Xbox Series X

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piokos

Senior member
Nov 2, 2018
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By no games I mean nothing that you need a Series X or Series S to play.
So as above: don't expect them to happen.
The console from 2013 will play every game that is on Series S/X for at least 18 months. That pushes us into 2022 at the earliest we see exclusives on series S/X.
Yes. Isn't that great?
I don't understand your concerns.

A 2021 game will work on both Xbox Series X And Xbox One X (maybe even One S). But it'll look and feel miles better on the new console - even before you switch RTRT on.
Seeing what Halo Infinite looks like it is CLEARLY hindering being able to push any kinds of limits with the new hardware. I mean it legit looked like an end of the life cycle 360 game.
And even for a moment you haven't considered it being just badly made by the studio? Or that maybe it WAS meant to be released for an Xbox One and just got delayed long enough to become a Series X launch title? :)

Still, I'm not really that into shooters, I've never played Halo. Just wait for other titles before you start attacking the compatibility idea.
Just wait for something like Assassin's Creed Valhalla - a game that is designed to work on Xbox One, but will probably be able to push Series X near its limits.

And once again: RTRT is the big change. An RTRT game will keep getting better as the hardware gets faster. It's not limited by the original development assumptions.
This is different to how texture/shader graphics, where you basically set the "max IQ" when making the game.
For me personally, once a console loses a disc drive, I'm 100% out.
Well, this intrigues me. Why? Do you buy many games on discs? Or maybe you exchange them with friends?

I've had my Xbox for around 2 years. I only bought 1 disc game in that period: it was on sale in a grocery store (maybe 20% cheaper than on MS Store). But once I added it to the account, I put the disc somewhere and haven't seen it since.

The way I see it, the only problem is that console games don't have any "key" so they can't be registered without inserting the disc into the console.
This is not a problem on PCs. I bought a physical copy of Starcraft II (again: great sale - this time in a bookstore ;) ), but I've never used the disc.

I wonder if MS could somehow make registering games possible on Windows. Personally, I don't have a single DVD drive in my PCs, but I could probably access one easier than an Xbox.
 

piokos

Senior member
Nov 2, 2018
554
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CPU is a lot faster, SSD is a lot faster.
So it will just run slowly or in 480p.
Just give me games that are for the current consoles only so they can be pushed to the limits and optimized for that very specific piece of hardware.
But why would they be?
Xbox is just a limited PC (way more similar than PS is). PC games also work on hardware spanning a decade (or ranging from 200W GPUs to 5W IGPs) - with very different looks and feel depending on how much oomph the PC can provide.

There is absolutely no reason why backward compatibility would hinder utilizing the latest hardware.

And once again: as we move to RTRT, this becomes almost seamless. One PC can run 1000 rays, another one does 1000^2. Same code, same models.
They are basically turning their console division into a PC market with having 5 prebuilt "PCs" in the X1, X1S, X1X, XSS, XSX.
Yes. And it's been going on for a long time.
The problem though is that one of those is from 2013 so the lowest common denominator is very old at this point.
There is no problem.
I mean: there is no reason why a 2021 game wouldn't be stunning on a Series X and remain more or less playable on an aging console.
Why not just let people game on PC if they want to game on PC?
Because why would anyone buy a gaming PC if he can game on a console?

You probably use both a PC and a console. So, understandably, you prefer the console to feel and act differently.

The main difference remains. Unlike on a PC, console gaming means there are minimal IQ customization options. The less, the better. Console does this for you and it prioritizes fps over IQ. That's it.
 

purbeast0

No Lifer
Sep 13, 2001
51,744
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You probably use both a PC and a console. So, understandably, you prefer the console to feel and act differently.
I haven't gamed on a PC in over a decade.

I've bought every Xbox console at launch thus far and have absolutely no interest in the Series X for one simple reason.

It has no games.

If there is a game I want, I can get it for X1X and it will still look fantastic. There is zero reason to get the new console.

If I want to play the new Ratchet and Clank, I will have to purchase a PS5 and will do so. I won't be able to play it on PS4 or anywhere else.
 

jpiniero

Lifer
Oct 1, 2010
11,316
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I haven't gamed on a PC in over a decade.

I've bought every Xbox console at launch thus far and have absolutely no interest in the Series X for one simple reason.

It has no games.

If there is a game I want, I can get it for X1X and it will still look fantastic. There is zero reason to get the new console.

If I want to play the new Ratchet and Clank, I will have to purchase a PS5 and will do so. I won't be able to play it on PS4 or anywhere else.
Exactly, because purchasing games is where the money is made. That's also why the Series S was needed. To draw in people who don't currently have an XBox and aren't yet ready to completely commit to streaming on Gamepass.
 

purbeast0

No Lifer
Sep 13, 2001
51,744
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Exactly, because purchasing games is where the money is made. That's also why the Series S was needed. To draw in people who don't currently have an XBox and aren't yet ready to completely commit to streaming on Gamepass.
Or get an X1 even cheaper.

Whatever the strategy is, I think they are going to fail this generation. I think it will be by far their lowest numbers as far as sales go from any generation, especially at launch. Then actual game sales are going to be even lower as well.

But we will see. I'm just a nobody on the internet so it doesn't really matter what I think lol.
 
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jpiniero

Lifer
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Or get an X1 even cheaper.
Might be tough to buy a new One S. I imagine they will end production soon if they haven't already. The One X already is out of production.

I would not be surprised if MS ends up releasing a Gamepass streaming only device.
 

purbeast0

No Lifer
Sep 13, 2001
51,744
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Might be tough to buy a new One S. I imagine they will end production soon if they haven't already. The One X already is out of production.

I would not be surprised if MS ends up releasing a Gamepass streaming only device.
After playing PSNow over the weekend for the first time ever, I don't understand how one could rely soley on a streaming gaming service. It's good most of the time but there were noticeable hiccups and latency issues in just the 10 or so minutes I tried it out over multiple games. One of those was enough to just turn me off of trying streaming games again.

But you could always fine a used X1 if you wanted to, cheaper than buying the new models coming out. Especially if you want a disc drive.

I don't see the Series S doing well partially because of that alone.
 

quikah

Diamond Member
Apr 7, 2003
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Officially announced.

Only bummer is 512GB SSD. Will need to see what those Seagate expansion cards are going for.

The Medium and Scorn are both Series only or PC. Medium is launch title, not clear on Scorn launch time. Scorn looks weird, reserving judgement on that until we get some reviews, The Medium looks very good.

Halo Infinite was always a cross gen game. One is not holding it back, they have development issues. 343 seems like a poor developer, Master Chief Collection had major issues for years, finally working OK now.

After playing PSNow over the weekend for the first time ever, I don't understand how one could rely soley on a streaming gaming service. It's good most of the time but there were noticeable hiccups and latency issues in just the 10 or so minutes I tried it out over multiple games. One of those was enough to just turn me off of trying streaming games again.
What is your internet speed? I have played a few hours of Xcloud and just have graphical glitches every so often. Zero latency issues. I have 24Mb internet.
 

purbeast0

No Lifer
Sep 13, 2001
51,744
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Officially announced.

Only bummer is 512GB SSD. Will need to see what those Seagate expansion cards are going for.

The Medium and Scorn are both Series only or PC. Medium is launch title, not clear on Scorn launch time. Scorn looks weird, reserving judgement on that until we get some reviews, The Medium looks very good.

Halo Infinite was always a cross gen game. One is not holding it back, they have development issues. 343 seems like a poor developer, Master Chief Collection had major issues for years, finally working OK now.



What is your internet speed? I have played a few hours of Xcloud and just have graphical glitches every so often. Zero latency issues. I have 24Mb internet.
Was at my friends house who has FIOS but not sure of his speed.

And where does it say Medium is Series and PC only?

LOL if that is true. Microsoft straight up lying if that is the case.
 

quikah

Diamond Member
Apr 7, 2003
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Was at my friends house who has FIOS but not sure of his speed.
That should be fast enough, maybe I am not as sensitive to issues...

And where does it say Medium is Series and PC only?

LOL if that is true. Microsoft straight up lying if that is the case.

They never said ALL games, only first party games. They have been back pedaling on that "promise" for a while now. Medium is 3rd party. Up to the devs what they want to support.
 
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piokos

Senior member
Nov 2, 2018
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I haven't gamed on a PC in over a decade.
So why do you care if it works or doesn't work like a PC?
It has no games
If you said "it has no exclusive games" or "no games I can run on my older Xbox" it would save us a lot of trouble.
If there is a game I want, I can get it for X1X and it will still look fantastic. There is zero reason to get the new console.
OK, so don't get one. I still don't understand your problem.
If I want to play the new Ratchet and Clank, I will have to purchase a PS5 and will do so. I won't be able to play it on PS4 or anywhere else.
And you're trying to convince yourself that this is better?
 

jpiniero

Lifer
Oct 1, 2010
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And you're trying to convince yourself that this is better?
The game does take some advantage of the new hardware, rather than just running a current gen game at a higher resolution. I've read a couple anecdotes that developers are simply sick of Jaguar.
 

jpiniero

Lifer
Oct 1, 2010
11,316
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Should say that MS has only officially confirmed the Series S price and release date, not the Series X. Windows Central is probably not wrong though.
 

ElFenix

Elite Member
Super Moderator
Mar 20, 2000
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They are basically turning their console division into a PC market with having 5 prebuilt "PCs" in the X1, X1S, X1X, XSS, XSX. The problem though is that one of those is from 2013 so the lowest common denominator is very old at this point.
iphone/pad developers have more targets and manage just fine.

PC, in comparison, is several generations of graphics cards, each gen having dozens ofcards, multiplied by several generations of processor with scores of variations, and motherboards from many makes with probably hundreds of total variations. so, exactly like what MS is doing with the console division.
 

purbeast0

No Lifer
Sep 13, 2001
51,744
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iphone/pad developers have more targets and manage just fine.

PC, in comparison, is several generations of graphics cards, each gen having dozens ofcards, multiplied by several generations of processor with scores of variations, and motherboards from many makes with probably hundreds of total variations. so, exactly like what MS is doing with the console division.
Comparing mobile games to console games is kind of pointless. They are completely different markets. There are like 100k+ games on mobile but probably like less than 100 of them are relevant. They also aren't known to be known for their graphical fidelity or being a powerhouse performance wise. I mean hell they even push "VR" on mobile. Like let's be real that is not even close to being "real" VR.

You either have games like Candy Crush making tons of money and just getting lucky, or Angry Birds type games. Or you have Minecraft and Fortnite which aren't mobile only and again aren't powerhouses when it comes to graphics. They also don't cost $60 like console games do, and they have like a billion potential customers with all the phones out there.

I'm not saying Xbox won't manage just fine. The games will look fine. I'm more saying you will not see the graphical fidelity and polish of something like The Last of Us 2 on anything Xbox any time soon, not while they have to worry about putting out stuff that performs on a console from 2013. And they have to worry about that for at least 18 months per their own saying.

EDIT:

Also I have done my fair share of mobile development. And developing for the different resolution iPhones is a huge pain in the ass and I hate it. I wasn't making games though. I have made a game but it was like 7 years ago. But with a game, you are using an engine that has already been built, and as the iPhone developer, you don't have to worry about it because the engines like the Unreal engine handle all of that stuff for you.
 

piokos

Senior member
Nov 2, 2018
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The game does take some advantage of the new hardware, rather than just running a current gen game at a higher resolution. I've read a couple anecdotes that developers are simply sick of Jaguar.
There's absolutely no reason why future Xbox games would be made for old hardware and, hence, not utilize Series X/S. Utilizing RTRT would be the obvious counterargument (unless you both think RTRT will not work in any Xbox game).
Games can obviously be made for the best hardware available and still execute on something older - just with worse graphics.

On PCs we have beautiful RTX2080Ti games that will also run on a GTX1050 (or even IGP). And I've never seen anyone on this forum saying: games should be made just for the $300+ GPUs released in last 4 years, f..k all the poor gamers. :)
Xbox is just a PC without a proper Windows. There's a fat layer of abstraction. It's not a 90s console.

What I can suggest you right now: follow the MS Flight Simulator. We know how it looks on a PC, we know what it does to even the most powerful GPUs available today.
It will launch on both Xbox One and Series in few months.

As for the development costs argument:
Will developing games on PS5 be easier? Maybe.
But why do you care so much? You'll still get the same games (sans a few exclusives), looking more or less the same, for roughly the same money.

Either way - unlike with PS - Xbox development goes hand-in-hand with Windows development. That's the huge synergy and cost cutting that MS is betting on.
Future games are expected to work on Xbox, Windows PC and xCloud. But most of the work is done once.
 

cmdrdredd

Lifer
Dec 12, 2001
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Still, I don't understand what a "Series" game is.
Something that works only on a Series console and not on Xbox One / PC? Hopefully, there will be none.
MS is very devoted to front/back compatibility and they clearly aim at a coherent gaming ecosystem covering consoles, PCs and xCloud.

Until RTRT-only games arrive, there's no reason why a game running on Series S wouldn't run on (more powerful GPU-wise) One X.

One S is another story. This tech is really dated. But I love mine anyway. I have a fat backlog of pre-2018 games. I just wanted a faster disk.
You are missing what is being said. If a game works on the OLD XB1, it’s not a new console game. By and large, developers are lazy when they are allowed to be. Expect a million games to look worse on the new Xbox than they do on the ps5 because they are just patching over an original Xbox one title.

A game has to be made so that it takes full advantage of all the features of the high end hardware in the new box and NOT run on past hardware at all. That’s how you sell new consoles. Microsoft is shooting themselves in the foot when everything runs on the hardware people already have. Look at the switch as an example. It has a library of titles you cannot play anywhere else at all. It will continue to enjoy sales because of that. At least Sony didn’t neuter their digital only model. Microsoft messed up, I feel like almost nobody will want to buy the high end unit just to get half assed patches to games.

Edit: I also think you are confused as to what “backwards compatibility” is. It doesn’t mean the old hardware can play the new games, it means the new hardware can play your current library of games. That’s very different from the original Xbox one from 2013 playing a game released in the era of the Xbox series X in 2021.
 
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piokos

Senior member
Nov 2, 2018
554
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You are missing what is being said. If a game works on the OLD XB1, it’s not a new console game. By and large, developers are lazy when they are allowed to be. Expect a million games to look worse on the new Xbox than they do on the ps5 because they are just patching over an original Xbox one title.
My understanding is that we're not talking about games that were made for One and just adapted to Series at minimal cost. Because that's 100% OK. I hope no one expects developers to totally rewrite all the games.

I'm talking about new games - created already with Series in mind, using the dev kit.
I see no reason why this game would not use all the potential of Series hardware - even if it's also made to be playable on something older - even One S. And this is what @purbeast0 suggested in his posts.
That’s how you sell new consoles.
That is just bonkers. Xbox consoles aren't even making money. They exist only to drive game sales. MS is making money on their own games and on commissions.

And as a side-effect, people on forums can spend evenings marveling how "great value" consoles are (in FLOPS/$).
But imagine how much a gaming PC would cost if component manufacturers could take 5-15% of game studios' revenue.
Microsoft is shooting themselves in the foot when everything runs on the hardware people already have.
Not only this is not true from the financial point of view (as above), but totally against the whole strategy MS has right now.
As I said earlier: they're betting on a unified gaming platform. The idea is that you'll be able to play the same games, on the same profile (saves etc) on many different devices - locally or via streaming.

So yeah, you may have a different idea how to steer a global IT company. But they've been doing pretty well so far. :)
Look at the switch as an example. It has a library of titles you cannot play anywhere else at all.
Switch is made by a company that is focused on games. It's a totally different business model, so it's tackled with a totally different approach.
Nintendo actually makes cash on the device itself. In case you haven't noticed, it's more expensive, made of cheaper components and many times smaller compared to big consoles.
Edit: I also think you are confused as to what “backwards compatibility” is. It doesn’t mean the old hardware can play the new games, it means the new hardware can play your current library of games. That’s very different from the original Xbox one from 2013 playing a game released in the era of the Xbox series X in 2021.
I think you haven't read this topic carefully enough to make such a comment.
 
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purbeast0

No Lifer
Sep 13, 2001
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So yeah, you may have a different idea how to steer a global IT company. But they've been doing pretty well so far. :)
I mean I'm not sure how far out of the loop you are, but Microsoft's Xbox division has been doing terrible.


And you say consoles aren't making them money? Here's the headline from the article.

The 21 percent revenue dip was attributed largely to decreases in Xbox console sales.
Of course the whole point of consoles is to sell games. Companies have been taking losses on consoles since like the PS2 era or so. This is nothing new. But if you can't get consoles into people's houses, you aren't going to get the game sales. So yes, games are what drive people to buy the consoles. And when people don't buy consoles (as shown in the article), people don't buy games.

And then there is this from that article as well..

Xbox content and services revenue also decreased significantly over the quarter, down $295 million (11 percent) year-over-year. Microsoft cited a high over the same quarter last year that was attributed "primarily from a third-party title," a reference to Epic Games' blockbuster battle royale title Fortnite, which earned a record $2.4 billion in 2018 before dipping slightly in 2019 to $1.8 billion.
Again, MS struggling due to having no first party games.

(and yes I realize that article is old - I just googled xbox game division sales and that is the first one that came up. But it's somewhat recent in the grand scheme of things)

EDIT:

Here's a more recent article with same bad news.


"In Gaming, revenue declined 10% and 8% in constant currency, below expectations driven by lower console sales and monetization across third party titles. Xbox software and services revenue declined 3% and 1% in constant currency with the tough comparable from a third party title in the prior year offsetting continued momentum in Xbox Live and Game Pass subscriber growth."
 

jpiniero

Lifer
Oct 1, 2010
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MS confirmed the $499 price for the Series X and $220 for the 1 TB expansion. Series X is also being released on Nov 10th.
 

piokos

Senior member
Nov 2, 2018
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I mean I'm not sure how far out of the loop you are, but Microsoft's Xbox division has been doing terrible.

You're seriously trying to support your thesis by showing results from a weaker quarter? How is that even possible?
Why are you so against MS or Xbox that you're doing all of this?

I couldn't find decent time series. I'll compile something in the evening to convince you their gaming business is doing all right. ;)
And you say consoles aren't making them money? Here's the headline from the article.
"The 21 percent revenue dip was attributed largely to decreases in Xbox console sales. "
The popular phrase "making money" refers to profits. Of course Xbox consoles provide some revenue. MS must have sold at least one, right?
But if you can't get consoles into people's houses, you aren't going to get the game sales. So yes, games are what drive people to buy the consoles.
No. Games are what drives people to buy consoles, buy gaming PC, rent a streaming service or go to an internet cafe.

MS is not a gaming company. Their focus is not to make a great console and build a fan base that may keep them alive. That's what companies like Nintendo do. And companies like that go bankrupt from time to time.
MS is a global software company. They diversify their portfolio and try to make as much money as possible.
So just looking at gaming: they earn on games sold on PCs, consoles and they just added cloud. So it doesn't really matter which platform dominates in the coming decade. MS is there.
And BTW: in case you haven't noticed, they make games for PlayStation as well.
And then there is this from that article as well..
"Xbox content and services revenue also decreased significantly over the quarter, down $295 million (11 percent) year-over-year. Microsoft cited a high over the same quarter last year that was attributed "primarily from a third-party title," a reference to Epic Games' blockbuster battle royale title Fortnite, which earned a record $2.4 billion in 2018 before dipping slightly in 2019 to $1.8 billion. "
Again, MS struggling due to having no first party games.
You don't understand the text you're referring to. :)
MS said that the quarterly drop in Xbox revenue is a result of a very good earlier quarter - because of Fortnite. Fortnite made them rich.
Here's a more recent article with same bad news.

How exactly is it "more recent"? It's about 2019Q4. The first article is about 2020Q2.

But thank you for this text. I'll quote a long fragment because you clearly haven't read it.
"
Xbox LIVE monthly active users are now up to 65 million, a new all-time high for the company. This is Microsoft's real bread and butter. The company cares mostly about services, game sales, and recurring subscriptions driven by online engagement--microtransactions, multiplayer, the Xbox Store, etc--simply because they're more profitable in the long run. The entire Xbox business has multiple hooks like Xbox Game Pass, Play Anywhere, and soon game streaming via Project xCloud, and is set up to be one big cycle of online playing and paying. It's the main reason the Xbox One S All-Digital Edition even exists.
"
 

purbeast0

No Lifer
Sep 13, 2001
51,744
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Having 65 million Xbox Live members doesn't really mean anything when it comes to how well they are doing financially because Xbox Live is a free service. Xbox Live Gold is what costs money and they specifically didn't give those numbers. Why? I don't know but they conveniently leave that out. I am an Xbox Live member and haven't turned on my X1 in months. I was a gold member for 10+ years since Halo 2 came out but got rid of it like 2 years into X1 life cycle since they simply had no games I cared about anymore.

That article also says it was updated in August of this year which is why I said it's more recent.

I know fortnite made them rich. It's making every platform that it is on rich. That doesn't mean the console as a whole is doing well.

I will just agree to disagree that games aren't what drives people to buy consoles. I don't see why one would purchase a console if they didn't intend to play said games on it. Console exclusives have always been what drives people to consoles. Think otherwise if you want but I will just disagree instead of calling you wrong lol.

MS is clearly trying to go a different this direction probably because the X1 is pretty much a failure as a whole. The 360 was such a huge success and they got cocky with the X1 and it's pretty much been downhill since the start. They are hoping their new model will be successful and are banking on that but I don't see it working out for them in the end as being their primary focus. Time will tell.
 
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purbeast0

No Lifer
Sep 13, 2001
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MS confirmed the $499 price for the Series X and $220 for the 1 TB expansion. Series X is also being released on Nov 10th.
Does the series X only have 512gb in it too? And it's an extra $220 to get 1tb instead?
 

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