 95 members out of just over 200 Dems. That's nearly half. So no, not small at all. In fact it's probably the largest caucus among the Dems and represents the will of a hell of a lot more of Democratic constituents than the two holdouts.

 

[woolfe9998]

First of all you are not understanding the 98% figure. 98% of Dems would vote for the 3.5 trillion dollar package tomorrow. Just 2 Senators are holdouts. So yes, essentially the vast majority of Dems are being held hostage by two people.

And no, the Progressives in the House are not a 'small' number, the Progressive caucus is 95 members out of just over 200 Dems. That's nearly half. So no, not small at all.

No, I understand the 98% as you're using that number. But 98% of dems aren't going to vote against a scaled down version of the infrastructure bill. It's actually about 12 who will, AFAIK. Just enough to defeat the bill.

So far as Manchin and Sinema are concerned, you're wasting your time trying to convince me of something I was already convinced of. See the following sentence in post #33 above:

Manchin and Sinema are the primary villains in all this. By far.

Was there something wrong with my grammar or diction? Did I stutter?

 

[MrSquished]

No, I understand the 98% as you're using that number. But 98% of dems aren't going to vote against a scaled down version of the infrastructure bill. It's actually about 12 who will, AFAIK. Just enough to defeat the bill.

So far as Manchin and Sinema are concerned, you're wasting your time trying to convince me of something I was already convinced of. See the following sentence in post #33 above:



Was there something wrong with my grammar or diction? Did I stutter?

I just told you the Progressive caucus is 95 members, they are all against a watered down bill. I heard the chair of the progressive caucus on NPR the other day, Pramila Jayapal , and Katie Porter is the deputy chair, they are all united in this. So as of two days ago, they are all united. Why do you keep saying it's a small number against cowing down to two corrupt moderates? It's nearly half the entire Democratic caucus in the House.

You are going with the narrative of the DINO's. It's just a few insane progressives against this or whatever. No, it's not.

 

[woolfe9998]

I just told you the Progressive caucus is 95 members, they are all against a watered down bill. I heard the chair of the progressive caucus on NPR the other day, Pramila Jayapal , and Katie Porter is the deputy chair, they are all united in this. Why do you keep saying it's a small number against cowing down to two corrupt moderates? It's nearly half the entire Democratic caucus in the House.

You are going with the narrative of the DINO's. It's just a few insane progressives against this or whatever. No, it's not.

Doesn't matter as the higher number only makes this worse.

I don't give a fuck about the "narrative of the DINO's." Nor about progressives "seeming tough." Nor about Sinema's pathetic self-image of being a "maverick" who "bucks her party." I don't care about siding with one faction of democrats. What I care about is doing good for the country and defeating a fascist political party.

Let's just narrow this down to one dispositive question. If the democrats in the Senate have to compromise with those two assholes, what public good will be served by having no legislation at all? Please answer the question directly.

 

[MrSquished]

Doesn't matter as the higher number only makes this worse.

I don't give a fuck about the "narrative of the DINO's." Nor about progressives "seeming tough." Nor about Sinema's pathetic self-image of being a "maverick" who "bucks her party." I don't care about siding with one faction of democrats. What I care about is doing good for the country and defeating a fascist political party.

Let's just narrow this down to one dispositive question. If the democrats in the Senate have to compromise with those two assholes, what public good will be served by having no legislation at all? Please answer the question directly.

The higher number does not make it worse, at all. It makes it far better. The higher number means they are representing a large part of the Democratic base. It's worse if it's just a few dipshits representing a small minority of people holding things up rather than a group that reps a serious chunk of the will of constituents. There is no positive for no legislation passing, but there would be a positive outcome if the other side blinks first and caves, instead of yet again the progressives getting shafted. If they didn't blink during Obamacare, we'd have had a public option.

 

[woolfe9998]

The higher number does not make it worse, at all. The higher number means they are representing a large part of the Democratic base. It's worse if it's just a few dipshits holding things up rather than a serious chunk of the will of constituents. There is no positive for no legislation passing, but there would be a positive outcome if the other side blinks first and caves, instead of yet again the progressives getting shafted. If they didn't blink during Obamacare, we'd have had a public option.

The "other side" is Manchin and Sinema. They either blink or they do not, but either way, that will happen before, not after, the House votes on the legislation. So if the progressives are just claiming they'll vote against it in order to make them blink, but they'll actually vote for it, that's fine. But if Manchin and Sinema don't blink and we get a scaled down bill, there is no upside whatsoever to the progressives voting against it. Period.

 

[Lezunto]

Woolfe:

Wikipedia is poison to me. I taught essay writing in business colleges for five years. After several warnings, I would give an "F" to any student who dared to use Wikipedia as a source.

Because there are several legitimate academic sources that employ real researchers who do their own work. And I listed them on the blackboard in every class.

As a teacher, laziness appalls me.

Everyone else:

Bernie Bots were all tough on FB and other social media in 2016 and 2020. But when people on the Left needed them to vote with Dems, they often defect. Just as they are destroying Biden's nascent administration right now.

I've always maintained that Progressives cannot be trusted. They are just overgrown kids who think the world should be handed to them. Absent of any real achievements, I beg to differ.

They are not going to get their way with a $3.5 trillion dollar bill. And their stubbornness is going to cost the Democratic Party big time. But I suspect that is what many of them want.

The thing about Progressives is their rage. They are quick to lash out, curse and condemn those who disagree with them. Their thin skin is comical because it gets them nowhere and identifies them as spoiled children.

We Black people have little to learn from Progressives since so many of you detest us. (Black people need to be polite to police - Bernie)

 

[MrSquished]

Woolfe,

Wikipedia is poison to me. I taught essay writing in business colleges for five years. After several warnings, I would give an "F" to any student who dared to use Wikipedia as a source.

Because there are several legitimate academic sources that employ researchers who do their own work. And I listed them on the blackboard in every class.

As a teacher, laziness appalls me.

Bernie Bots were all tough on FB and other social media. But when people on the left needed them, they defected. Just as they are destroying Biden's nascent administration right now.

I've always maintained that Progressives cannot be trusted. They are just overgrown kids who think the world should be handed to them,

Forget about the Bernie Bros that voted for Trump, that's a small minority of progressives overall. Not all progressives were Bernie Bros either, you can't conflate the two. But yet you try to paint all progressives with the brush with how a small minority acted.

Also what you are doing is misrepresenting the situation on the ground abut this bill and get called out on it and keep on with your bullshit narrative. The reality is two Democratic senators are acting like corrupt adults and holding back a bill that every other Dem in the House, that's 220 of them, and every other Dem Senator, that's 48, would vote yes on right now, along with the blessing of the Biden Admin and Kamala's tie-breaking vote, but because you have a hardon for progressives, you spew misinformation.

Get corrected, ignore reality and double down on your bullshit narrative. Sounds like a little kid who wants to live in pretend world. Who is the overgrown child now?