[X-bit Labs] Intel’s Haswell Could Be Last Interchangeable Desktop Microprocessors

[Greenlepricon]

im sure itll be all for the better. machines will be smaller, higher performing enough and cheap enough that no one will need "high end" machines as they exist today. plus who knows how all the cloud computing stuff will evolve that may make cpu performances irrelevant

That won't be for quite a while. Cpu performance will be relevant for quite some time and I don't think that they'll eventually get to the point where they'll be more or less "equal" between the high and low end specs. I don't do much else besides game, but I have friends who rely on fast processors for rendering and engineering and everything else. Even though you can call a processor fast, when a render pushes the hour mark, that component is going to feel slow. Programs and files aren't shrinking, but growing at an obnoxious rate. It makes sense to want to have the fastest possible, and at a 10-15% gain every generation, it's not looking like that will happen anytime soon. Plus, cloud computing is still reliant on processors. Besides storage, those are probably the most important parts. Otherwise we'll all be holding Wii U controllers in our hands waiting for a signal.

 

[Dadofamunky]

Ugh, I wouldn't ever buy myself a motherboard with the CPU soldered in. I hope Intel never pulls that move. It's already bad enough they're axing their sockets every other year.

Obviously you weren't around for the 8088/80286/80386 days. Every board I bought had the CPU soldered on. I remember paying $750 for a 386-33 motherboard/CPU. I did keep my 286-20 motherboard for an obscenely long time, though, running NetWare back when woolly mammoths roamed the earth.

 

[Zodiark1593]

im sure itll be all for the better. machines will be smaller, higher performing enough and cheap enough that no one will need "high end" machines as they exist today. plus who knows how all the cloud computing stuff will evolve that may make cpu performances irrelevant

Enthusiasts like me won't settle for "Good enough". It's just another phrase for "mediocre". :twisted:

 

[pablo87]

If Intel doesn't abandon sockets completely but as part of an effort to differentiate the market into Value (BGA) and Performance (socket), it could make a lot of sense. if its just to save money, then...

In value we might see $30 cost for mb only, total cost incl. processor will be under $100 at the low-end. The same base board could support higher end processors for customers who want performance but don't need overclockability or discrete graphics. There's going to be significant savings here, possibly as much as $100 at the system and logistics level as not only the bare mb will cost less, but there should be system level savings as well thermals, ps, etc..esp. if they can control maximum overall power consumption at a much lower level eg. 100 watts on desktop (which is the level where AC adapter is cost effective I believe). The MB makers could be by-passed altogether.

For example if you can buy an intel branded mb with G870 processor and memory for $99, or one with an i5 for $199, with 3 year warranty, that becomes a very attractive value proposition for new PC's and even more so for upgrades.

Also getting pretty close to a full PC. All that is needed is a place to mount a 2.5" SSD, some sheet metal to wrap around the mb, and the power circuitry to handle the 19V DC from the adapter. The only complication is loading the OS but soon that may be best left as an option anyway. The rest - plugging in the monitor, the kb, the mouse, the external ODD or hard drive, most users handle now.

Intel can continue to offer socket for DIYers, power users and corporate buyers who prefer it, but only for higher end processors eg. no more G630's. They might even consider introducing processors with no integrated graphics and perhaps more cores, and actually charging more for the integrated graphics ones (because they do add to the cost), and promoting discrete graphics instead of downplaying the category (I never understood that one.

Of course it's a little late to the party with value Desktop PC's gradually going away. Seems Intel is often late to the parties these days...

 

[Arachnotronic]

Let me add some further color here:

If you listen to the latest UBS Technology Conference presentation from Intel, the speaker (Kirk Skaugen, leader of the PC group) noted that the big growth area for desktop PCs was, in fact, the "all-in-one" category - he cited a 30% CAGR for the last couple of years.

He further noted that the next "big" form factor for desktops would be sort of a giant, portable (with handles, battery, etc.) touch-screen all-in-one. This, he remarked, would be the way that Intel would try to help spur a demand to refresh the desktop which - according to him - had not seen much refresh action these days (obviously).

The move to focusing on BGA, especially as these all-in-ones become portable/with batteries, is a power-efficiency move to lower overall platform power, which is probably not as optimal with the LGA chips.

I don't think LGA will go away, and I think Intel will keep the enthusiasts covered, but I don't expect that Intel is foolish enough to think that the majority of desktop users want a big tower anymore.

For us gamers, I expect there will be a move to on socket (the "E" one), and we'll get a much wider variety of chips there. A perfect way to use the latest process node + design on the high volume, power-efficiency, integration-focused products while giving enthusiasts more power-unconstrained, no-IGP-wasting-die-space kinds of products.

 

[OBLAMA2009]

Enthusiasts like me won't settle for "Good enough". It's just another phrase for "mediocre". :twisted:

even now, almost nothing being sold right now is just "good enough". that couldnt be said of stuff out ten years ago.

now that apple has declared the dvd obsolete and the ssd is slowly taking over, there really isnt much to put in a huge computer case. it makes all the sense in the world for 95% of computers to look like mac minis starting next year

 

[Zodiark1593]

even now, almost nothing being sold right now is just "good enough". that couldnt be said of stuff out ten years ago.

now that apple has declared the dvd obsolete and the ssd is slowly taking over, there really isnt much to put in a huge computer case. it makes all the sense in the world for 95% of computers to look like mac minis starting next year

Not sure whether this is sarcasm or not.

In case it's a no: How am I gonna fit a dual GPU setup in a Mac Mini case. :hmm:

 

[cbn]

Let me add some further color here:

If you listen to the latest UBS Technology Conference presentation from Intel, the speaker (Kirk Skaugen, leader of the PC group) noted that the big growth area for desktop PCs was, in fact, the "all-in-one" category - he cited a 30% CAGR for the last couple of years.

He further noted that the next "big" form factor for desktops would be sort of a giant, portable (with handles, battery, etc.) touch-screen all-in-one. This, he remarked, would be the way that Intel would try to help spur a demand to refresh the desktop which - according to him - had not seen much refresh action these days (obviously).

The move to focusing on BGA, especially as these all-in-ones become portable/with batteries, is a power-efficiency move to lower overall platform power, which is probably not as optimal with the LGA chips.

Thanks Intel17.

Some more info:

http://venturebeat.com/2012/09/11/i...-one-computers-you-can-carry-around-the-home/

SAN FRANCISCO — Intel showed off a new kind of all-in-one desktop computer that is a lot more mobile than desktops have ever been.

Kirk Skaugen, the head of the PC client business at Intel, said at the company’s Intel Developer Forum today that the “adaptive all-in-one” computers coming this fall can be detached from their stands and used as 20-inch (or larger) tablets. You can also take them to another part of the house and plug them into another stand, or just run them on battery power.

“The lines between the categories are disappearing,” Skaugen said.

A number of computer makers will introduce those big all-in-one computers in the not-so-distant future, Skaugen said.

Skaugen said that Sony is calling the concept the “desktap,” and it will have a version called the Sony Vaio Tap 20 (pictured left) adaptive all-in-one computer. All-in-one computers are becoming increasingly popular as replacements for traditional desktop computers because they save space and have fewer wires and components.

Skaugen showed off a demo of the Sony computer (pictured at top) that he unplugged and carried around. He laid it flat and began using it as an artist’s canvas, painting the screen with his fingers. The machine runs the touch-oriented Windows 8 operating system from Microsoft. Skaugen said the screens will likely have their own batteries and the intelligence in the system will be built into the screens, not the stands.

Kevin Krewell, senior analyst at The Lynley Group, said, “Not all innovation succeeds. They’re experimenting with things. You learn from doing that. The market will decide if it’s successful or not.”

And Martin Reynolds, a vice president at Gartner, said, “That’s a large thing to haul around, kind of like a portable tv set. But how often did you move around your portable TV set?.”

I think it would be cool if they could standardize the form factor somehow (ie, standardized size or two for the BGA mainboard). Maybe even a smaller form factor too.

Battery life shouldn't be too bad once we get the low power screens. This should keep weight manageable even if the screen diagonal is rather large.

 

[pablo87]

I like the Idea of a luggable desktop (22" 5lbs?) with a massive screen but I still want a keyboard and mouse, its gotta be light and it can't be unwieldy to carry around. Battery is a nice to have but not a must have for me; it adds a lot of weight and I don't really see the point since the screen is so big it has to be set on a table where there's an outlet usually. YMMV

PS - right now all in ones are 12-14lbs...according to specs, Lg 55" OLED is 16.5lbs so there is room for improvement.

 

[dma0991]

I'd like to believe that LGA will still be around for desktops for much longer. If there is any indication of a BGA mounting, it should be Intel's NUC which would serve a large portion of budget and low end markets pretty well while leaving HEDT with the usual LGA.

If desktops were to ever get BGA mounting, I think that there will be fewer SKUs from Intel and motherboard manufacturers will limit 1-2 different motherboards for every chip model Intel releases. This eliminates the possibility of keeping a large inventory of CPU + motherboard.

 

[NTMBK]

I'd like to believe that LGA will still be around for desktops for much longer. If there is any indication of a BGA mounting, it should be Intel's NUC which would serve a large portion of budget and low end markets pretty well while leaving HEDT with the usual LGA.

If desktops were to ever get BGA mounting, I think that there will be fewer SKUs from Intel and motherboard manufacturers will limit 1-2 different motherboards for every chip model Intel releases. This eliminates the possibility of keeping a large inventory of CPU + motherboard.

The low-mid range desktop market could happily be gobbled up by small form factor PCs, whether it's things like the "NUC" or all-in-ones. I recently put together a ZBox ID82 for my girlfriend and mounted it on the back of a monitor, and she's very happy with it- it's plenty of computer for anything that's not gaming. Most people want a computer powerful enough to do what they want, that won't take up a big pile of space, and just don't care about upgrading it.

The high end desktop could be serviced by derivatives of the Xeon chips. The analogy today would be if the first socketed CPU was the i7-3820, or possibly an unlocked version of it.

 

[A5]

Enthusiasts like me won't settle for "Good enough". It's just another phrase for "mediocre". :twisted:

Intel will happily sell you a $400+ -E series chip, then. The enthusiast sector is going to keep getting pushed upmarket.

 

[VirtualLarry]

If there is any indication of a BGA mounting, it should be Intel's NUC which would serve a large portion of budget and low end markets pretty well while leaving HEDT with the usual LGA.

Cute, but in standard Intel fashion, relatively crippled. No USB3.0 support, just because Intel hates it and wants to push ThunderBolt.

 

[Insomniator]

Not sure whether this is sarcasm or not.

In case it's a no: How am I gonna fit a dual GPU setup in a Mac Mini case. :hmm:

Yeah he said 95% of computers, and hell its probably even closer to 99%. No one outside of Anandtech and these sites has dual GPU's. No one upgrades anything.

I completely agree that 'us' will just be buying Xeons in a few years, and the other 99% will be buying all in ones, tablets or laptops.

 

[Towermax]

Obviously you weren't around for the 8088/80286/80386 days. Every board I bought had the CPU soldered on.

Huh? Am I missing something here?

I built multiple systems using these CPUs, and they were *never* soldered on the board. Even my original IBM PC 5150 had a socketed CPU.

I upgraded many 8088, 80286, and 80386 systems with faster CPUs.

 

[ShintaiDK]

Huh? Am I missing something here?

I built multiple systems using these CPUs, and they were *never* soldered on the board. Even my original IBM PC 5150 had a socketed CPU.

I upgraded many 8088, 80286, and 80386 systems with faster CPUs.

Soldered CPUs was the norm. It was first with the 80486DX that sockets starting to showup, besides for the FPU..

 

[Ferzerp]

I had a soldered on 486sx, but then it had a socket that when a cpu was installed in, it would deactivate the soldered on one and use that instead.

I put a DX4 75 in it and OC'ed it to 99Mhz.

 

[nforce4max]

This makes sense for the vast but declining oem and mobile market but for those who purchase with future upgrading in mind this is a bad idea. Also this will impact the second hand market and any company that specializes in rebuilding as well repairing computers. Overall it does save money (per unit manufacturing costs) when all goes well but it could result in higher prices in the long run.

 

[cbn]

I like the Idea of a luggable desktop (22" 5lbs?) with a massive screen but I still want a keyboard and mouse, its gotta be light and it can't be unwieldy to carry around. Battery is a nice to have but not a must have for me; it adds a lot of weight and I don't really see the point since the screen is so big it has to be set on a table where there's an outlet usually. YMMV

PS - right now all in ones are 12-14lbs...according to specs, Lg 55" OLED is 16.5lbs so there is room for improvement.

http://store.sony.com/p/Sony-Deskto...,-touchscreen/en/p/SVJ20217CXW#specifications

Sony 20" TAP = 11.46 lb weight (with battery) according to the specifications.

In contrast, I noticed a plain Dell 20" 16:9 LCD Display (not an all in one) weighs 6.38 lbs without the stand--> http://www.dell.com/ed/business/p/dell-e2011h/pd

So the guts of the Sony all-in-one (with battery) probably come out to be somewhere around 5 lbs.....plus or minus. (Seems kinda heavy for something with a 17 watt Ivy Bridge chip in it.)

With more streamlined guts and a lower power display they should be get the weight down.

 

[nforce4max]

http://store.sony.com/p/Sony-Deskto...,-touchscreen/en/p/SVJ20217CXW#specifications

Sony 20" TAP = 11.46 lb weight (with battery) according to the specifications.

In contrast, I noticed a plain Dell 20" 16:9 LCD Display (not an all in one) weighs 6.38 lbs without the stand--> http://www.dell.com/ed/business/p/dell-e2011h/pd

So the guts of the Sony all-in-one (with battery) probably come out to be somewhere around 5 lbs.....plus or minus. (Seems kinda heavy for something with a 17 watt Ivy Bridge chip in it.)

With more streamlined guts and a lower power display they should be get the weight down.

Nice but most won't go for it due to the weight so there would likely be a wealth of light weight but very low quality knockoffs. Most of that is likely to be the shell and battery. Sony likely doesn't want too many RMA during the warranty period due to cracked screens from being dropped.

 

[Idontcare]

Huh? Am I missing something here?

I built multiple systems using these CPUs, and they were *never* soldered on the board. Even my original IBM PC 5150 had a socketed CPU.

I upgraded many 8088, 80286, and 80386 systems with faster CPUs.

Surely it must have been a matter of purchasers preference (OEM and resellers). I say that because my 8088 (5MB HDD lol ), 286 and 386 were all soldered CPU's with zero upgrade options for the mobo in terms of CPU.

I distinctly remember how cool it was that my 486 sported a CPU socket that I could upgrade the cpu (and I did, twice!).

But I have no doubts that before the 486 platform there were CPU socketed mobos for 286's and so on, as you appear to have experienced.

 

[Towermax]

Soldered CPUs was the norm. It was first with the 80486DX that sockets starting to showup, besides for the FPU..

Except for IBM PCs and ATs and most PS/2s, and many other PC makers, and motherboard manufacturers. In my experience, most had socketed 8088, 80286, and 80386 CPUs. True, they were simple DIP or PLCC or PGA sockets, but they were sockets.

Yes, as your pictures show, there were some soldered CPUs, but these were not, IMO, the norm.

Do you remember IBM's market share at that time?

And do you remember all the 8088, 80286, and 80386 upgrade CPUs and boards that were marketed? By Microsoft and Intel and others like Cyrix and Kingston and Evergreen and Tiny Turbo, etc?

 

[OBLAMA2009]

whats the difference between a luggable desktop and a aio with a handle?

 

[Arg Clin]

I think this is bad thing. Not so much to the lack of upgradeability - I think most people, even enthusiasts save for a few die-hard, never or rarely do cpu upgrades.

Much worse is that I think a lot of flexibility will be lost. The ability to combine cpu+mb freely gives the user a lot more choices than if limited to those chosen by the mb manufacturers.

 

[VirtualLarry]

Much worse is that I think a lot of flexibility will be lost. The ability to combine cpu+mb freely gives the user a lot more choices than if limited to those chosen by the mb manufacturers.

Exactly. We, as purchasers, lose a lot of freedom of choice here. Intel could chose to cripple not just their CPUs, but the platform as a whole, a lot more here.