YAGT: OMG I love guns

[phucheneh]

Meh. I respect your opinion, but I find it hard to believe that the 1911, especially with the common modernization mods, somehow requires greater precision that what modern, non-custom-shop manufacturers are capable of.

CZ pattern guns are a great parallel, IMO.And they share an awful lot of design cues with the Hi-Power, which itself was like a more high-tech (...for 1935) 1911. Modern steel or alloy-framed CZ's are generally $400-500 guns, assuming you're talking about the 'base models,' with no upgraded parts, basic duracoated frames/slides, ect.

Then there are steel Tanfoglios that can be had for 400, sometimes less.

Aluminum or steel-framed Turkish copies can be had for as little as $300, and they are arguably the best made of anyone's standard line. They're milled on state-of-the-art machinery to tolerances that could be tighter, if they so desired. But clearances are specifically kept where they are to aid reliable functioning.

Speaking of which, I've actually heard of a lot of that in 1911's: $1000+ guns that don't function properly because they're actually too tight.

I dunno...it just doesn't add up to me. If there is some magic in 1911's that I simply do not understand, I'll probably have to start messing with one before I do. And as a tinkerer, I'd kinda rather start with a cheap one to do that learning. It certainly worked for learning CZ's inside and out.

 

[phucheneh]

BTW, I read a lot of this guide and thought it was pretty neat:

https://www.1911addicts.com/threads/buyers-guide-for-all-you-1911-addicts.511/

I think it says a lot that a guy who owns like 100+ 1911's, including $3000+ guns, can still acknowledge the good and bad of the cheaper models. He seems to echo a lot of the common sentiments...RIA's are quite decent for the price, as are Metro, ATI, and other Filipino guns (Citadel? Not sure who makes them). Norincos were crude but durable. Para is functional, but shit for what you pay. Ect.

Also, here's another stray observation from reading 1911 forums...the STI Spartan is one of the most highly-recommended guns in that meaty $600-700 range...and it's made by Armscor. And no, I don't think it features special STI improvements, either, judging by what I know about their GP6. That was also a $600-700 pistol that people raved about, which is now available without their markings, in improved form, no less, for $500. Even less if you count the firesale mk7 guns (the GP6 was a mk6 K100).

I really think there is just too much brand-name placebo when it comes to guns.

 

[rudeguy]

BTW, I read a lot of this guide and thought it was pretty neat:

https://www.1911addicts.com/threads/buyers-guide-for-all-you-1911-addicts.511/

I think it says a lot that a guy who owns like 100+ 1911's, including $3000+ guns, can still acknowledge the good and bad of the cheaper models. He seems to echo a lot of the common sentiments...RIA's are quite decent for the price, as are Metro, ATI, and other Filipino guns (Citadel? Not sure who makes them). Norincos were crude but durable. Para is functional, but shit for what you pay. Ect.

Also, here's another stray observation from reading 1911 forums...the STI Spartan is one of the most highly-recommended guns in that meaty $600-700 range...and it's made by Armscor. And no, I don't think it features special STI improvements, either, judging by what I know about their GP6. That was also a $600-700 pistol that people raved about, which is now available without their markings, in improved form, no less, for $500. Even less if you count the firesale mk7 guns (the GP6 was a mk6 K100).

I really think there is just too much brand-name placebo when it comes to guns.

Do you remember how you ranted and raged at people in this thread for buying Sigs? You went over the top with it. Then you ended up buying a Sig.

You drove a lot of people out of this thread with your attitude and attacking other people over their choices. Just because you don't agree with someone's choice doesn't make them wrong.

 

[phucheneh]

Yeah, I don't think I 'ranted and raged' at anyone over their choices.

I own one ~$400 Sig and I still don't think vanilla P220's and P226's are even close to being worth the $800+ some of them go for.

And I still think the 238/938 are dumb, but that's not really Sig's fault; they're just building what people seem to want.

I don't really see how any of that has anything to do with questioning if 'low-end' American 1911's, especially those not actually made in America, are actually better than those produced by [comparatively] no-name foreign companies.

You seem to be confusing me not accepting every single thing one person says with being antagonistic or dismissing their opinion. I seek to be neutral and evaluate things based on their own merits, and not immediately believe and/or perpetuate what might be bad info.

 

[rudeguy]

Yeah, I don't think I 'ranted and raged' at anyone over their choices.

I own one ~$400 Sig and I still don't think vanilla P220's and P226's are even close to being worth the $800+ some of them go for.

And I still think the 238/938 are dumb, but that's not really Sig's fault; they're just building what people seem to want.

I don't really see how any of that has anything to do with questioning if 'low-end' American 1911's, especially those not actually made in America, are actually better than those produced by [comparatively] no-name foreign companies.

You seem to be confusing me not accepting every single thing one person says with being antagonistic or dismissing their opinion. I seek to be neutral and evaluate things based on their own merits, and not immediately believe and/or perpetuate what might be bad info.

You're a damn liar.

And a psychopath. Your talk of "finger fucking" guns and wishing death on innocent people combined with your rage and grandiose attitude scare me. I don't want to associate with people like you and I fear that you will bring shame to AT like Laughner did to THR.

I'm out of this thread forever.

 

[shortylickens]

My Kimber is nicely built, but its a 2000 dollar gun that I got used for much less money.

Would never pay for a brand new one.

 

[HumblePie]

Even if I was made of money, I wouldn't buy a Colt.

I just really have a hard time believing that Turks, Italians, Czechs, Slovaks, ect can build DA/SA 9mm's that you can buy for $300-400 that are practically bombproof, yet NO ONE can competently copy a 100 year old .45 design for less than ~$650.

My suspicion is that the 1911 market and associated information is simply much more heavily skewed by OFWG's than any other segment. "Hoo-urr, dem Fillipean guns is shit, buy Amurican made! *holds up $1200 100% cast Para*"

That's pretty much my opinion as well as there are a lot of elitists when it comes to guns in the 1911 and AR15 platform for various reasons. That and Glocks. I personally own a Girsan 1911 made in Turkey for $400 ish that I've put a few thousand rounds through with no problems at all. Even installed some after market parts in it with zero problems too which included a different mainspring for lighter trigger and fiber sights because I like them. Even posted the pics of it in this thread previously.

 

[phucheneh]

You're a damn liar.

And a psychopath. Your talk of "finger fucking" guns and wishing death on innocent people combined with your rage and grandiose attitude scare me. I don't want to associate with people like you and I fear that you will bring shame to AT like Laughner did to THR.

I'm out of this thread forever.

I think you're the one who really needs to resolve some mental issues. The little voices in your head are getting to you, eh? What's 'scary' are the attributes you assign to strangers on the internet based on written text. Projection, perhaps?

Because I have no shame in using exaggerated hyperbole to express my opinion, oh noes, I'm teh krazy man, hide your children. I'm gonna jump through the internet and get them. Although, in some cases, yes, I do really think the world would be better off without certain human beings on this planet.

What, you wouldn't go back in time and kill Hitler? 'The fuck's wrong with you? Yeah, I admit it, I'd go back in time and kill Hitler. And also Kim Kardashian and Kanye West. What of it?

Christ, you fit the stereotype of a seventy-year-old man watching Fox News so well. 'My god, who is this 4chan character? Is he coming to get me?! WON'T SOMEONE THINK OF THE CHILDREN?!?!'

Anyway...


Humble- funny you should mention Girsan, as it seems to be them and Tisas who have the most absolutely bipolar reputations. If they're anything like Canik and SAR, I bet their guns are WONDERFUL for their price range...and a lot of people seem to agree. But just as many claim that they are utter junk. It really gets to be baffling...no one's QC is that hit-and-miss.

For all the bitching the 1911 crowd does, I still don't think I've seen a single example of a bad gun with REAL evidence to back it up. No pictures, nothing.

Hell, I've seen more well-documented cases of issues with the aforementioned Caniks and SARs, in spite of which, I still think they deserve a rather stellar reputation (it doesn't hurt than most all the complaints turn out to be either cosmetic or user error...).

 

[HumblePie]

Humble- funny you should mention Girsan, as it seems to be them and Tisas who have the most absolutely bipolar reputations. If they're anything like Canik and SAR, I bet their guns are WONDERFUL for their price range...and a lot of people seem to agree. But just as many claim that they are utter junk. It really gets to be baffling...no one's QC is that hit-and-miss.

For all the bitching the 1911 crowd does, I still don't think I've seen a single example of a bad gun with REAL evidence to back it up. No pictures, nothing.

Hell, I've seen more well-documented cases of issues with the aforementioned Caniks and SARs, in spite of which, I still think they deserve a rather stellar reputation (it doesn't hurt than most all the complaints turn out to be either cosmetic or user error...).

I've seen some bad examples. There was a few reviews I read on the initial Taurus 1911's they put out with pictures that showed very bad machining done on them. There was slag still on edges, horrible tool marks, and even some mis-alignment. It wasn't just one gun that got messed up, but a few from the thread of people showing their guns. Was a long time ago when I read that thread so my google fu in finding it now isn't working.

I also had an issue with my Ruger SR22 with it initially having a badly machined barrel that basically caused the bullets to fire out at a 45 degree angle. It was a gun that made it through their QA and was screwed up when I purchased it. They honored their warranty no problem and fixed it quickly. I also had a problem with a mossberg shot gun too with a feed ramp problem that would cause the last shell to not chamber at all. Again two companies known for very good quality and I got 2 duds from them. I didn't think it was anything more than my misfortune to be a person that bought the very low percentage of their products that got messed up during manufacturing. No company has 100% perfect product creation which is why they all offer warranties.

The girsan I have was great, bu like you said I've seen reviews both ways for it. But the price you pay for one and what you get are well worth it if you didn't get an initial manufacturing dud. Even if you do, there is a warranty to take care of it.

 

[RampantAndroid]

I think you're the one who really needs to resolve some mental issues. The little voices in your head are getting to you, eh? What's 'scary' are the attributes you assign to strangers on the internet based on written text. Projection, perhaps?

Because I have no shame in using exaggerated hyperbole to express my opinion, oh noes, I'm teh krazy man, hide your children. I'm gonna jump through the internet and get them. Although, in some cases, yes, I do really think the world would be better off without certain human beings on this planet.

Welcome to forums, where hyperbole is easily misread or misinterpreted. Also, finger fucking guns? Really?

Meh. I respect your opinion, but I find it hard to believe that the 1911, especially with the common modernization mods, somehow requires greater precision that what modern, non-custom-shop manufacturers are capable of.

CZ pattern guns are a great parallel, IMO.And they share an awful lot of design cues with the Hi-Power, which itself was like a more high-tech (...for 1935) 1911. Modern steel or alloy-framed CZ's are generally $400-500 guns, assuming you're talking about the 'base models,' with no upgraded parts, basic duracoated frames/slides, ect.

Then there are steel Tanfoglios that can be had for 400, sometimes less.

Aluminum or steel-framed Turkish copies can be had for as little as $300, and they are arguably the best made of anyone's standard line. They're milled on state-of-the-art machinery to tolerances that could be tighter, if they so desired. But clearances are specifically kept where they are to aid reliable functioning.

Speaking of which, I've actually heard of a lot of that in 1911's: $1000+ guns that don't function properly because they're actually too tight.

I dunno...it just doesn't add up to me. If there is some magic in 1911's that I simply do not understand, I'll probably have to start messing with one before I do. And as a tinkerer, I'd kinda rather start with a cheap one to do that learning. It certainly worked for learning CZ's inside and out.

US labor is more expensive. Guns like the CZ75 are cast. The 1911 takes a lot more time to assemble (and often, custom fit); the finish on some of the 1911s is still bluing, not the faster tenifer or teflon coatings. People buying 1911s want a nicely tuned gun often, not another mushy glock trigger.

Etc. The BHP is still an expensive gun as well...for comparison. A 1911 is a luxury gun at the end of the day. A well made and tuned 1911 is a great gun...far better than a $500 glock. And a Sig is usually better than a Glock too. Worth the price? Maybe they're a hundred over what I'd like to pay, but they're fine guns now that quality control seems to be improved. My Dan Wesson was not cheap, but it was worth it. I have a gun I trust AND enjoy shooting.

 

[BlitzPuppet]

Wow, good riddance if he was serious.

In other good news I got tracking information on my AK74 Receiver, got the trigger group in the mail today, and am now ready to start putting the rifle together (hopefully) this weekend.

Once everything's all function tested and good to go I plan on Gun-Kote-ing the barrel and receiver a matte black finish. She's going to be purty

 

[Skel]

BTW, I read a lot of this guide and thought it was pretty neat:

https://www.1911addicts.com/threads/buyers-guide-for-all-you-1911-addicts.511/

I think it says a lot that a guy who owns like 100+ 1911's, including $3000+ guns, can still acknowledge the good and bad of the cheaper models. He seems to echo a lot of the common sentiments...RIA's are quite decent for the price, as are Metro, ATI, and other Filipino guns (Citadel? Not sure who makes them). Norincos were crude but durable. Para is functional, but shit for what you pay. Ect.

Also, here's another stray observation from reading 1911 forums...the STI Spartan is one of the most highly-recommended guns in that meaty $600-700 range...and it's made by Armscor. And no, I don't think it features special STI improvements, either, judging by what I know about their GP6. That was also a $600-700 pistol that people raved about, which is now available without their markings, in improved form, no less, for $500. Even less if you count the firesale mk7 guns (the GP6 was a mk6 K100).

I really think there is just too much brand-name placebo when it comes to guns.

Yes and no.. While there are a lot of people who worship at the shrine of one brand name or another, there is a lot to be said about the consistency of a known brand. I know exactly what I'm going to get when I pick up a Glock or S&W or a Walther or Sig.. or.... When you start getting into odd branded imports (or even odd branded US brands) you start getting different results. You may not have had any issues with some of the imports you like, but I and many of my friends have. That's why I personally will pay a premium for known brands over a off the wall brand, even with something that's supposed to be made to specs like the 1911. It may seem stupid for you, but it falls in line with the two major wants when I own a firearm, 1: It fires reliably and 2: I can get most if not all of my money back out of it if I sell it. I can do that with a lot of the stuff I buy, but I can't do it with the odd ball that no one has heard of. At the end of the day though, to each their own.

 

[phucheneh]

The Girsans and Tisas have sold a lot more than I had thought. Hundreds of reviews on Bud's, and they claim thousands sold. Also, I did not previously know that they are on their '100% guaranteed' list of manufacturers- so the importer's warranty is not even of much consequence, as Bud's will refund or replace themselves.

I watched Hickok's Tisas review, and he seemed to indicate that he was quite impressed with it for the money. Which, I think, most can agree is just enough money for the Turks or Filipinos to make solid, basic 1911.

What I don't believe are the claims that the 1911 is like a turn of the century typewriter, requiring complex fitment of intricate parts. People make the same claims of old single-action revolvers, and it's like...REALLY? Do you know how Peacemakers were made? Yeah, there was more hand-fitting...because the metal and the manufacturing processes were absolute crap in comparison to modern day. You want a modernized, overbuilt SA revolver for shooting wild boar in the face? Buy a Ruger SBH. You want something close to what a genuine Single Action Army would've been like? Shit, buy a ~$400 Uberti.

Anyway, so yeah- I acknowledge the 1911 is more complex than most, and I've owned enough Turkish guns to know what to expect: Well-made guns that aren't pretty. Ugly finishes, but good machining. Good fit from the major parts, possible issues from minor parts...I don't consider a rear sight coming loose, or a roll pin needing replaced, ect, to be the end of the world.




All that said, I still think I'm leaning toward the Metro (non-Armscor Filipino-made) option. The ACII is like $460 with a 'Make Offer' option. I like that you get an improved trigger, extended safety and slide-stop, and other little bonuses. And their bluing and/or hard chrome look pretty damn gorgeous in comparison to the polycoated Turk guns or the parkerized RIA's.

I expect that all the small parts on any of these cheaper guns are cast or MIM, so I am trying to simply buy what seems like the best quality frame/slide/barrel. Do you know what if anything other than the barrel is forged in the Tisas or Girsans?

 

[phucheneh]

Shit, Humble's was the last reply while I was typing that. Allow me to just ask one more question-

Welcome to forums, where hyperbole is easily misread or misinterpreted. Also, finger fucking guns? Really?

Am I the only one that is familiar with that term? I've never seen anyone take such offense to it...'finger fucking' is just a crude way of saying 'I went to a gun shop and evaluated something purely on handling characteristics.' It's kind of derogatory, i.e. 'that guy never buys anything, he just comes in to finger fuck all the merchandise.'

 

[HumblePie]

Girsan I have has MIM pieces like the hammer, and barrel link that I can remember off the top of my head. Neither piece needs to be anything other than that. If you really want non MIM you can buy inexpensive pieces if you shop around. I know the slide is also forged for the Girsan, and unsure of how the frame is made by my memory. I looked it up, but I remember being not at all worried about it. Again, you can go search this thread for my older review and dis assembly of it which included pictures.

 

[HumblePie]

http://forums.anandtech.com/showthread.php?p=34790471&highlight=girsan#post34790471

Link to my previous post when I got it. I also looked up my discussion about it and the frame is milled from steel barstock. Pretty much same mil spec standard that it suppose to be made from. Here is where I was talking about it.

http://forums.anandtech.com/showpost.php?p=35667214&postcount=6324

 

[phucheneh]

Thanks for the links. I suspected the Turks might also have forged slides and, as you said, more than adequate frames.

That said, ooooh...look what just popped up on Armslist in my area:

http://www.armslist.com/posts/40647...-arms-american-classic-ii--upgrades---extras-

Call it a $450 gun, plus at least 50 bucks of ammo, and I think the extras would make it a solid buy at 600. However, I'm trying to apply previously-learned lessons and resist buying a secondhand import...one of the attractions for a lot of these guns is the solid warranty support. As mentioned, Bud's stands behind the Turkish guns themselves. RIA's customer service is highly regarded, and Eagle (Bersa/Metro/Grand Power) is also damned good, with the common lifetime warranty (but ONLY for the original purchaser...).

 

[Zargon]

Shit, Humble's was the last reply while I was typing that. Allow me to just ask one more question-



Am I the only one that is familiar with that term? I've never seen anyone take such offense to it...'finger fucking' is just a crude way of saying 'I went to a gun shop and evaluated something purely on handling characteristics.' It's kind of derogatory, i.e. 'that guy never buys anything, he just comes in to finger fuck all the merchandise.'

my buddies and I use that term all the time

we also end up finger fucking each others collections when we are hanging out at their houses.

 

[adairusmc]

my buddies and I use that term all the time

we also end up finger fucking each others collections when we are hanging out at their houses.

Exactly, not seeing an issue at all with using that term.

 

[IGemini]

I have a lot of respect for the 1911 platform but I'm really only interested in a few options. I'm not a purist nor do I care about the 70 vs 80 series trigger arguments. I won't consider a 1911 above $800 unless it has more than the 7/8 round cap. So far...

Para Black Ops Recon or 14.45 (4" or 5" respectively)
- The all-frills option: G10 grips, ambi safety, tritium sights. Felt nice to handle. Kinda hard to swallow at $1000-1200 depending on where and what model.

Rock Island Armory HC 5"
- I know they had at least one DS model but I think they're releasing a new one this year. Much more affordable than the Para but also seems to be harder to find.

ATI FX45 LW Fatboy
- Also handled. Probably what I'd consider if I wanted a carry 1911. 3" and 12-round magazines. I know where I can easily get one and they tend to be around $700.

Ruger SR1911 5"
- About as close to "classic" as I care for. I'm even breaking my "no nickel/stainless" rule for this unless they come out with a blued/parkerized version by the time I'm ready for one.

 

[phucheneh]

That ATI is a 12rd gun?! It looks like a CZ RAMI.

I only googled it because I thought it was gonna be one of those hideous things with a 3" barrel and a full-size grip...I was gonna state my dissent. How some people think giving a gun a tiny barrel makes it a 'carry' weapon, I just don't know...just makes it awkward. The grip is what prints, and a longer muzzle helps keep it in place.

But it does bring up the other concern that I think will aid me in my quest for a 'good enough' 1911- there are plenty of well-regarded cheap 5" models. But as soon as you start chopping them down, reliable feeding/cycling seems to get more and more uncommon. Luckily, I am not a 'cocked and locked' guy and only want one for range use, so 5" is totally cool with me.

Check that guide I linked to, if you haven't already, Gemini. It's not super-current, but it's still very relevant. I think the most-commonly recommended buys in your price range for a 5" or Commander-sized are the Ruger, the Remington, or the Spartan. There's also the Kahr/MR-imported 1911's, which I've heard good things about, and at 800 bucks you're edging into SW1911 and Sig territory.

 

[PliotronX]

I have a lot of respect for the 1911 platform but I'm really only interested in a few options. I'm not a purist nor do I care about the 70 vs 80 series trigger arguments. I won't consider a 1911 above $800 unless it has more than the 7/8 round cap. So far...

Para Black Ops Recon or 14.45 (4" or 5" respectively)
- The all-frills option: G10 grips, ambi safety, tritium sights. Felt nice to handle. Kinda hard to swallow at $1000-1200 depending on where and what model.

Rock Island Armory HC 5"
- I know they had at least one DS model but I think they're releasing a new one this year. Much more affordable than the Para but also seems to be harder to find.

ATI FX45 LW Fatboy
- Also handled. Probably what I'd consider if I wanted a carry 1911. 3" and 12-round magazines. I know where I can easily get one and they tend to be around $700.

Ruger SR1911 5"
- About as close to "classic" as I care for. I'm even breaking my "no nickel/stainless" rule for this unless they come out with a blued/parkerized version by the time I'm ready for one.

I have the same problem.. I want a 1911 badly but every time I think about it, the conclusion is that there are better options for the money. "Just to have one" unfortunately doesn't fit my pragmatic ways I too know elitists who believe that if it ain't Colt, it's poop. Won't even go into Sigs...

 

[RampantAndroid]

1911s above the 8 round cap are generally not wanted. The double stack ones are notorious for not feeding well....and the 1911 was originally meant for single stack. no one seems to get it right when the change the gun - I don't know if it's a issue of feed ramp or magazine, but I'd guess both.

For the point on chopping down 1911s, I've played with two cut down 1911s - the S&W Scandium one, and my Dan Wesson. Both cost more, but that is because they're also aluminum frames meant for carry. As I know I've said before: my DW is far and away the most reliable 1911 I've ever touched...but I didn't buy it for the range: I bought it and my 41 magnum with intent of carrying (in different situations - 1911 for two legged creatures, 41mag for 4 legged when hiking/camping/astrophotography.)

WRT 70 vs 80, it's not about the trigger, it's about needing 3 hands to disassemble the slide due to the extra firing pin safety.

 

[phucheneh]

On a random note: props to CZ-USA for being so goddamned reasonable with their replacement parts.

The SA trigger is going in my T100 (got both the aluminum one and the plastic Tactical Sport trigger to see which I prefer). I like the looks of the flat trigger, but it's 35 bucks and they're always out of stock. The rest of that stuff is just odds and ends, mostly as spares for my multilple CZ pattern guns. I need to order a bunch of recoil springs from Wolff, and then all my stuff will be back up to 100%.

Just not a lot of companies out there that make ordering most any part you could want so easy, with fair prices to boot.

 

[phucheneh]

Ooh...this is intriguing. Remington's got a $75 rebate until May, and their GI 1911 is $525 at Grabagun-

http://www.slickguns.com/product/remington-1911-r1-45acp-5-walnut-grips-erpc-610-0

I think that's a pretty good counterpoint to the 'can't buy a decent 1911 for <$500' argument, no? I've always heard good things about those Remingtons.

edit: Jeez, those Rem's have some janky machining-
http://forums.1911forum.com/showthread.php?t=275331

Maybe it's just got a little of that CZ 'bah, we only smooth out the parts that matter' mentality. But man, those are just not the kind of pics that fill with me confidence.