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velillen said:
Thing is, it was a complete failure like many people assumed it would be. It still did technically meet the FBI's standards with 12.75 (or 12.5..i cant remember) of penetration. I know many people didnt think it would be able to even do that. It does have some what i consider MAJOR issues in the fact it had feeding issues. But actual perforance wise i didnt do half bad. Not what they advertise but still an acceptable level.
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But what benefit is it actually giving you? The "petals" are making an ugly but fairly superficial wound. Like shooting someone with birdshot, they may look nasty but they aren't likely to be hurt that bad.

That's not even mention how much their marketing and image is going to hurt you (even if it doesn't match reality). I really feel for the first person who has to go on trial after using this stuff in a self defense shooting.
 
I dunno...if you go on trial for a clear cut case of self defense you have more to worry about than what type of ammo you use.
 
cmdrdredd said:
I dunno...if you go on trial for a clear cut case of self defense you have more to worry about than what type of ammo you use.
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No one ever believes that they will be in anything other than a clear-cut self defense case, but somehow a lot of people still end up in court...
 
cmdrdredd said:
Yeah I know. Just saying, your ammo will be the last thing on your mind at that point.
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Until the prosecutor holds up a blown-up picture of this evil, spiked, nasty-looking ammo with it's RIP logo, it's premium price, and uses it to paint you as some paranoid butcher who pays a premium to kill more gruesomely than necessary. Just look at the controversy over black talons (despite the fact that the Ranger-T is almost identical, yet catches no similar flack).

It's in the Miranda Warning. "Anything you say can and will be used against you in a court of law." Same goes for anything you use. If there's even the slightest chance of my going to court for a potential felony, every little detail under my control will be in my favor.

Just because it's the last thing on your mind doesn't mean it can't bite your nuts off.
 
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Black talon...weren't those reboxed as Ranger T without the black coating?

This topic comes up from time to time on firearms forums. This is one of the better responses I have read. It may depend on your state, county, or local laws and different precedents set by previous cases as to whether or not they use it against you. In some states JHP ammo is not legal for you to have to begin with. I personally stick with that is shown to be acceptable by scientific testing and in use by law enforcement. I dont follow marketing. Like that zombie ammo out there etc.

In one of the training sessions I have attended,,,They brought this same subject up for a discussion topic.One of the instructors (a lawyer) said this is a common tactic in a civil suit,,,The plaintiff's attorney will often try to paint you as a villain,,,Based solely on your choice of ammunition.If you use hollow-point he paints you as a rabid killer,,,If you use ball ammo he paints you as a para-military whack-job.One man suggested we call our local police and ask what they use,,,And if possible to use the same brand and design.Personally I don't think you can prepare ahead against this strategy,,,You will be damned whether you use HP or FMJ ammunition.It's up to your attorney to defend against this tactic.The best advice I can relate on this is what I received from the class,,,Only use commercially available self-defense ammunition,,,Don't use your own (or anyone else's) handloads.
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Looks like it, and wasn't it discontinued a long time ago?

talonpic1ia0.jpg
 
shortylickens said:
Am surprised anybody has black talons left. Those were outlawed and discontinued a LONG time ago.
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Talon

Uhh, it was never outlawed at all.

There were some stupid public outcry over a shooting that occurred where the shooter used this ammo. There was a civil suit against Winchester over it, but those that filed the suit lost in court.

Since there was so much stupid going on in the public with the name, they basically just rebranded it as SXT. Jokingly referred to as "Same eXact Thing" as it is a JHP round with lubalox coating. You can buy it now. I have some I bought not too long ago.

As for the discussion of the R.I.P. ammo and how it would used in court, all someone has to state is that it's a standard JHP round with a marketing gimmick. No different than someone deciding to add a spoiler to their car to make it look cooler. A round of ammo shot is at person is designed to inflict damage on that person. That argument won't fail as all the person says that the ammo were purchased as a product test, like a wide variety of personalized styling enhancements for sport shooting. That it is only a marketing gimmick and nothing more.

As far as I know, no one has been convicted specifically over the choice of ammo used where that ammo was not bared. For example, don't use hollow points in New Jersey. All hollow points are illegal there. Actually, any round specifically designed to fragment or deform to cause additional damage is barred there.
 
cmdrdredd said:
Black talon...weren't those reboxed as Ranger T without the black coating?

This topic comes up from time to time on firearms forums. This is one of the better responses I have read. It may depend on your state, county, or local laws and different precedents set by previous cases as to whether or not they use it against you. In some states JHP ammo is not legal for you to have to begin with. I personally stick with that is shown to be acceptable by scientific testing and in use by law enforcement. I dont follow marketing. Like that zombie ammo out there etc.
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Yeah, my bad. Knew it ended in a "T". 😛
 
cmdrdredd said:
Black talon...weren't those reboxed as Ranger T without the black coating?

This topic comes up from time to time on firearms forums. This is one of the better responses I have read. It may depend on your state, county, or local laws and different precedents set by previous cases as to whether or not they use it against you. In some states JHP ammo is not legal for you to have to begin with. I personally stick with that is shown to be acceptable by scientific testing and in use by law enforcement. I dont follow marketing. Like that zombie ammo out there etc.
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I own zombie ammo....just in case 😀

I carry Gold Dot +P. That's all. Until I can get my hands on some HST and take it to the range, its all I will ever carry.
 
HumblePie said:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Talon

Uhh, it was never outlawed at all.

There were some stupid public outcry over a shooting that occurred where the shooter used this ammo. There was a civil suit against Winchester over it, but those that filed the suit lost in court.

Since there was so much stupid going on in the public with the name, they basically just rebranded it as SXT. Jokingly referred to as "Same eXact Thing" as it is a JHP round with lubalox coating. You can buy it now. I have some I bought not too long ago.

As for the discussion of the R.I.P. ammo and how it would used in court, all someone has to state is that it's a standard JHP round with a marketing gimmick. No different than someone deciding to add a spoiler to their car to make it look cooler. A round of ammo shot is at person is designed to inflict damage on that person. That argument won't fail as all the person says that the ammo were purchased as a product test, like a wide variety of personalized styling enhancements for sport shooting. That it is only a marketing gimmick and nothing more.

As far as I know, no one has been convicted specifically over the choice of ammo used where that ammo was not bared. For example, don't use hollow points in New Jersey. All hollow points are illegal there. Actually, any round specifically designed to fragment or deform to cause additional damage is barred there.
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No, but it could emotionally sway jurors; and if there's a controversy of some nature that emotional swaying could make a difference.

I'm just saying that if I ever go to court for anything, I'm going to go to sleep early, wake up early and give myself a 45 minute wet-shave just to give me that much more of an edge. If I'm going to court for a defensive shooting, I don't want my ammo selection to even come up as a factor. The objective is to be so clean and so smooth that they can't get a grip, even a grip easily fended off.
 
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irishScott said:
No, but it could emotionally sway jurors; and if there's a controversy of some nature that emotional swaying could make a difference.

I'm just saying that if I ever go to court for anything, I'm going to go to sleep early, wake up early and give myself a 45 minute wet-shave just to give me that much more of an edge. If I'm going to court for a defensive shooting, I don't want my ammo selection to even come up as a factor. The objective is to be so clean and so smooth that they can't get a grip, even a grip easily fended off.
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The lawyer who spoke at my CPL training was a trial lawyer who only handled gun cases. He knew his shit. He said that in every case, prosecutors would hold up the gun or show pictures of the gun making it out to be as evil as possible. He recommended an old 12 gauge over/under for the perfect home defense weapon. The jury would think of it as something their grandpa used.

One guy in this thread posted a Mack 10 clone with skulls on it that he had just bought. I would never want to be sitting in a courtroom being judged and have the prosecutor show a blown up pic of that. Same thing for RIP ammo. All the jury needs to do is dislike you a little bit, then the whole case changes.

If you aren't willing to think about these things ahead of time, then you probably should find a different hobby.
 
phucheneh said:
P238 and P938 are super fucking sexy little guns, but there's no way I'd drop that kinda cash without shooting one. It looks like the .380 can be had for around 500 bucks, but you can't touch the 9mm for less than 600. That's a lot of money for a tiny gun. Maybe it's a 'bargain' when you compare it to the other widely known tiny 1911 designs (e.g. Kimber), but I just don't think it would shoot very good. I would place a pretty heavy wager on the P290 being a lot more comfortable...granted I'm just speculating based on looks and experience with big 1911's and the P250s. I think the 250 is basically the same grip as the 290, albeit fatter. Damn the 250 was comfortable.

The P*38 is just such a plain, straight grip. Gotta be a bitch to hold onto that.

edit: also, I have to giggle at you guys sometimes. 'Blah blah blah, random unpopular Austrian and German guns, blah blah Bersa, blah blah...' Expected response: crickets. '...what about Sig?'

'OH, SIG, LET ME TELL YOU SOME STUFF ABOUT SIG. AAAAHHHH SIG *air hump*'

=D
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It shoots quite better than the LCP. And the 7 round extended mag gives a nice grip.
Also theres a fuckload of replacement grip handles so you can get any kind of grip you want.
And actually the included grips are pretty damn good.


Go rent one if you can.
 
rudeguy said:
I own zombie ammo....just in case 😀

I carry Gold Dot +P. That's all. Until I can get my hands on some HST and take it to the range, its all I will ever carry.
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What I like about gold dots is that you can get speer lawman fmj that gives nearly the same performance characteristics for range practice. I have quite a few boxes of that in .40sw which I found a decent deal on years back.
 
grrr.....I hate waiting!

I'm just waiting for the hot chick in finance to bring me the check so I can go buy shiny things. Her office is right below me! But she's not bringing me my check!!!
 
cmdrdredd said:
What I like about gold dots is that you can get speer lawman fmj that gives nearly the same performance characteristics for range practice. I have quite a few boxes of that in .40sw which I found a decent deal on years back.
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I've put enough down range that I know what to expect. I'll sneak a couple mags through every once in a while at the range, otherwise I just shoot range ammo. My range doesn't allow +P loads, so I have to be sneaky :sneaky:
 
Merad said:
Like shooting someone with birdshot, they may look nasty but they aren't likely to be hurt that bad.

.
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you want to test that out :biggrin:

I keep bird and trap shot in my mossy for home defense, don't want to blow through a wall........
 
rudeguy said:
I've put enough down range that I know what to expect. I'll sneak a couple mags through every once in a while at the range, otherwise I just shoot range ammo. My range doesn't allow +P loads, so I have to be sneaky :sneaky:
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A few ranges here don't care because they have the proper backstop for jhp and +p not to matter. A few others check and won't let you shoot them.
 
cmdrdredd said:
A few ranges here don't care because they have the proper backstop for jhp and +p not to matter. A few others check and won't let you shoot them.
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What? 😵 I don't think I'd shoot at a range that believes its backstop isn't capable of handling +P rounds.
 
Merad said:
What? 😵 I don't think I'd shoot at a range that believes its backstop isn't capable of handling +P rounds.
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Believe the problem is most likely that their walls can't handle +P rounds. You have to remember, they have to make the rules based off the lowest common denominator.
 
I haven't really seen a range that doesn't allow +P rounds but I haven't really looked. I can see the range being concerned about it cratering the backstop causing fragments to come back at you. It really depends on what the backstop is made out of. You also have to remember that those places are also lawsuit magnets and I can see why a range wouldn't want to risk the drama if someone got hit with fragments. Having been hit with a ricocheting fragment, while it wasn't enough to break skin it freaked me out.
 
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