feralkid
Lifer
- Jan 28, 2002
- 16,867
- 4,979
- 136
Try reading your own post.
You said "rape victims who were assaulted while black out drunk must share at least a small amount of blame."
Try reading your own post.
You said "rape victims who were assaulted while black out drunk must share at least a small amount of blame."
waggy
No Lifer
- Dec 14, 2000
- 68,143
- 10
- 81
I'm sorry, in real life, rape victims who were assaulted while black out drunk must share at least a small amount of blame.
oh. seems like people are..
waggy
No Lifer
- Dec 14, 2000
- 68,143
- 10
- 81
a guy who worked with when i was 17 or so told me a story once about his drinking. he won $4000 and went to get a drink to celebrate. he woke up about 3 days latter in a hospital down in Baton rogue. He said he didn't remember anything after ordering a beer, shot and cheeseburger at the bar.
While the story seems outrageous i do believe him. I know he has had 3 DUI's and would often be drunk.
destrekor
Lifer
- Nov 18, 2005
- 28,799
- 359
- 126
And that's exactly, and the only thing, I am actually pointing out here for the other situation.
It's all about holding a certain level of self-blame, because you put yourself into a situation that you should not have created. Fault and blame in this case are very different. Fault is used for punishment, and nothing changes here imho - the attacker receives full penalty regardless.
But the victim, if they let themselves get blackout drunk, should have it weigh on their conscience. Why? Because you shouldn't get blackout drunk when surrounded by other humans - it's really just a bad idea all around.
That's ultimate what that original ad was really about. And my wording beforehand may have been a little vague... nobody should be putting any blame or fault on the victim... but the victim, if they created the opportunity by getting blackout drunk and leaving their body vulnerable and unguarded, it should weigh on their mind, a "personal level of blame" or whatever... because as an animal, we should NEVER willingly leave our body vulnerable in uncertain environments. That's just a bad approach to life (and a sign you've grown way too complacent, comfortable, ignorant, and naive).
clamum
Lifer
- Feb 13, 2003
- 26,256
- 406
- 126
destrekor
Lifer
- Nov 18, 2005
- 28,799
- 359
- 126
read my latest post / reply to zin
blame and fault are different animals.
Everybody seems caught up in a black/white mentality... it's not that simple I'm afraid. Things are rarely This or That if you actually want to consider all angles.
feralkid
Lifer
- Jan 28, 2002
- 16,867
- 4,979
- 136
waggy
No Lifer
- Dec 14, 2000
- 68,143
- 10
- 81
damn. thats..just sad.
A women goes to the party for the same reason most guys go. to have fun and drink IF she passes out and gets raped it is no way her fault or is she to blame at all. Only thing she has fault or blame for is getting drunk anything that happened from that is NOT HER FAULT.
She did not force a guy to rape her. I do think it says alot about a person who is willing to fault the girl in this.
Blame is the wrong word. It's not the victim's fault ever if they get raped, just like it's not my fault if I get stabbed for my wallet while walking down the street. (that didn't happen, just an example)
When bad things happen to you, though, you often look for things you could have done differently to prevent the action. It's natural - you can't control others' behavior, but you can modify your own to avoid others' bad intentions.
This ad probably meant to do the above, but came off as blaming the victim for creating the opportunity. Creating an opportunity doesn't make something your fault. An opportunity doesn't obligate someone to act upon it. Someone else makes that choice, and in the case of violent crime, makes it the opportunist's (and not the victim's) fault, 100%.
Still, it's not a bad idea to teach our kids that there are bad people in this world and we shouldn't put ourselves in a position to be their victim. That's not the same as saying, "It's your fault you got raped because you got blackout drunk." That implies you're fair game in that circumstance, which is 100% not true.
Look, all of us have probably put ourselves in some bad spots. If you haven't, you probably have spent your entire life in your parents' basement, because no one who lives their life makes good decisions 100% of the time. The lesson is to not do it, but if you do, it doesn't put you at fault. There's no such thing as contributory negligence to a crime.
When bad things happen to you, though, you often look for things you could have done differently to prevent the action. It's natural - you can't control others' behavior, but you can modify your own to avoid others' bad intentions.
This ad probably meant to do the above, but came off as blaming the victim for creating the opportunity. Creating an opportunity doesn't make something your fault. An opportunity doesn't obligate someone to act upon it. Someone else makes that choice, and in the case of violent crime, makes it the opportunist's (and not the victim's) fault, 100%.
Still, it's not a bad idea to teach our kids that there are bad people in this world and we shouldn't put ourselves in a position to be their victim. That's not the same as saying, "It's your fault you got raped because you got blackout drunk." That implies you're fair game in that circumstance, which is 100% not true.
Look, all of us have probably put ourselves in some bad spots. If you haven't, you probably have spent your entire life in your parents' basement, because no one who lives their life makes good decisions 100% of the time. The lesson is to not do it, but if you do, it doesn't put you at fault. There's no such thing as contributory negligence to a crime.
William Gaatjes
Lifer
- May 11, 2008
- 22,566
- 1,472
- 126
He is perhaps talking about the grey zone ?
Perspective :
Suppose, some girl with a sexy short skirt get black out drunk and takes of her panties for whatever reason. Later on, she ends up dancing and making some popular sexy dance moves. Attracts some guys who also had a very lot to drink. She feels sexy and the guys assume they can go for it since these guys are drunk as well and all end up in a more private setting. The problem, she never had the intention to have sex with either 1 or all guys. The guys are to blame, no doubt about that but the girl has some responsibility here as well.
Now i fully agree with that as long as a woman does not give permission, a man has no right to touch her. Even when she is flirting, as long as she did not give permission, no touching. And even when she gives permission, there are boundaries on how far a man can go in private or public. And i fully agree that stealing is wrong and everything. But there are especially in situations where there is sexual tension grey zones that both parties must keep in mind.
To come back to the example :
The problem in this scenario is that both parties can no longer be trusted since both are drunk. When people get drunk, these things happen. Thus who should be the most wise ? The girl or the man ? I say both have equal responsibility, but reality predicts that a girl/ woman is much more safe if she is not drunk unless with people who she can trust that will not take advantage of her. There are not a lot of men, boys out there who would not take the chance for sex . Especially with a "hot" drunk lady friend.
Number1
Diamond Member
- Feb 24, 2006
- 7,881
- 549
- 126
If somebody is passed out drunk and gets his wallet stolen, is it his fault?
Maybe not. But he would not have lost his wallet had he stayed sober.
Would you have any pity for him?
Probably not.
As a mater of fact he would be made fun of big time with a sad story like this in here.
Moral of the story, if you don't want to be raped while passed out drunk, not drinking and passing out drunk will go a long way toward preventing it.
Maybe not. But he would not have lost his wallet had he stayed sober.
Would you have any pity for him?
Probably not.
As a mater of fact he would be made fun of big time with a sad story like this in here.
Moral of the story, if you don't want to be raped while passed out drunk, not drinking and passing out drunk will go a long way toward preventing it.
feralkid
Lifer
- Jan 28, 2002
- 16,867
- 4,979
- 136
William Gaatjes
Lifer
- May 11, 2008
- 22,566
- 1,472
- 126
Born2bwire
Diamond Member
- Oct 28, 2005
- 9,840
- 6
- 71
The point is that people can take reasonable precautions to try and protect themselves. In the same way that you wouldn't want to be walking alone in the middle of the night in some parts of town, you don't want to drink to the point of being incapacitated. That isn't saying that it is their fault that they become a victim, but it is just pointing out that we can all do things to decrease the likelihood that we do become victims. The ad itself is in rather poor taste, but the intended message, being that people should try to restrain their drinking to protect themselves, isn't. What makes this so difficult is being able to express this in a politically correct way.
I think sjwaste has expressed it rather well earlier.
I'd like to chime in from the womans point of view here.
First, I consider "black out drunk" and "passed out drunk" 2 different things. If you pass out, then you have no way to object or protect yourself, and if you are raped, then I do put that 100% blame on the rapist fault. They saw you were out, and they took advantage of the situation.
Now, if you are "blackout drunk", then it could be you are in a situation where you just have no idea what you are doing, yet the people around you have no way to tell. Think like the movie Hangover. Then, I feel you can't call it rape. Its possible that you may or may not have giving consent, but just because you wake up later and regret it, and know that if you were sober, you would not have said yes, doesn't mean at the time that you said "no".
First, I consider "black out drunk" and "passed out drunk" 2 different things. If you pass out, then you have no way to object or protect yourself, and if you are raped, then I do put that 100% blame on the rapist fault. They saw you were out, and they took advantage of the situation.
Now, if you are "blackout drunk", then it could be you are in a situation where you just have no idea what you are doing, yet the people around you have no way to tell. Think like the movie Hangover. Then, I feel you can't call it rape. Its possible that you may or may not have giving consent, but just because you wake up later and regret it, and know that if you were sober, you would not have said yes, doesn't mean at the time that you said "no".
Bignate603
Lifer
- Sep 5, 2000
- 13,897
- 1
- 0
I agree that in a true case of rape the victim is not at a fault. A girl that blacks out isn't asking to be raped and it's not her fault if it does happen. However, there are plenty of cases where alcohol gets involved where I wouldn't classify it as rape but people still claim it as rape.
There are plenty of occurrences where a guy and a girl are at a party, both drink heavily. They have consensual sex but the next day the girl regrets it. She says she was raped because she was drunk and wouldn't have done it when she was sober. Sorry, but if two people that were drunk have consensual sex you can't throw the blame on just one of them.
feralkid
Lifer
- Jan 28, 2002
- 16,867
- 4,979
- 136
AznAnarchy99
Lifer
- Dec 6, 2004
- 14,695
- 117
- 106
I get what you're saying and I agree with ya. Everyone else here is completely black and white when many situations are not. I know some girls who take modeling gigs off craigslist to then meet some old creepy bald guy in his apartment who wants a private shoot in his room. Although so far no rape has occured, if it did I would put some blame towards them for not seeing the situation a mile away unless they are a complete idiot. If you black out at a place you dont trust you're putting yourself in a precarious position.
HeXen
Diamond Member
- Dec 13, 2009
- 7,837
- 38
- 91
i wouldnt either but ya know, in a way they involuntarily instigate a potentially negative situation by doing such.
Doesnt of course mean they wouldnt get raped if they dressed like a slobby hobo either, but for some would be rapers, a womans attire attracts them. their level of safety decreases when doing such. women should have common sense, lack there of does bare some small amount of blame.
no
HOLY FUCK WHAT IS WRONG WITH YOU?
nothing wrong with him, it is true that women should not black out at parties. For the very reason that something bad may happen. Its a safety thing like anything else.
Likewise an unarmed white boy probably shouldnt go walking up to some black gang bangers on a ghetto street corner with money in his pocket...sorry but its true. one should avoid certain things in order to avoid potential harm. Doesnt mean your directly at fault, but doing such sets a motion of potential events, so your kinda have some blame in that you avoid common sense saftey
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GoodRevrnd
Diamond Member
- Dec 27, 2001
- 6,801
- 581
- 126
You guys picking on destrekor are idiots. It's called not putting yourself in a potentially dangerous situation. No matter what it's always completely the perpetrator's fault, but there are a myriad of things you can do to minimize your risk. It's like if you got black out drunk and were stumbling around town like a jackass and wandered down some ally you shouldn't and got mugged because you were an easy target. It's not you're "fault" you got mugged but your reduced faculties put you in a situation where you were more vulnerable to opportunists.
videogames101
Diamond Member
- Aug 24, 2005
- 6,783
- 27
- 91
Nah dude, remember, in like Sweden or somewhere, you can take back your consent after sex happens!
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