X-Bit Labs - Modern Games and Modern GPUs:

[n7]

Great review!

They use only newer titles, & as usual, it's done in a nice orderly (yet still conprehensive) fashion.

Now truth be told, the one thing that stuck out to me isn't anything to do with the X1800XT or 7800GTXs, though the review did pretty much confirm that the 7800GTX 512 MB is just not at all worth it at its current prices, since the X1800XT is very close behind, & sometimes ahead, in the eye candy modes @ 1600x1200.

What i found interesting is how damn good my old X850XT PE is!

I've been somewhat considering switching from my X850XT PE to a 7800GT or 1800XL, but it really seems there's a very small improvement @ 1600x1200 with AA + AF.
Heck, in some games the X850XT PE still comes out on top of those two newer gen cards

Also, i always thought the 6800GT was slightly better than the X800XL...
Apparently in most newer games, the X800XL is a pretty clear victor over the 6800GS, & the 6800GT.

Just too bad it's lacking SM 3.0.

Overall though, i thought the review was a very informative read.

Comments welcome.

 

[Munky]

That's the general misconception that goes around here: people think the 7800gt is light years ahead of the x850xt pe, where in most benches the two cards are kinda even, give or take a few fps. I also noticed that in most cases when you crank up the res and eye candy the lead of the x1800xt over the 256gtx is much bigger than the lead of the 512gtx over the xt, and yet the I keep seeing post like "the 265 gtx and the xt are evenly matched, the xt is not worth the $50 difference". If anything, the 512gtx is not worth the $200 difference, or even a $100 difference if it was available for that price. Both the xt and the 512 gtx are in a league of their own comared to the 256gtx.

 

[nitromullet]

Unfortunately for gamers, F.E.A.R. title is so demanding that with anisotropic filtering and FSAA turned on in addition to maximal in-game graphics settings, the resolution 1280x1024 becomes unplayable. Either you should decrease quality settings, or buy a multi-GPU setup.

I'm glad to see that they support my ascertion that SLI/Crossfire is required to play this game properly.

 

[n7]

Originally posted by: munky
That's the general misconception that goes around here: people think the 7800gt is light years ahead of the x850xt pe, where in most benches the two cards are kinda even, give or take a few fps. I also noticed that in most cases when you crank up the res and eye candy the lead of the x1800xt over the 256gtx is much bigger than the lead of the 512gtx over the xt, and yet the I keep seeing post like "the 265 gtx and the xt are evenly matched, the xt is not worth the $50 difference". If anything, the 512gtx is not worth the $200 difference, or even a $100 difference if it was available for that price. Both the xt and the 512 gtx are in a league of their own comared to the 256gtx.

Yeah, agreed.

I guess if there are people who don't like AA & AF, then the 7800GTX 256 MB is the card for them

But as soon as AA & AF come into play, pretty much all the ATi cards take a far smaller hit, which puts them on top, whether it's the X1800XT vs. 7800GTX 256 MB, or X800XL vs. 6800GS.

I'd say that nVidia cards = better value for those who don't like AA + AF; ATi cards = better value for those who like eye candy.

Course, i think one has to also pick the card they buy sorta based on the games they play, since there are a few titles where ATi's cards just choke for whatever reasons.

 

[Sunrise089]

Originally posted by: munky
That's the general misconception that goes around here: people think the 7800gt is light years ahead of the x850xt pe, where in most benches the two cards are kinda even, give or take a few fps. I also noticed that in most cases when you crank up the res and eye candy the lead of the x1800xt over the 256gtx is much bigger than the lead of the 512gtx over the xt, and yet the I keep seeing post like "the 265 gtx and the xt are evenly matched, the xt is not worth the $50 difference". If anything, the 512gtx is not worth the $200 difference, or even a $100 difference if it was available for that price. Both the xt and the 512 gtx are in a league of their own comared to the 256gtx.

I tend to agree with you Munky, although I am getting the 7800GT over the now reasonable GTO^2, but I think what might be missing here is how easy it is to OC a 7800GT - specifiacally buy a eVGA one. Right now Newegg has the 460/1100 clocked part at $299 and the probably-not-worth-the-difference 470/1100 at $319, both with copper heatsinks. I think some users will use the eVGA overclock but wouldn't OC an XT-PE themselves, even if they would overclock well (and I don't really know how well they do). Correct me if I'm wrong, but wouldn't a 7800GT at 460/1100 preform a good deal better reletive to an X850 XT-PE than at stock?

 

[CP5670]

There is also the issue of performance above 1600x1200. The 6800 and X800 cards take very big hits above that resolution and fall way behind the 7800 cards. I am not too sure about the X1800s though.

 

[Woofmeister]

Originally posted by: nitromullet

Unfortunately for gamers, F.E.A.R. title is so demanding that with anisotropic filtering and FSAA turned on in addition to maximal in-game graphics settings, the resolution 1280x1024 becomes unplayable. Either you should decrease quality settings, or buy a multi-GPU setup.

I'm glad to see that they support my ascertion that SLI/Crossfire is required to play this game properly.

Is this even in dispute? Try running F.E.A.R. at 1920x1200 with VSync enabled. I can't get a playable frame rate with anisotropic filtering and FSAA turned on even with my SLI setup. There is no satisfying this game.

 

[aweigh]

The X800XL in particular handles anti-aliasing like a champ, compared to the 6800GT, so good for ATI. I prefer higher levels of anti-aliasing to higher resolutions and I'm kicking myself for getting a 6800GT instead of the X800XL... right now i run CS: Source at 1600x1024 @ 66Hz with 1x2 SuperSampling, cuz I find SS is the ONLY type of AA that provides a clear picture in Source games.

 

[Elfear]

Originally posted by: Sunrise089

I tend to agree with you Munky, although I am getting the 7800GT over the now reasonable GTO^2, but I think what might be missing here is how easy it is to OC a 7800GT - specifiacally buy a eVGA one. Right now Newegg has the 460/1100 clocked part at $299 and the probably-not-worth-the-difference 470/1100 at $319, both with copper heatsinks. I think some users will use the eVGA overclock but wouldn't OC an XT-PE themselves, even if they would overclock well (and I don't really know how well they do). Correct me if I'm wrong, but wouldn't a 7800GT at 460/1100 preform a good deal better reletive to an X850 XT-PE than at stock?

To answer you're question, probably, but you have to factor in the overclocking ability of the X850XT PE too. The one I had would do 600/600 with the stock cooler and 640/610 with aftermarket cooling. The 7800GT's don't seem to have that much headroom from what I've seen. The 7800GT is still the better buy if the price is close to the same but like munky said, it's not that much faster.

 

[otispunkmeyer]

Originally posted by: nitromullet

Unfortunately for gamers, F.E.A.R. title is so demanding that with anisotropic filtering and FSAA turned on in addition to maximal in-game graphics settings, the resolution 1280x1024 becomes unplayable. Either you should decrease quality settings, or buy a multi-GPU setup.

I'm glad to see that they support my ascertion that SLI/Crossfire is required to play this game properly.

that and more than a gig of ram

 

[Wreckage]

Originally posted by: munky
That's the general misconception that goes around here: people think the 7800gt is light years ahead of the x850xt pe, where in most benches the two cards are kinda even, give or take a few fps.

In newer games like COD2 and FEAR the GT was beating it by 20fps. That's more than a few give or take.

 

[xtknight]

Originally posted by: munky
That's the general misconception that goes around here: people think the 7800gt is light years ahead of the x850xt pe, where in most benches the two cards are kinda even, give or take a few fps.

A quick perusal through Newegg shows the cheapest X850 XT PE being $101 more than the cheapest 7800GT.

PCI Express x16 Bus

ASUS EAX850XT/PE/2DHTV/256 Radeon X850XT PE 256MB 256-bit GDDR3 VIVO PCI Express x16 Video Card - Retail - $385.00 AR

eVGA 256-P2-N515-AX Geforce 7800GT 256MB GDDR3 PCI Express x16 Desktop PC - Retail - $284.00 AR

Why would you want an X850 XT PE when you could get the better-performing 7800GT for $101 less (unless there was some NVIDIA-specific issue)?

It's not all about performance, it's also the value. Sure the X850 XT PE isn't that much slower than the 7800GT except in COD2/FEAR, but it costs a hundred more and still lacks SM 3.0 (it should be useful at these speeds). If you're going AGP, you won't have the 7800GT to choose from obviously (not now). Unless you cared more about having just half the shimmering, I see no other reason to get the X850 XT PE over the 7800GT on the PCIe bus.

Edit: fixed link/added explanation

 

[jiffylube1024]

Originally posted by: xtknight

Originally posted by: munky
That's the general misconception that goes around here: people think the 7800gt is light years ahead of the x850xt pe, where in most benches the two cards are kinda even, give or take a few fps.

A quick perusal through Newegg shows the cheapest X850 XT PE being $101 more than the cheapest 7800GT.

PCI Express x16 Bus

ASUS EAX850XT/PE/2DHTV/256 Radeon X850XT PE 256MB 256-bit GDDR3 VIVO PCI Express x16 Video Card - Retail - $385.00 AR

eVGA 256-P2-N515-AX Geforce 7800GT 256MB GDDR3 PCI Express x16 Desktop PC - Retail - $284.00 AR

Why would you want an X850 XT PE when you could get the better-performing 7800GT for $101 less (unless there was some NVIDIA-specific issue)?

It's not all about performance, it's also the value. Sure the X850 XT PE isn't that much slower than the 7800GT except in COD2/FEAR, but it costs a hundred more and still lacks SM 3.0. If you're going AGP, you won't have the 7800GT to choose from obviously (not now). Unless you cared more about having just half the shimmering, I see no other reason to get the X850 XT PE over the 7800GT on the PCIe bus.

Edit: fixed link/added explanation

You wouldn't; the only reason the X850XT PE is being considered is for people who own it already, or people with AGP who can see that the AGP's fastest card (X850XT PE) isn't that far behind cards of this generation.

Also sometimes used X850XT PE's come up at better prices than 7800GT's.
------------


Good roundup by Xbitlabs, as always. The graphs make it pretty clear that:

X800XL and 6800GT are pretty much neck and neck; each win a couple and lose a couple by about a 10-15% margin, and the rest are ties. The 6800GT is a slightly better overclocker in my experience than the X800XL, but it's pretty close.

X1800XL and 7800GT are close, but in some newer titles (eg FEAR) the 7800GT pulls away. Both cards are great o/cers from what I've seen (although I've only owned a 7800GT).

512MB 7800 GTX > X1800XT > 7800GTX. Basically what we knew before: the X1800XT manages to pull away from the 7800GTX at high settings with AA/AF in many/most games, but it's consistently below the 512MB 7800GTX. The X1800XT is pretty much between the two flavours of GTX's in most of the tests.

 

[Munky]

Originally posted by: Wreckage

Originally posted by: munky
That's the general misconception that goes around here: people think the 7800gt is light years ahead of the x850xt pe, where in most benches the two cards are kinda even, give or take a few fps.

In newer games like COD2 and FEAR the GT was beating it by 20fps. That's more than a few give or take.

COD2: yes. FEAR: only at 1024 0x0x, which is hardly even worth considering. Turn on AA/AF, or bump up the res, and the picture changes significantly.

 

[Cookie Monster]

You guys are forgetting that the X850XT PE are running all those new games in S.m2.0 mode. All the others are running S.M 3.0. Notice the performance diff in AOE3? The X850XT PE is faster than the X1800XT!!! Thats because its using S.M 2.0. There is big IQ difference as Xbitlabs mention bewteen the two shader models.

I agree with Munky's final conclusion absed on xbitlabs roundup. However, is it me or the 6800GS seems to performace really well? Despite being a 12 pipe card.

 

[xtknight]

Originally posted by: Cookie Monster
You guys are forgetting that the X850XT PE are running all those new games in S.m2.0 mode. All the others are running S.M 3.0. Notice the performance diff in AOE3? Th X850XT PE is faster thanm the X1800XT!!! Thats because its using S.M 2.0. There is big IQ difference as Xbitlabs mention bewteen the two shader models.

Yeah, good thing to point out.

Please note that former-generation ATI RADEON hardware, such as RADEON X800 and X700, uses Shader Model 2.0 render path, whereas the rest boards utilize Shader Model 3.0 code path, which provides additional effects.

 

[Munky]

Originally posted by: xtknight

Originally posted by: munky
That's the general misconception that goes around here: people think the 7800gt is light years ahead of the x850xt pe, where in most benches the two cards are kinda even, give or take a few fps.

A quick perusal through Newegg shows the cheapest X850 XT PE being $101 more than the cheapest 7800GT.

PCI Express x16 Bus

ASUS EAX850XT/PE/2DHTV/256 Radeon X850XT PE 256MB 256-bit GDDR3 VIVO PCI Express x16 Video Card - Retail - $385.00 AR

eVGA 256-P2-N515-AX Geforce 7800GT 256MB GDDR3 PCI Express x16 Desktop PC - Retail - $284.00 AR

Why would you want an X850 XT PE when you could get the better-performing 7800GT for $101 less (unless there was some NVIDIA-specific issue)?

It's not all about performance, it's also the value. Sure the X850 XT PE isn't that much slower than the 7800GT except in COD2/FEAR, but it costs a hundred more and still lacks SM 3.0 (it should be useful at these speeds). If you're going AGP, you won't have the 7800GT to choose from obviously (not now). Unless you cared more about having just half the shimmering, I see no other reason to get the X850 XT PE over the 7800GT on the PCIe bus.

Edit: fixed link/added explanation

I'm not suggesting anyone go buy a $385 x850 xt pe intead of a 7800gt. But if someone already has the x850, the 7800gt is hardly an upgrade. Likewise, if a modded gto or gto2 can achieve the performance of an xt pe or faster, I dont see the "value" of a $300 7800gt.

 

[VIAN]

I dont' like their organization of data.

 

[raystorm]

Where would my 9800 fall in that list of entry level cards?? Is it comparable to the X700??!

I intend on upgrading my entire pc in spring and would like to see what kind of jump in performance I'll see. (currently using Athlon XP 2500+, 1gb ram, 9800 non pro)

 

[Powermoloch]

viva la X850XT !!!! /PE !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Just look at this fella, being still available to agp owners. And microcenter selling x850xt agp for 299 (250 after rebate) how can you not let down the fastest AGP atm. I'm happy with mines

 

[Munky]

Originally posted by: raystorm
Where would my 9800 fall in that list of entry level cards?? Is it comparable to the X700??!

I intend on upgrading my entire pc in spring and would like to see what kind of jump in performance I'll see. (currently using Athlon XP 2500+, 1gb ram, 9800 non pro)

The 9800pro is about the same level as a x700pro, maybe slightly faster. So a 9800 non-pro would probably be slightly slower, but your guess is as good as mine since I havent looked at benches of those cards recently.

 

[Munky]

Is AOE3 an NV-sponsored game? Why does it run so much better on Nv cards? Or is there an issue in the Ati drivers?

 

[Elfear]

Just out of sheer curiosity, I calculated the % performance difference between the X1800XT and the two flavors of 7800GTX. It breaks down as follows at max res and max eye-candy.


..............X1800XT vs. 512MB 7800GTX......256MB 7800GTX vs. X1800XT
.............................% slower.................................% slower

AOE3...........................87.4....................................32.5(faster)
BF2.............................0.8......................................23.7
COD2..........................3.3.......................................53.5
FEAR...........................10.3(faster)...........................44.4
Quake 4......................11.11...................................16.8
Serious Sam 2.............13.6.....................................47
Splinter Cell: CT...........3.7.....................................29.3

Interestingly, even though the 512MB 7800GTX was overall faster in Splinter Cell, the X1800XT had better minimum fps, to the tune of the 7800GTX being 40% slower. AOE3 seems to be somewhat of a fluke that will hopefully be worked out in future drivers.

I thought that the X1800XT would be more evenly spaced between Nvidia's two top offerings, but it looks a lot closer to the 512MB beast than the 256MB version.

 

[Wreckage]

Originally posted by: munky
Is AOE3 an NV-sponsored game? Why does it run so much better on Nv cards? Or is there an issue in the Ati drivers?

AOEIII makes use of SM3.0. Most ATI cards don't support SM3.0. It could also be ATI's lack of a Vertex Texture Fetch.

 

[Munky]

Originally posted by: Wreckage

Originally posted by: munky
Is AOE3 an NV-sponsored game? Why does it run so much better on Nv cards? Or is there an issue in the Ati drivers?

AOEIII makes use of SM3.0. Most ATI cards don't support SM3.0. It could also be ATI's lack of a Vertex Texture Fetch.

The x1k models have sm3 and they still fall behind. And I highly doubt VTF has anything to do with it, because from what I've read at b3d the few games that have this feature result in a huge performance hit on the gf6 and gf7 cards when enabled. I'm gonna do some more searching about this issue.