[X-bit Labs] Intel’s Haswell Could Be Last Interchangeable Desktop Microprocessors

[KingFatty]

I think this can be like how people are very happy to buy tablets that cannot be upgraded.

People are very happy to buy apple computers where everything is soldered.

What if doing away with the sockets actually causes prices to *drop* so we can afford better setups for less? Also, I'm guessing that the very same mobo manufacturers would still let you choose which CPU you want with your motherboard, they'd just be soldered together and the mobo seller would have on-hand any combo you wanted. So you wouldn't lose choice when buying; you'd just lose the ability to disassemble after your initial purchase. But that's pretty common with tablets and other soldered electronics, we are getting used to that model.

In fact, we are happy to use cell phones that we don't upgrade, we just sell them or toss them in a drawer, because they are pretty cheap. If a motherboard/CPU/RAM is all soldered together but costs as much as a new cell phone, maybe we'd be OK with that.

Maybe more people would get into computing because it would cost less and all the tricky stuff would be taken care of, no more needing to figure out which CPUs are compatible with which motherboards/chipsets, or ram or all that crap. I mean, when I decide to upgrade to a faster CPU, it's a major research project and I have to consider which mobo and it's a big hassle.

Maybe this eliminates a huge pain point in our hobby, reduces costs overall costs to make it more affordable for all, and brings more enthusiasts into the hobby?

 

[Zodiark1593]

Yeah he said 95% of computers, and hell its probably even closer to 99%. No one outside of Anandtech and these sites has dual GPU's. No one upgrades anything.

I completely agree that 'us' will just be buying Xeons in a few years, and the other 99% will be buying all in ones, tablets or laptops.

Now I just wish 8 core Xeons weren't so damned pricy, and for overclocking. :whiste:

Also (to the person above), being able to dissassemble and throw back together a PC is part of my hobby. I can even do that with most laptops, in fact, I upgraded the CPU in my own HP DV7 from a Core i5-460M to an i7-720QM, so there!!!

 

[VirtualLarry]

I think this can be like how people are very happy to buy tablets that cannot be upgraded.

People are very happy to buy apple computers where everything is soldered.

What if doing away with the sockets actually causes prices to *drop* so we can afford better setups for less? Also, I'm guessing that the very same mobo manufacturers would still let you choose which CPU you want with your motherboard, they'd just be soldered together and the mobo seller would have on-hand any combo you wanted. So you wouldn't lose choice when buying; you'd just lose the ability to disassemble after your initial purchase. But that's pretty common with tablets and other soldered electronics, we are getting used to that model.

In fact, we are happy to use cell phones that we don't upgrade, we just sell them or toss them in a drawer, because they are pretty cheap. If a motherboard/CPU/RAM is all soldered together but costs as much as a new cell phone, maybe we'd be OK with that.

Maybe more people would get into computing because it would cost less and all the tricky stuff would be taken care of, no more needing to figure out which CPUs are compatible with which motherboards/chipsets, or ram or all that crap. I mean, when I decide to upgrade to a faster CPU, it's a major research project and I have to consider which mobo and it's a big hassle.

Maybe this eliminates a huge pain point in our hobby, reduces costs overall costs to make it more affordable for all, and brings more enthusiasts into the hobby?

Let me ask you this. Is Ice Cream cheaper, if there is only one flavor available?

Reduced consumer choice is good for no one, save a Monopolist (Intel).

 

[Cerb]

Let me ask you this. Is Ice Cream cheaper, if there is only one flavor available?

Nope.

I was actually faced with this exact scenario just days ago, for Thanksgiving. There was a single flavor, vanilla, from a single brand, Blue Bunny, that was ice cream. Only the specialty small-qty brands, like Ben & Jerry's, were more expensive. But, my quest was to acquire ice cream, to go next to warm pie, not frozen dairy fudge.

Now, replace pie with x86 software, real ice cream with Intel CPUs, common 'ice cream' full of gums and glycerides, that has the wrong texture and melting behavior, with ARM, Ben & Jerry's with Oracle, Breyers with Samsung, Mayfield with Qualcomm, and...

 

[cbn]

Why not? It works for discrete video cards where the ram and GPU are soldered onto the PCB.

I'm sure the mobo makers are salivating at the prospects of becoming what would essentially be an AIB for the CPU market, selling "discrete CPU" gear with the CPU and ram soldered onto a PCB that sports a few PCIe slots.

Its already done for smartphone and tablet markets. Complete with soldered-on NAND storage.

It sounds like you are referring to something like this:

http://www.theverge.com/2012/6/5/3064946/intel-21-9-all-in-one-concept-pc

]

Of particular interest is a board Intel is calling the plug-in compute module, which intends to extend the life of all-in-ones by enabling speedy upgrades. The concept is very similar to Samsung's Evolution Kit for its televisions. We were told that the module could potentially host CPUs, chipsets, memory, or components like an mSATA module, and would allow users to upgrade their all-in-one by swapping out the board.

Also, imagine the hassle that will come of this, since Windows needs to be re-activated for every new mobo (now CPU upgrade == new mobo, since soldered on). OEM Windows customers will be out of luck.

Hopefully having the plug-in module attach to another board would prevent the user from having to buy another OEM Windows License.

 

[Charles Kozierok]

I think this is bad thing. Not so much to the lack of upgradeability - I think most people, even enthusiasts save for a few die-hard, never or rarely do cpu upgrades.

Much worse is that I think a lot of flexibility will be lost. The ability to combine cpu+mb freely gives the user a lot more choices than if limited to those chosen by the mb manufacturers.

I agree.

I think there is too much focus on the benefits of greater integration, and not enough emphasis on the costs and drawbacks.

A return to soldered CPUs benefits Intel, not consumers.

 

[bononos]

It sounds like you are referring to something like this:
........

Hopefully having the plug-in module attach to another board would prevent the user from having to buy another OEM Windows License.

Or maybe it would spawn local tech shops who can fix boards with soldered on components, fix your apple devices, unlock phones etc.

 

[VirtualLarry]

unlock phones etc.

Speaking of unlocking phones, rooting phones, and the like - how much longer before our desktop PCs (if they survive that long in current form-factors) have to be "rooted" to be allowed to install our own software (or free software), because they are locked down by the mfg, and users are no longer given Admin privs to their own machines, and all software has to be downloaded from an "App Store", and that is the only channel normal software is available.

Heck, Windows 8 is already a very dangerous step in that direction.

 

[Idontcare]

Or maybe it would spawn local tech shops who can fix boards with soldered on components, fix your apple devices, unlock phones etc.

I agree and can appreciate your "glass is half-full" viewpoint here. Progress need not be feared.

Humans are funny though because we are inherently risk-averse animals, Mother Nature saw to that, and we perceive change as being negative until we are proven otherwise by Father Time himself.

Personally, when it comes to technology I don't fear a tomorrow that stands to look nothing like today, I fear a tomorrow that would.

 

[Zodiark1593]

Speaking of unlocking phones, rooting phones, and the like - how much longer before our desktop PCs (if they survive that long in current form-factors) have to be "rooted" to be allowed to install our own software (or free software), because they are locked down by the mfg, and users are no longer given Admin privs to their own machines, and all software has to be downloaded from an "App Store", and that is the only channel normal software is available.

Heck, Windows 8 is already a very dangerous step in that direction.

Gee, sounds like the dream for the movie/music industry, government, big software companies, law enforcement, etc, etc, etc.

In fact, I believe the whole tablet thing is a conspiracy to get the mainstream to embrace the App Store model. (I'm actually serious about that :ninja

edit: Can we get a Tin Foil Hat smiley please?

 

[Charles Kozierok]

I agree and can appreciate your "glass is half-full" viewpoint here. Progress need not be feared.

I don't fear progress -- I just don't see any here.

Choice and flexibility are one of the primary strengths of the overall PC platform. Giving them up makes sense when they are traded off against some other tangible benefits, such as size, weight, form factor or power efficiency.

But what exactly is being gained here, from the customer's perspective?

 

[Idontcare]

But what exactly is being gained here, from the customer's perspective?

Hardware that works, lower cost, higher performance.

The evolution has always been towards provided integrated solutions which are engineered to be more robust and less prone to user-created assembly errors

Soldered products provide better signal integrity leading to better timings and higher performance.

Likewise the process would be machine automated which results in lower manufacturing costs that can translate into lower retail prices.

DIY kit will likely always exist in one form or another. You can still go build yourself a ham radio or telegraph if you like despite those industries having evolved into offering very different products and demographics.

In the end this just isn't the kind of stuff I worry about. For starters, worrying about it won't change a damn thing. And secondly I don't believe it portends the demise of our coveted DIY enthusiast segment as suggested in this thread and others like it. It will just be something different, and different is good in my book.

 

[nitromullet]

I don't believe it portends the demise of our coveted DIY enthusiast segment as suggested in this thread and others like it. It will just be something different, and different is good in my book.

Agreed. I think some people are selling manufacturers like Asus and Gigabyte short. Right not between the two if them there are 37 different models of Z77 motherboards to choose from on newegg. Some are budget offerings, but the vast majority are in the $100-200 range which is squarely in hobbyist/enthusiast territory.

I think if the cpu comes soldiered to the motherboard we'll see triple the amount of options available because you'll have just as many motherboard options, but with the choice of low, mid, and high end processors. Just because the desktop is not a huge growth area to a goliath like Intel doesn't mean there isn't money to be made and manufacturers who will be more than happy to cater to this market segment.

 

[cbn]

I think if the cpu comes soldiered to the motherboard we'll see triple the amount of options available because you'll have just as many motherboard options, but with the choice of low, mid, and high end processors.

I think there will probably be less mobo options. Having triple the number of mainboards probably will be too much inventory to carry....plus there is the issue of VRMs being integrated onto future SOCs (eliminating an enthusiast mobo selling point).

Still, If Intel can sell a CPU AIB (with other gear on it) that bypasses the need to buy another copy of OEM Windows....that could be big IMO for upgraders of the future. (Even more so if they could eventually extend the Compute AIBs to laptops.)

 

[KriB]

I think if the cpu comes soldiered to the motherboard we'll see triple the amount of options available because you'll have just as many motherboard options, but with the choice of low, mid, and high end processors. Just because the desktop is not a huge growth area to a goliath like Intel doesn't mean there isn't money to be made and manufacturers who will be more than happy to cater to this market segment.

And how can this make it cheaper for the end user, I wonder...?
That means much lower volumes for the production lines. Less volume, higher price pr item...

 

[AdamK47]

Looks like I'll have to move over to server derived processors then... oh, wait.

 

[mrmt]

Guys,

What features are genuinely controlled by the motherboard today and how motherboard can make a difference for future SoC designs? Or in business parlance, how is the motherboard adding value today and how it is going to do that in the future when more features are going to be bound to the SoC?

What I see for the motherboard market is that once Intel migrates to SoC (and AMD is going down in the same route) there won't be too much they can do to differentiate their products.

In such environment, ask yourselves, would you sink your own money to fight on this cutthroat market?

 

[ShintaiDK]

Seems its the FCPGA socket that goes out. Todays FCPGA988 variant.

 

[NTMBK]

Seems its the FCPGA socket that goes out. Todays FCPGA988 variant.

Those too, sure.

 

[ShintaiDK]

Those too, sure.

PGA only, not LGA.

 

[bononos]

I agree and can appreciate your "glass is half-full" viewpoint here. Progress need not be feared.

Humans are funny though because we are inherently risk-averse animals, Mother Nature saw to that, and we perceive change as being negative until we are proven otherwise by Father Time himself.

Personally, when it comes to technology I don't fear a tomorrow that stands to look nothing like today, I fear a tomorrow that would.

I must've given you the wrong impression. Its going to be one bright spot in an otherwise desolate landscape and I don't like it at all.

 

[ShintaiDK]

Looks like LGA1150 socket for Haswell and Broadwell to me.

 

[NTMBK]

Looks like LGA1150 socket for Haswell and Broadwell to me.

It only says "2014" CPUs, not necessarily Broadwell; it may be referring to the last of the Haswell release. (Remember, Ivy Bridge Celerons won't be out until Q1 2013.) Hopefully I'm wrong, though.

 

[Charles Kozierok]

Hardware that works, lower cost, higher performance.

From the typical customer's perspective, these are solutions without problems. Performance is already largely a non-starter, reliability is pretty darned good, and the differential in cost will be minimal. In fact, to the degree that we move more and more towards Intel monopolizing everything, we could see end cost increase -- it's not like making everything soldered in has led to great value on the Apple side, for example.

In the end this just isn't the kind of stuff I worry about. For starters, worrying about it won't change a damn thing. And secondly I don't believe it portends the demise of our coveted DIY enthusiast segment as suggested in this thread and others like it. It will just be something different, and different is good in my book.

I see the issue as being beyond just the impact on the enthusiast market, which I've always seen as mostly secondary. It's about having choice, even for end users. The more tightly integrated everything is, the fewer options there are available for customizing computers to the needs of the user. And I see that as a step backwards.

 

[KingFatty]

Well, I think we all are already OK with not having the choice of changing the GPU and RAM that is soldered onto our video cards. We just think of it differently, and that it's OK to simply buy another video card when it's time to upgrade.

I could envision the same mentality toward the motherboard/CPU/RAM combo, just being an integrated unit like the video card. It's a good parallel because the costs can be about the same for both the video card and the mobo/CPU/RAM.

So why do we accept integrated video card, but no integrated mobo/CPU/RAM? Aren't the arguments about choice the same when it comes to video cards? I want to be able to upgrade my GPU and video card ram separately, but that's not how things work for video cards, and we are happy with it. We just blow another $300-$500 on a new video card every 2 years and that's ok? Look at all the choices in combinations of GPU/RAM/cooler for video cards, couldn't the motherboard/RAM/CPU be the same way? Same model, same price, just a mental block against it?