YAGT: OMG I love guns

[alkemyst]

So, why do people say .22 guns arent good for self defense? Arent they pretty much always going to be almost as deadly/damaging to an assailant?

Just thinking about this before I purchase my first firearm. I want a 9mm, because .22s seem kinda puny, but the price of .22 is really alluring. 🙁 I fired a Ruger SR22 at the range using cheapy CCI ammo and it sounded like nothing. Maybe it was because the other gun I was using was a Glock 22. 😱

Most consider the .38 special the bare minimum for self defense. Obviously any gun is better than no gun.

A .22 can be stopped by many common things, also where a more powerful caliber may be albe to shoot through the couch your assailant is behind, the .22 if it does make it through may not have any power to harm much.

Any shot to a vital organ will usually be lethal/stopping with any caliber, but a crook in mid-winter in any of the states that get below zero will probably have enough clothing on to majorly slow a .22 down. If they are in a bullet proof vest that .22 doesn't even have the kinetic energy to stun.

Get hit with a .44 magnum even wearing a vest and you are going to be knocked the fuck out a bit. Usually long enough for the defender to get a better shot.

 

[alkemyst]

Thats how i was always taught..2 to the chest 1 to the head. Though more likely in a self defense with adrenaline going itll just be shot for center mass on all shots.


As for .22 theres always reports of people using it. It will stop someone. But at the same time if i remember correctly it can be stopped by heavier clothing like a thick denim. That and reliability in my mind. With mini mags i might get 1 FTF in ~50 rounds (usually just doesnt fire, reload it in next mag and it fires) and the last thing i would want at home is for that 1 to be the one i needed.

Id honestly get a 9mm for home defense if i were you. Then get a fun plinking 22. Luckily a basic 22 pistol is pretty cheap (275-350 range). Just about everyone i know with multiple guns has a 22 that always come to the range with them. But very few would use it in home defense

The 2 to the chest, 1 to the head is taught to some police/leo. They are also usually much much closer to the perp when shit goes south. Your best bet in a home defense situation is to stick with center-mass.

 

[glenn1]

You don't aim for the head in self defense. You aim for center of mass. If you're aiming anywhere else, you're doing it wrong.

As I've said previously, I don't conceal carry so self defense is basically a non-issue for me. I also do not fetishize large calibers. All this talk about shooting people through couches is just so much action hero bullshit. If you cannot successfully defend yourself with a .22 you got much bigger problems than your weapon's caliber.

 

[RampantAndroid]

...unless you're really, really, really, really good. I doubt anyone on here is trained to that level, but you never know. I prefer the classic FBI drill, 2 to the chest, evaluate, 1 to the head if necessarry.

FBI drill, yes. But I don't care HOW good you are, the head is a small target and if you miss, that's a stray bullet. You don't aim there to start.

Situationally headshots could make sense if all you have is a .22. More so if it's a long gun. It's definitely something that would need a lot of training before it could be counted on, because it involves an on-the-spot decision of what to target.

I still say center of mass. It's a larger target.

As I've said previously, I don't conceal carry so self defense is basically a non-issue for me. I also do not fetishize large calibers. All this talk about shooting people through couches is just so much action hero bullshit. If you cannot successfully defend yourself with a .22 you got much bigger problems than your weapon's caliber.

I completely disagree. You do not EVER aim for the head to boot. That's asking for a stray round to go through a few walls. You aim for center of mass. And .22 is never a defense round. This isn't about large calibers, this is about calibers that can have JHP and JHC rounds that will do large amounts of damage. .22 is not one of those rounds.

 

[QuantumPion]

Any shot to a vital organ will usually be lethal/stopping with any caliber, but a crook in mid-winter in any of the states that get below zero will probably have enough clothing on to majorly slow a .22 down. If they are in a bullet proof vest that .22 doesn't even have the kinetic energy to stun.

Bullshit, no amount of clothing will slow down even a .22.

What heavy clothing can do is prevent hollow points from expanding.

The reason why .22's aren't very good for self defense is because they don't penetrate or expand very much. While getting shot in the liver is likely to be fatal eventually, it's going to take a while to bleed out. You have to get a direct hit to the heart, brain, or spinal cord in order to immediately incapacitate, and the probability of a bone stopping the bullet is greater.

That being said, a .22 is certainly better than nothing. And someone with a .22 and 10,000 rounds of practice would almost certainly be more lethal than someone with a .45 and zero rounds of practice.

 

[QuantumPion]

And .22 is never a defense round. This isn't about large calibers, this is about calibers that can have JHP and JHC rounds that will do large amounts of damage. .22 is not one of those rounds.

I think his point was if you can't hit your target with a .22, upgrading to a .45 isn't going to help matters any 🙂

 

[RampantAndroid]

I think his point was if you can't hit your target with a .22, upgrading to a .45 isn't going to help matters any 🙂

Except he said "if you cannot defend yourself with a 22" which is something I take issue with. You shouldn't be defending yourself with a 22 to begin with. Body shots won't do much damage, and you don't aim for the head.

 

[glenn1]

FBI drill, yes. But I don't care HOW good you are, the head is a small target and if you miss, that's a stray bullet. You don't aim there to start.



I still say center of mass. It's a larger target.



I completely disagree. You do not EVER aim for the head to boot. That's asking for a stray round to go through a few walls. You aim for center of mass. And .22 is never a defense round. This isn't about large calibers, this is about calibers that can have JHP and JHC rounds that will do large amounts of damage. .22 is not one of those rounds.

I'll make it real simple; if you have a firearm, you are equipped for self defense no matter what the cali is. If you have ever seen or treated a gunshot trauma you know how ridiculouss talk about any caliber being inadequate for self defense is. If nothing else, the sheer volume of deaths from .22 weapons should show that's more than deadly enough.

 

[basslover1]

Except he said "if you cannot defend yourself with a 22" which is something I take issue with. You shouldn't be defending yourself with a 22 to begin with. Body shots won't do much damage, and you don't aim for the head.

So you'll volunteer for me shooting you with my .22 at 7 yards?

If someone breaks into my house, the first thing I'm going for after dialing 911 is my M&P 15-22, and I can guarantee you, whoever just broke in isn't walking out.

 

[alkemyst]

I'll make it real simple; if you have a firearm, you are equipped for self defense no matter what the cali is. If you have ever seen or treated a gunshot trauma you know how ridiculouss talk about any caliber being inadequate for self defense is. If nothing else, the sheer volume of deaths from .22 weapons should show that's more than deadly enough.

likewise those that walk away after being shot with a .22 as well.

 

[alkemyst]

So you'll volunteer for me shooting you with my .22 at 7 yards?

If someone breaks into my house, the first thing I'm going for after dialing 911 is my M&P 15-22, and I can guarantee you, whoever just broke in isn't walking out.

Are you Chuck Norris?

 

[irishScott]

So you'll volunteer for me shooting you with my .22 at 7 yards?

If someone breaks into my house, the first thing I'm going for after dialing 911 is my M&P 15-22, and I can guarantee you, whoever just broke in isn't walking out.

Yes, meanwhile I'll go for my 1911 and likely neutralize the threat in fewer shots with a more intimidating blast on a more agile platform.

Yes, a .22 will kill, under the right circumstances. But there are other far superior options. It's all a matter of effectiveness. You want to choose one of the least effective options, that's your problem. There's a reason no police or military forces use the .22.

And yes, if the choice was between being shot with .22 vs any larger caliber, I'd gladly volunteer to be shot by your .22. Hell I'd even wear some thick, sturdy clothing for the occasion to keep it from reaching my vitals.

The point of any self defense situation is to end the threat as quickly and efficiently as possible. Shooting center of mass you may need 5 shots to my 1 to stop a threat. That is not quick or efficient.

 

[RampantAndroid]

Yes, meanwhile I'll go for my 1911 and likely neutralize the threat in fewer shots with a more intimidating blast on a more agile platform.

Yes, a .22 will kill, under the right circumstances. But there are other far superior options. It's all a matter of effectiveness. You want to choose one of the least effective options, that's your problem. There's a reason no police or military forces use the .22.

And yes, if the choice was between being shot with .22 vs any larger caliber, I'd gladly volunteer to be shot by your .22. Hell I'd even wear some thick, sturdy clothing for the occasion to keep it from reaching my vitals.

The point of any self defense situation is to end the threat as quickly and efficiently as possible. Shooting center of mass you may need 5 shots to my 1 to stop a threat. That is not quick or efficient.

Worse, in those 5 shots needed, the perp may close the distance and be close enough to disarm you, stab you etc. I bet that one shot from my 1911, 41 mag or esp my 44 mag will drop anyone coming through my door. 22 is better than say...a knife, but not by much.

 

[glenn1]

likewise those that walk away after being shot with a .22 as well.

Sure people survive gunshot wounds regardless of caliber all the time, up to and including high power rifle rounds. I can link to Medal of Honor award citations that will make your balls shrink 2 sizes when you see how many times a guy got shot. I can also show you coroner reports where people die after being hit with things a lot less powerful than a .22 like pellet guns, BBs, or even a rock.

 

[RampantAndroid]

Sure people survive gunshot wounds regardless of caliber all the time, up to and including high power rifle rounds. I can link to Medal of Honor award citations that will make your balls shrink 2 sizes when you see how many times a guy got shot. I can also show you coroner reports where people die after being hit with things a lot less powerful than a .22 like pellet guns, BBs, or even a rock.

It's not about that. What are the chances that the first round out of a 22 is going to stop the intruder, compared to a 45 round? The 45 (or 9. Or 40, 10, 41, heck even a 380) will have MUCH better chances.

 

[basslover1]

Are you Chuck Norris?

Second cousin on my mother's side.

Yes, meanwhile I'll go for my 1911 and likely neutralize the threat in fewer shots with a more intimidating blast on a more agile platform.

Yes, a .22 will kill, under the right circumstances. But there are other far superior options. It's all a matter of effectiveness. You want to choose one of the least effective options, that's your problem. There's a reason no police or military forces use the .22.

And yes, if the choice was between being shot with .22 vs any larger caliber, I'd gladly volunteer to be shot by your .22. Hell I'd even wear some thick, sturdy clothing for the occasion to keep it from reaching my vitals.

The point of any self defense situation is to end the threat as quickly and efficiently as possible. Shooting center of mass you may need 5 shots to my 1 to stop a threat. That is not quick or efficient.

I'll never say the .22 is the most effective man stopper, but you seem to think it's completely ineffective, judging by your willingness to let me shoot you.

You're also assuming that you'll be able to hit center mass in one shot, in a situation you've never likely been in. So what if it takes more rounds to drop someone dead, you aren't going to laugh off getting hit by a few rounds if .22lr, even though you think it'll be a walk in the park.

Not only that when you miss, which you will, you're now accountable for that .45 round that went through your wall and into your neighbor's house.

Worse, in those 5 shots needed, the perp may close the distance and be close enough to disarm you, stab you etc. I bet that one shot from my 1911, 41 mag or esp my 44 mag will drop anyone coming through my door. 22 is better than say...a knife, but not by much.

Right, because you're going to charge straight towards the person that's firing at you, that only makes sense if the "perp" is a zombie and clearly wants to feast on my brain.

And unless you're a champion knife thrower, a .22 in a break-in, self defense situation, is going to to be more effective.

 

[Merad]

I bet that one shot from my 1911, 41 mag or esp my 44 mag will drop anyone coming through my door.

That's a bet you''re likely to lose.

 

[etrigan420]

Why does every gun thread devolve into a "My Dick is Bigger Than Yours" thing?

I just picked up a 640-1 recently, going to shoot it for the first time tonight.

...hopefully I still have the wrist strength of my youth. 😱

 

[basslover1]

Why does every gun thread devolve into a "My Dick is Bigger Than Yours" thing?

I just picked up a 640-1 recently, going to shoot it for the first time tonight.

...hopefully I still have the wrist strength of my youth. 😱

I guess they're trying to make up for life's short comings...

 

[BladeVenom]

People underestimate small caliber handguns. http://www.buckeyefirearms.org/node/7866

 

[RampantAndroid]

Right, because you're going to charge straight towards the person that's firing at you, that only makes sense if the "perp" is a zombie and clearly wants to feast on my brain.

And unless you're a champion knife thrower, a .22 in a break-in, self defense situation, is going to to be more effective.

So the crazy F-er who was likely some combination of high and drunk that tried breaking my door down was going to see a gun and turn around? He tried to take on a cop. He was really REALLY messed up. I wouldn't doubt it if he charged someone with a gun.

I bring up a knife, because in close quarters, a knife is better than pistol whipping someone.

That's a bet you''re likely to lose.

No, it isn't. It's going to knock them back.

 

[Deleted member 4644]

You guys are ridiculous arguing the fine points of .22 stopping power.

The bottom line is that a .22 is going to have less energy and fewer defensive variants (hollow point, etc). It obviously can kill. But it is also obvious that a .40 or .45, or better yet a shotgun with buck shot, can kill more reliably and faster.

It might only be a matter of 5% better or 10% better... we could debate that all day ... but if your life is on the line why not get the best you can get.

That said, some small people can't handle recoil, and for them a .22 might actually be the best possible option.

 

[basslover1]

So the crazy F-er who was likely some combination of high and drunk that tried breaking my door down was going to see a gun and turn around? He tried to take on a cop. He was really REALLY messed up. I wouldn't doubt it if he charged someone with a gun.

I bring up a knife, because in close quarters, a knife is better than pistol whipping someone.

No no, not stop at "seeing" a gun, re-read what I posted, he'll stop after being hit/shot at a few times.

I think you'd be pretty dumb to stand still while some criminal is charging at you, you have a gun, use it.

 

[RampantAndroid]

That said, some small people can't handle recoil, and for them a .22 might actually be the best possible option.

And as 5.7mm is now being made by more than just FN, I'd suggest looking into that.

No no, not stop at "seeing" a gun, re-read what I posted, he'll stop after being hit/shot at a few times.

I think you'd be pretty dumb to stand still while some criminal is charging at you, you have a gun, use it.

I know what you wrote. If they are moving at you already - with any speed - then they can close the distance quickly. .22 has no real muzzle energy behind it. They'll just keep coming. What's the FBI test - pull your gun at 15 yards and be lethal is the requirement? If you take too long, or miss, the perp is on you and your gun may not be pointed at the target, you might be disarmed, stabbed, dead etc.

I mean, for HD I'd suggest people buy a shotgun. For concealed carry, I'd suggest nothing smaller than 9mm/.38 special (no .380s unless you cannot conceal a larger gun.)

 

[basslover1]

And as 5.7mm is now being made by more than just FN, I'd suggest looking into that.



I know what you wrote. If they are moving at you already - with any speed - then they can close the distance quickly. .22 has no real muzzle energy behind it. They'll just keep coming. What's the FBI test - pull your gun at 15 yards and be lethal is the requirement? If you take too long, or miss, the perp is on you and your gun may not be pointed at the target, you might be disarmed, stabbed, dead etc.

Other than your ".22 has no real muzzle energy behind it" comment, wouldn't this apply to any caliber? Someone charging at you, if you miss you're fucked. At least with my .22 rifle I can snap of 5+ rounds extremely quickly with good accuracy, the same isn't really true for larger calibers.


Regardless, this argument has gone on for ages, and will continue to do so after this. If you don't want to use a .22, that's fine, but to say it's ineffective is complete bullshit. Is it the most effective? No, I'd say in a house invasion a shot-gun would be best, but to flat out discredit the .22 is ignorant.