would you save her life? (not hypothetical, this is real)

dolph

Diamond Member
Jan 18, 2001
3,981
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my dad is a doctor, i talked to him earlier tonight when he told me this situation he currently has:

my dad has a patient who is a 23 year old illegal immigrant. she lives here (orange county, southern california), is married, and has a child born in the us so he's a citizen. until she became ill, she worked as a housekeeper, and her husband worked as well. she came to my dad with a fatal liver condition. she didn't have insurance, but a social worker thought she could get her insurance because her child is a citizen and she's a primary caregiver (MediCal, california's free low-income healthcare). so she got on a transplant list and recently got bumped up to next in line, because she'll probably die in a couple of weeks without it. today the social worker told my dad that she has a sort of MediCal insurance that only covers emergency medicine, and definitely not liver transplants. there isn't anything she can do now; she's going to die and leave her kid and husband behind.

however, my dad thinks he can do something. he thinks if he goes to the media (he thinks la times, i thought 20/20, dateline, or 60 minutes), he can make it a human interest story and get them (the news) to shame the government into letting her have the transplant. his reason for wanting to do so is this: she's a young mother. she may have been here illegaly, but she was by no means a parasite. she worked, her husband works, they're just trying to make a good life for themselves and their child. he feels that he sees many more patients who don't deserve treatment as much as she does: winos who happen to be born here and drink themselves to the brink of death, even 90 year old women who get $10,000 worth of government provided health care to extend their lives a couple of months (knowing the average effects of treatment, you can estimate those kind of times pretty accurately). but she has a real chance to live a lot longer, to still work and to raise her son. basically, to live a life someone would rather have than nothing at all. she's his patient, and doctors usually do everything they possibly can to save their patients lives.

but this is why he feels conflicted: the state can afford to pay for this one patient's transplant ($150,000 immediately, additional $150,000 post transplant), but can it afford to pay for everyone who's not on their own health insurance plan and needs one? there are about 30,000 people every year who require a liver transplant to live. that's $9,000,000,000 alone for liver transplants alone, per year. then there are bone marrow transplants, heart transplants, lung transplants, pancreas transplants... it just goes on. forget the state paying for all of the transplants, can the insurance companies even afford to pay for it (before it's brought up, i don't know how many people don't get transplants because of lack of organs, not just money)? my dad feels strongly that cases like this could be cited as precident for future cases. he's also worried that people will come from other countries in droves for free heatlh care (they already come a lot, my dad sees many, and from all over the world), and that's a financial burden that simply cannot be held currently. but as a doctor, his concern is for his patient, he's not public health administrator, he just tries to cure all of his patients and he feels terrible about this one.

so what would you do? go to a news outlet and try to save this woman's life? or say life isn't fair, and sometimes people have to die because more can be hurt later if one's life is spared?

clarification: the patient only came to my dad because she was sick. he is not a surgeon, he doesn't have a fresh supply of livers to transplant, he cannot act unilateraly and perform this operation without the support of at least 20 other people total, not counting the hospitals themselves, or post-transplant care. he does not have the ability to save her life through his own direct medical actions.
 

Ns1

No Lifer
Jun 17, 2001
55,420
1,600
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i did an essay on illegal immigration last semester and this topic came up (or something like it)

it sets a bad precedent if we do it for her and not do it for everyone.

morallly yes you should save her, but in the real world no, we just can't afford it
 

Zenmervolt

Elite member
Oct 22, 2000
24,514
36
91
The government should NOT pay for the transplant, I take issue with that aspect of this. However, were I in a position to do so, I would not be averse to appealing to the public for donations to cover her transplant. Basically, I think that it is worth trying to save her life, but it's not the responsibility of the governemnt. The appeal should be made to the private sector and not to government.

ZV
 

notfred

Lifer
Feb 12, 2001
38,241
4
0
If your dad wants to save her, he can work for free, right, since he's the doctor? That wouldn't be the whole $300,000, but it'd be a part. If your dad won't forfeit his salary for the surgery, then I don't think he really cares. It's up to the doctors and the hospital to choose what they want to do for charity, but I don't think the government should be forced to pay by the media. Rather than relying on the government, I think you have to try to rely on the generosity of medical professionals in this case.
 

WinkOsmosis

Banned
Sep 18, 2002
13,990
1
0
Take it to the media and try to get donations. Remember, this is a human being we're talking about, not some legal precident.
 

ATLien247

Diamond Member
Feb 1, 2000
4,597
0
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If it weren't for the over-inflated prices that the health care industry imposes on everything, then I don't think there would be any problem with performing these kinds of medical procedures on those who don't have adequate insurance.

Regardless of her immigration status, this woman is a contributing member of society. I think she deserves any help she can get, be it from the public or private sector.
 

dolph

Diamond Member
Jan 18, 2001
3,981
0
0
Originally posted by: notfred
If your dad wants to save her, he can work for free, right, since he's the doctor? That wouldn't be the whole $300,000, but it'd be a part. If your dad won't forfeit his salary for the surgery, then I don't think he really cares. It's up to the doctors and the hospital to choose what they want to do for charity, but I don't think the government should be forced to pay by the media. Rather than relying on the government, I think you have to try to rely on the generosity of medical professionals in this case.

that's a nice simple answer, but there's a lot more involved than 1 person in a liver transplant. if he were to do this for free (and so far he is), that would only cover $8,000 because he wouldn't be the one doing the surgery. there are quite a few other people involved in this, and 2 seperate hospitals. you're suggesting that if my dad really cared, he would forfeit 2 years of his post tax salary? this is one case out of literally hundreds he's seen where someone needed life-saving treatment they couldn't afford, and this is by far not the most dire.
 

shiner

Lifer
Jul 18, 2000
17,112
1
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Originally posted by: Zenmervolt
The government should NOT pay for the transplant, I take issue with that aspect of this. However, were I in a position to do so, I would not be averse to appealing to the public for donations to cover her transplant. Basically, I think that it is worth trying to save her life, but it's not the responsibility of the governemnt. The appeal should be made to the private sector and not to government.

ZV

Well said.

Except for the misspelling. ;)
 

PG

Diamond Member
Oct 25, 1999
3,426
44
91
If she's going to die very soon then it doesn't matter what your dad does one way or the other. Getting a liver isn't easy, and even if you are next in line a donor liver would need to be a decent match or it'll go to someone else.
 

NikPreviousAcct

No Lifer
Aug 15, 2000
52,763
1
0
A life is a life.... save it.

If your dad took the oaths that I remember reading about (and if he's a real human being with any sort of conscience), then he has the ethical obligation to save her life.

nik
 

dolph

Diamond Member
Jan 18, 2001
3,981
0
0
Originally posted by: ffmcobalt
A life is a life.... save it. If your dad took the oaths that I remember reading about (and if he's a real human being with any sort of conscience), then he has the ethical obligation to save her life. nik

read the edit
 

notfred

Lifer
Feb 12, 2001
38,241
4
0
Originally posted by: dolph
Originally posted by: notfred
If your dad wants to save her, he can work for free, right, since he's the doctor? That wouldn't be the whole $300,000, but it'd be a part. If your dad won't forfeit his salary for the surgery, then I don't think he really cares. It's up to the doctors and the hospital to choose what they want to do for charity, but I don't think the government should be forced to pay by the media. Rather than relying on the government, I think you have to try to rely on the generosity of medical professionals in this case.

that's a nice simple answer, but there's a lot more involved than 1 person in a liver transplant. if he were to do this for free (and so far he is), that would only cover $8,000 because he wouldn't be the one doing the surgery. there are quite a few other people involved in this, and 2 seperate hospitals. you're suggesting that if my dad really cared, he would forfeit 2 years of his post tax salary? this is one case out of literally hundreds he's seen where someone needed life-saving treatment they couldn't afford, and this is by far not the most dire.

No, I'm saying that if you're dad donates $8000, and the other doctors involved donate $8000, etc, the cost of the surgery will drop proportionally to the generosity of the medical staff (who are actually donating time, not money). Granted, it'd be great if the public would donate to help this woman, too, but you can't FORCE the public to donate for her, and that's why the government shouldn't pay for the surgery.

I'm not saying your dad should work the next two years for free, just that more people in medicine should be as generous as your dad. :)
 

NikPreviousAcct

No Lifer
Aug 15, 2000
52,763
1
0
Originally posted by: dolph
Originally posted by: ffmcobalt
A life is a life.... save it. If your dad took the oaths that I remember reading about (and if he's a real human being with any sort of conscience), then he has the ethical obligation to save her life. nik

read the edit

Then it's his obligation to try his best.

nik
 

Gaard

Diamond Member
Feb 17, 2002
8,911
1
0
$300,000 for a liver transplant? Sheesh...I should've gone into the medical field. ;) Seriously though, why is your dad thinking, "Maybe I can convince other people to flip the bill" instead of "Maybe I can get the others to waive the bill"?

Her citizenship shouldn't have anything to do with this decision. If I didn't have insurance and I was going to die in a couple of weeks unless I got a liver transplant would the fact that I'm an American help?
 

Nocturnal

Lifer
Jan 8, 2002
18,927
0
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sounds a lot like that movie johnny q except that it is the mother who needs the transplant and not her son.
 

Pliablemoose

Lifer
Oct 11, 1999
25,195
0
56
No.

I know folks who've had liver transplants, and their life sucks after the transplant, further, why should the state's $ be spent on an illegal alien? If she lived in Mexico, she'd die, and more than likely, that's what'll happen to her in the US.

Fact is people die, and young people with kids die, babies die, our mantra of any life @ any cost will kill us financially. None of us is getting out of here alive...

If you'd like to see California's budget hemmorage blood, you dad needs to go public.


If I were in control of health care $, though, she'd get a transplant. I'd start setting limits on "End of Life" care & divert the funds to children & treatable illnesses in folks that would live longer than a month...

 

Nitemare

Lifer
Feb 8, 2001
35,461
4
81
Sad to say it but no. I would feel morally obligated to, but this would be setting a dangerous example...the government will do free medcare for any foreigner but not for our own.

If I knew the person I might try to find a sponser for the operation
 

XZeroII

Lifer
Jun 30, 2001
12,572
0
0
ask yourself this...
If you needed a new liver (or something like that), would you think it's fair that she should get a new one for free, while you would have to either work your @@@ off for the rest of your life to pay for this (or for your insurance)? Add to this that you are a citizen and she is not. All lives deserve saving, but our country is not based off of a system that everyone is required to pay for everyone else. Basically, if you have the means to save yourself (or you family does), then you are saved. If not, then I'm sorry. Crying to the media would make me resent her because I know that I would not recieve the same treatment as her and I think that alot of people would feel the same way. Just because she is an illegal immigrant who knocked up someone here in the US doesn't mean she deserves free healthcare. It sounds cruel, but it's true. It would be descrimination against lots of people if this person got treatment from the gov't and I didn't.
 

CPA

Elite Member
Nov 19, 2001
30,322
4
0
Maybe if the health care system went back to a cash base system we wouldn't have $300,000 liver transplants.