Wow. Bitcoin is almost $1,500

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Charmonium

Diamond Member
May 15, 2015
5,900
459
126
This might be of interest - https://cryptocoinspy.com/worlds-first-tokenized-hedge-fund-launches-on-stellar-blockchain/

The world’s first tokenized hedge fund has launched on the Stellar Network blockchain after raising US$1.7million in investments during its presale.

The token is Apis (APIS), managed by Apis Capital Management (ACM), and is the gateway investors use as means to access the ACM Market Neutral Volatility Strategy Fund, a proprietary volatility-based trading strategy developed by ACM.

By registering investment and purchasing tokens, buying and holding the APIS token sees investors automatically take advantage of the sophisticated fund management strategy.
 

Dr. Zaus

Lifer
Oct 16, 2008
11,762
342
126
I fail to see how selling shares via blockchain makes a hedge fund's investment strategy more compelling, but P.T. Barnum might disagree.
A hedge fund requires you to be a qualified investor to get involved. The block chain bypasses these rules and allows people who have no business in a hedge fund to invest. Same thing with bit coin and day trading commodities.
 
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DaveSimmons

Elite Member
Aug 12, 2001
40,737
668
126
A hedge fund requires you to be a qualified investor to get involved. The block chain bypasses these rules and allows people who have no business in a hedge fund to invest. Same thing with bit coin and day trading commodities.
Interesting, and possibly illegal if they're a US-based fund. P. T. Barnum definitely approves.
 
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Charmonium

Diamond Member
May 15, 2015
5,900
459
126
The article says that they've had an 80% return. I think that's over a year or two.

Anyway, I posted it to indicate the kind of acceptance that the Stellar system is getting. XLM started out at about 1/4 of the value of Ripple and now it's about 1/2.
 
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Zeze

Lifer
Mar 4, 2011
10,180
446
126
Here's Vechain concerns or 'negatives' a redditor shared. It's always good to not only read crappy echo chamber crap. That being said, I'm still holding VeChain for a long time.

  • -Most of the real value in VeChain is in the go-to-market, that they are positioning themselves as an enterprise blockchain. Unfortunately, their customer base is inscrutable and is mostly closed and private. Until we see case studies and on-record success stories everything may just be smoke and mirrors.
  • -Read up on DPOS and all the implications. You may consider it negative, maybe not.

  • -It's essentially a Chinese company and Chinese companies don't really understand B2B in western markets. In short they really need a US sales team.

  • -It's essentially a Chinese company and that means political attachment and that certain governments like the US may attempt to sanction or punish VeChains attempts to do business in their jurisdiction.

  • -Final and biggest risk: Competition outside the current crypto space. Oracle or SAP could develop (or more likely) acquire a crypto project. One that may or may not have ICO'd. They will then develop and customize it to integrate with their products. Then they'll go to market. They'll train thousands of salespeople and engineers around the world to understand and sell and implement their blockchain solution. For every 1 company VeChain meets with they will meet with 100. If this happens they'll likely use an existing licensing model. No Thor, no tokens needed. Hell, they could just sell keyed access to their blockchain api. Or even sell the software for companies to create their own blockchains. I think this will likely take a couple years, but 2-3 years tops.
 

VirtualLarry

Lifer
Aug 25, 2001
48,372
5,092
126
Slap another (RX 570) on the barbie, Dave. It's almost done!

Well, grabbed yet another RX 570, thanks to the ebay 20% sale, and then, I grabbed an open-air 6 GPU mining frame, with 4 120mm fans included, supposedly. From a US vendor.

Slowly making my way towards having a separate mining / DC rig, and then my "regular" PCs. May downsize that collection. (Got a 2700X waiting in the wings, and a tempered-glass RGB fan case too.)
 

VirtualLarry

Lifer
Aug 25, 2001
48,372
5,092
126
In other thoughts, what would you say to something, that said, "I have an offer. Spend $3000-4000 on computer parts (mostly GPUs), and earn $10/day (and likely declining) for an unknown period of time." Would you go for that?

I guess the answer lies on ebay, with the number of pre-owned mining rigs, on auction, with starting bids high enough to cover initial costs, and ZERO BIDS.
 
Mar 11, 2004
20,202
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In other thoughts, what would you say to something, that said, "I have an offer. Spend $3000-4000 on computer parts (mostly GPUs), and earn $10/day (and likely declining) for an unknown period of time." Would you go for that?

I guess the answer lies on ebay, with the number of pre-owned mining rigs, on auction, with starting bids high enough to cover initial costs, and ZERO BIDS.
Bingo. They're still pricing them like where they'd be if mining was much more viable. I think many of them are doing it to keep the stuff, thinking (or hoping) that something will happen and mining will explode again. There seems to be a more tempered move this time around (was it about 4 years ago when they were dumping stuff, but then I think that's part of it, lots of people were mad for missing out the first time, and many barely got in this time around so they're still hoping it'll happen again; and since there's multiple ones they think there's a better chance of it because there will be some new one to pop up).
 

VirtualLarry

Lifer
Aug 25, 2001
48,372
5,092
126
https://www.ebay.com/itm/8-GPU-GeForce-1070-Mining-Rig-ZEC-ZCL-MANY-OTHER-ALTS/113041689871

Maybe I stand corrected. It seems that the "new / new (other)" pre-built mining rigs do sell.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Ethereum-mining-rig-230mh-s/263745222810


Or this monster. 359MH/s, 13 RX 570/580 GPUs. Why get rid of something like this? Last ebay picture shows $3366 worth of Eth. Is that his total earnings from this rig? Is that not still profitable, with electricity taken into account? I'm still mildly profitable, though not rolling in the dough.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Ethereum-13-GPU-Mining-Rig-With-19-GPU-Motherboard-Ram-and-120GB-SSD-Bitcoin/183263477583
 
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ultimatebob

Lifer
Jul 1, 2001
22,231
865
126
Grr... exchange hacks like this are probably the biggest problem with cryptocurrency in general. It doesn't matter if the currency itself is secure, if someone can just easily steal it while it's sitting in an exchange.
 

dullard

Elite Member
May 21, 2001
22,324
690
126
Grr... exchange hacks like this are probably the biggest problem with cryptocurrency in general. It doesn't matter if the currency itself is secure, if someone can just easily steal it while it's sitting in an exchange.
I'd take even a step further back. The biggest problem with cryptocurrency in general is that instead of actually solving the problems that they complain about, they mask it. In this particular case, the issue of anonymous ownership has not been solved. Instead, layers of exchanges have been created to mask the problem.
 

Red Storm

Lifer
Oct 2, 2005
14,214
215
106
I'd take even a step further back. The biggest problem with cryptocurrency in general is that instead of actually solving the problems that they complain about, they mask it. In this particular case, the issue of anonymous ownership has not been solved. Instead, layers of exchanges have been created to mask the problem.
What is the issue of anonymous ownership?
 

dullard

Elite Member
May 21, 2001
22,324
690
126
What is the issue of anonymous ownership?
Proving that you are the owner. Suddenly the anonymity is gone.

Clear ownership is easy (we can serialize every transaction back to a specific buyer and seller even without cryptocurrency). Anonymity is easy (cash is basically this, anyone could steal a $20 bill from me and I'd have next to no way of ever proving that it was in fact my $20 bill). The combination has not yet been solved.

Yet, cryptocurrencies with exchanges exist which appear to give the illusion of anonymity while the root issue of ownership has not been solved. Until exchanges are unhackable, this is an unsolved problem. Unhackable public sites are probably impossible. So we probably need to give up the idea of anonymity for now.
 

destrekor

Lifer
Nov 18, 2005
28,715
327
126
Proving that you are the owner. Suddenly the anonymity is gone.

Clear ownership is easy (we can serialize every transaction back to a specific buyer and seller even without cryptocurrency). Anonymity is easy (cash is basically this, anyone could steal a $20 bill from me and I'd have next to no way of ever proving that it was in fact my $20 bill). The combination has not yet been solved.

Yet, cryptocurrencies with exchanges exist which appear to give the illusion of anonymity while the root issue of ownership has not been solved. Until exchanges are unhackable, this is an unsolved problem. Unhackable public sites are probably impossible. So we probably need to give up the idea of anonymity for now.
You've got me confused.
What does hacking and anonymous ownership have to do with each other?

And what problem exists when trying to combine clear ownership with anonymity? I mean, the example you give, anonymity means you can't ever prove ownership of something, unless, gasp, you out yourself and are no longer anonymous. Nothing is ever going to change that. You can be anonymous, or not.

And how is any of this a problem cryptocurrency is supposed to solve?

Technically true anonymous coins already exist, such as Monero and Zcash. I guess, in a way, you can technically prove those tokens belong to that address, and transactions can occur to and from it without ever giving up identity.

There's only an issue of unmasking your identity when you go to somehow turn that into legal fiat currency. In a crypto world, you could utilize that coin/token in any way you wish without ever having to turn give up anonymity.

But when it comes to hacks, I don't know what you are getting at. Is it the idea that your funds could be recovered? That can already happen, provided the exact original tokens are retrieved. New tokens aren't going to be generated specifically to refund you if they cannot retrieve the original ones.

Those original ones will forever be recorded as having come from a particular address, and quite simply the owner of that [temporary] address can prove it without exposing identity (digital signatures are the proof). Making for true anonymity would mean anonymous cash withdrawals.
Which.... wait a minute
This is possible right now but the costs are atrocious (bitcoin ATMs).
 

dullard

Elite Member
May 21, 2001
22,324
690
126
You've got me confused.
What does hacking and anonymous ownership have to do with each other?
That one I cannot help you with. If you don't understand it, then I don't think I have the skills to explain it. If the money is truely anonymous, then there is truely no way to prove that you were the owner and not the thief.
And how is any of this a problem cryptocurrency is supposed to solve?
Ask that of all the crypto supporters. They are the ones claiming that crypto will solve so many of these ills (while just masking the problem instead of solving them).
 

Red Storm

Lifer
Oct 2, 2005
14,214
215
106
That one I cannot help you with. If you don't understand it, then I don't think I have the skills to explain it. If the money is truely anonymous, then there is truely no way to prove that you were the owner and not the thief.

Ask that of all the crypto supporters. They are the ones claiming that crypto will solve so many of these ills (while just masking the problem instead of solving them).
One issue is people referring to "crypto" as if it's one entity. It's like the Internet, there's shitty parts, and then there's revolutionary parts that are solving true issues. Crypto is far too vague of a term nowadays.
 

dullard

Elite Member
May 21, 2001
22,324
690
126
One issue is people referring to "crypto" as if it's one entity. It's like the Internet, there's shitty parts, and then there's revolutionary parts that are solving true issues. Crypto is far too vague of a term nowadays.
I'll take another step back on that too. Cryptocurrency != blockchain. Yet those terms are usually used interchangeably. Long term, most, if not all of cryptocurrencies will be as valuable as torn Monopoly money. But blockchain has valuable and important uses.

A lot of the cause of the issue you refer to is that there are programs that interchange currencies as if they were all the same. Just mine the current most profitable currency regardless of their long term value proposition. That leads a lot of users to think that they are interchangeable.
 

DaveSimmons

Elite Member
Aug 12, 2001
40,737
668
126
That's pretty much what @DrMrLordX posted in this thread earlier this year. He basically said they were using Tether to manipulate Bitcoin and altcoin prices.
Of course it was... you didn't really think that a 300% price spike in one month was legit... did you?
It was obliviously manipulation, but it's interesting to see researchers figure out some of the details.
 

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