Originally posted by: senseamp
Originally posted by: Mxylplyx
Lets not forget that Europe creates all these social programs at the expense of their own security, well not really because the U.S. provides them their security. Without a U.S. deterrent, Russia could steamroll through Europe, just as they would have 50yrs ago if we werent standing guard over your continent. If the U.S. decided to pack up and go home, you would be completely at the whim of your eastern neighbors, because living under the skirt of the U.S. for so long has made you impotent to external threats. You think you are better than us because you can sit back and enjoy the benefits of having another country at your becking call to look after you. We cant afford these grand social programs, because we are busy trying to keep order in a world European colonial powers royally fucked up. Europe hates us because they need us.
Has it occurred to you that maybe we should worry about our citizens instead of subsidizing the rest of the world's defense, drug research, manufacturing, etc. Have you asked your average American if they would rather their money be spent defending French from the Russians or taking care of Americans' needs? Other countries take care of their people first and foremost. We ignore our own problems and take care of other countries' problems, real or imagined.
Originally posted by: spidey07
Originally posted by: jackace
Actually this is the EXACT reason you need to look at statistics. Your personal experience is not even close to what is actually happening in America.
I don't think so.
Personal experience says if you want to make it in america all it takes is some education and some motivation. My best friend is a millionaire who I thought wouldn't amount to anything when we were in our early 20s, but he worked. Lazy doesn't get you anywhere and I don't know a statistic for lazy.
I get the opportunity to travel the world and speak with locals and hear other success stories. If you want it you can get it in america. But you have to work and not blame others for your problems.
Originally posted by: spidey07
Originally posted by: jackace
Actually this is the EXACT reason you need to look at statistics. Your personal experience is not even close to what is actually happening in America.
I don't think so.
Personal experience says if you want to make it in america all it takes is some education and some motivation. My best friend is a millionaire who I thought wouldn't amount to anything when we were in our early 20s, but he worked. Lazy doesn't get you anywhere and I don't know a statistic for lazy.
I get the opportunity to travel the world and speak with locals and hear other success stories. If you want it you can get it in america. But you have to work and not blame others for your problems.
Originally posted by: jackace
Originally posted by: spidey07
Originally posted by: jackace
Actually this is the EXACT reason you need to look at statistics. Your personal experience is not even close to what is actually happening in America.
I don't think so.
Personal experience says if you want to make it in america all it takes is some education and some motivation. My best friend is a millionaire who I thought wouldn't amount to anything when we were in our early 20s, but he worked. Lazy doesn't get you anywhere and I don't know a statistic for lazy.
I get the opportunity to travel the world and speak with locals and hear other success stories. If you want it you can get it in america. But you have to work and not blame others for your problems.
You are only talking about the people that made it. You can not honestly tell me you have not met people that have put in good effort and failed? Again you REALLY need to look at the statistics of employment and business ownership.
I went to college and studied Entrepreneurship. You know how many businesses fail? The numbers say atleast 60-70% fail. If you do not have family, friends or some other form of support system where do you think all those people that fail end up?
Thats right working those $9-$15 factory jobs.
If you do not come from a family with lots of money how do you afford to go to school?
Thats right working those $9-$15 factory jobs.
Originally posted by: Arkitech
Originally posted by: spidey07
Originally posted by: jackace
Actually this is the EXACT reason you need to look at statistics. Your personal experience is not even close to what is actually happening in America.
I don't think so.
Personal experience says if you want to make it in america all it takes is some education and some motivation. My best friend is a millionaire who I thought wouldn't amount to anything when we were in our early 20s, but he worked. Lazy doesn't get you anywhere and I don't know a statistic for lazy.
I get the opportunity to travel the world and speak with locals and hear other success stories. If you want it you can get it in america. But you have to work and not blame others for your problems.
I think we're all glad your friend and your other amazing co-workers, relatives, neighbors, pastors and aquaintances are able to reach incredible heights in this country with their high school diplomas and GEDs. But the reality is that millions and millions of smart, talented and hard working americans will never be able to reach a certain income level.
It amazes me you have the audacity to speak for millions of americans based on your personal experience. Who the fvck are you to tell some hard working family man or single mother that the reason they are'nt making sufficient money is because they are lazy and they don't have education or motivation. I'm really trying hard to restrain myself from calling you a couple names that probably deserve. What I'm going to do instead though is to encourage you to not judge people unless you know the full extent of their circumstances. Earning a large paycheck is not everyone's first priority in life, there are other more important things in life than making lots of money.
Originally posted by: PrinceofWands
Originally posted by: vi_edit
Originally posted by: fiksi
Originally posted by: CPA
Originally posted by: fiksi
Originally posted by: MrDudeMan
fiksi, you are an idiot. It's sad that you can't see past your own ignorance.
So i am an idiot for giving something to think? I am an idiot for giving
you real statistical data, i am an idiot who has traveled around teh world and Europe,
i am an idiot who was always in top of class?
I am an idiot because i work and get paid well, with all benefits?
Well, if it is so, then be it. Your fellow Americans here don't think that way. Perhaps they are all idiots for coming in Europe?
You didn't give any statistical data, only conjecture based on your "experiences".
BTW, how do you account for the numerous Europeans who have moved to the US? Many more, I would think than Americans who have moved to Europe?
What about minimum wages before? I gave data, which shows what minimum wage is in US, and what purchasing power it gives.
Well, most Europeans who moved to states seem to be from eastern european countries, and because almost all ppl know english- they went to states. Also,
i didn't say that doctor or top engineer doesn't have higher salary in US, he DOES.
In that respect, Europe is still lagging somewhat.
http://www.bls.gov/cps/minwage2006.htm
Less than 500,000 people are paid minimum wage. Over half of them are college aged kids or younger. It's statisically insignificiant because it's not intended to be a living wage. It's supplemental income.
There are another 1.3 million that make less than minimum wage but those are service oriented with tip compensation that isn't factored into the hourly rate. Many of those workers are making far more than the minimum once that is factored in. And my point still stands that it was never intended to be a living wage.
Let's gain some perspective here. Minimum wage here is about $8/hr. That works out to roughly 16k a year. That's about 27% of the country. 42% of Americans earn under 25k a year, which is still drastically below poverty level. 70% earn less than 50k a year, which is where we enter good middle-income living. Don't sugar coat things...most Americans earn next to nothing.
Originally posted by: Arkitech
I think we're all glad your friend and your other amazing co-workers, relatives, neighbors, pastors and aquaintances are able to reach incredible heights in this country with their high school diplomas and GEDs. But the reality is that millions and millions of smart, talented and hard working americans will never be able to reach a certain income level.
It amazes me you have the audacity to speak for millions of americans based on your personal experience. Who the fvck are you to tell some hard working family man or single mother that the reason they are'nt making sufficient money is because they are lazy and they don't have education or motivation. I'm really trying hard to restrain myself from calling you a couple names that probably deserve. What I'm going to do instead though is to encourage you to not judge people unless you know the full extent of their circumstances. Earning a large paycheck is not everyone's first priority in life, there are other more important things in life than making lots of money.
Originally posted by: spidey07
Originally posted by: Arkitech
I think we're all glad your friend and your other amazing co-workers, relatives, neighbors, pastors and aquaintances are able to reach incredible heights in this country with their high school diplomas and GEDs. But the reality is that millions and millions of smart, talented and hard working americans will never be able to reach a certain income level.
It amazes me you have the audacity to speak for millions of americans based on your personal experience. Who the fvck are you to tell some hard working family man or single mother that the reason they are'nt making sufficient money is because they are lazy and they don't have education or motivation. I'm really trying hard to restrain myself from calling you a couple names that probably deserve. What I'm going to do instead though is to encourage you to not judge people unless you know the full extent of their circumstances. Earning a large paycheck is not everyone's first priority in life, there are other more important things in life than making lots of money.
Who the fvck am I? I don't mean to offend, only to motivate. I had my low points where I learned hard and how. I never want to go to that place again where I was scraping the coin jar to get something to eat. If you want something in america it is yours to have, but you have to put in the work and never settle.
Originally posted by: spidey07
Originally posted by: Arkitech
I think we're all glad your friend and your other amazing co-workers, relatives, neighbors, pastors and aquaintances are able to reach incredible heights in this country with their high school diplomas and GEDs. But the reality is that millions and millions of smart, talented and hard working americans will never be able to reach a certain income level.
It amazes me you have the audacity to speak for millions of americans based on your personal experience. Who the fvck are you to tell some hard working family man or single mother that the reason they are'nt making sufficient money is because they are lazy and they don't have education or motivation. I'm really trying hard to restrain myself from calling you a couple names that probably deserve. What I'm going to do instead though is to encourage you to not judge people unless you know the full extent of their circumstances. Earning a large paycheck is not everyone's first priority in life, there are other more important things in life than making lots of money.
Who the fvck am I? I don't mean to offend, only to motivate. I had my low points where I learned hard and how. I never want to go to that place again where I was scraping the coin jar to get something to eat. If you want something in america it is yours to have, but you have to put in the work and never settle.
Originally posted by: jackace
No one is saying hard work and perseverance is a bad thing. What we are trying to say is with our current system some people are more successful then others. Those that are less successful should not be penalized by not being able to afford food, shelter, clothing and healthcare. If a person works a full-time job in America we should force that employer to pay the employee enough so they are not living under the poverty line.
Originally posted by: Arkitech
Originally posted by: spidey07
Originally posted by: Arkitech
I think we're all glad your friend and your other amazing co-workers, relatives, neighbors, pastors and aquaintances are able to reach incredible heights in this country with their high school diplomas and GEDs. But the reality is that millions and millions of smart, talented and hard working americans will never be able to reach a certain income level.
It amazes me you have the audacity to speak for millions of americans based on your personal experience. Who the fvck are you to tell some hard working family man or single mother that the reason they are'nt making sufficient money is because they are lazy and they don't have education or motivation. I'm really trying hard to restrain myself from calling you a couple names that probably deserve. What I'm going to do instead though is to encourage you to not judge people unless you know the full extent of their circumstances. Earning a large paycheck is not everyone's first priority in life, there are other more important things in life than making lots of money.
Who the fvck am I? I don't mean to offend, only to motivate. I had my low points where I learned hard and how. I never want to go to that place again where I was scraping the coin jar to get something to eat. If you want something in america it is yours to have, but you have to put in the work and never settle.
Again you're speaking from a very limited viewpoint. Let me give you some real life examples that I know of that explains why not every american can't just simply do things as easily as you envision them.
Example #1
Married man with 2 young children loses his job with the military. He finds out that the 20 years of mainframe exp he has is not a very marketable skill because of technological advances. He decides to take some classes to update his skills while pursuing part time work, during this time his wife develops a severe mental illness that forces her to leave work. Her insurance does'nt cover the expenses because she's no longer a company employee, so the husband must immediately find full time work with benefits to meet the family's needs. Because of this he was not able to finish his schooling and he's forced to take a lower paying job until hopefully his situation changes where he can update his skills and find better employment.
Example #2
An older man who's been retired for 7 years suffers a severe heart attack, he has a lengthy hospital stay and the medical treatment he receives is only covered up to 60%. The remaining 40% which amounts to several hundred thousand dollars must now come from his savings which him and his wife were both living on. After the man returns home from the hospital he realizes that he must enter the work force again, but until he can find a job he has to take out a mortgage on his home just to make ends meet.
Example #3
A stay at home mom with 3 children suddenly finds herself divorced and with no current job prospects. She has a BA but 11 years with no current work experience leaves her in awkward situation of trying to pay a mortgage with only very limited funds even after alimony and child support checks. She sells the home which has a 2nd mortgage and divides the meager proceeds with her ex-husband, she then moves into an apartment in a less than favorable neighborhood.
I could go on and on, but hopefully by now you get the picture. Not everyone is going to be in a favorable position to just go out and grab the american dream, sometimes circumstances prevent people from being able to move to a booming job market or spending months or years in school to obtain a better job.
Originally posted by: spidey07
LOL!
I took organic and biochem as electives. bring it on e-peen.
Originally posted by: spidey07
Originally posted by: jackace
No one is saying hard work and perseverance is a bad thing. What we are trying to say is with our current system some people are more successful then others. Those that are less successful should not be penalized by not being able to afford food, shelter, clothing and healthcare. If a person works a full-time job in America we should force that employer to pay the employee enough so they are not living under the poverty line.
We're just going to have to agree to disasgree then. :beer:
There are plenty of already in place programs (federal and civil) to address what you have brought up.
Originally posted by: Arkitech
Again you're speaking from a very limited viewpoint. Let me give you some real life examples that I know of that explains why not every american can't just simply do things as easily as you envision them.
Example #1
Married man with 2 young children loses his job with the military. He finds out that the 20 years of mainframe exp he has is not a very marketable skill because of technological advances. He decides to take some classes to update his skills while pursuing part time work, during this time his wife develops a severe mental illness that forces her to leave work. Her insurance does'nt cover the expenses because she's no longer a company employee, so the husband must immediately find full time work with benefits to meet the family's needs. Because of this he was not able to finish his schooling and he's forced to take a lower paying job until hopefully his situation changes where he can update his skills and find better employment.
---------------answer-----------------
So by sitting on his ass for 20 years it is somehow somebody else's fault that his skills are no longer marketable? "her insurance" was available to her via COBRA and she should have looked at mental coverage before accepting the plan or else choose her own plan. This is what I'm talking about - blamin others for poor decisions.
Example #2
An older man who's been retired for 7 years suffers a severe heart attack, he has a lengthy hospital stay and the medical treatment he receives is only covered up to 60%. The remaining 40% which amounts to several hundred thousand dollars must now come from his savings which him and his wife were both living on. After the man returns home from the hospital he realizes that he must enter the work force again, but until he can find a job he has to take out a mortgage on his home just to make ends meet.
--------answer-------------
why was he so underinsured as an older man? Why did he choose this path of ruin?
Example #3
A stay at home mom with 3 children suddenly finds herself divorced and with no current job prospects. She has a BA but 11 years with no current work experience leaves her in awkward situation of trying to pay a mortgage with only very limited funds even after alimony and child support checks. She sells the home which has a 2nd mortgage and divides the meager proceeds with her ex-husband, she then moves into an apartment in a less than favorable neighborhood.
--------------answer---------------
She's already getting a paycheck via ex-husband. Get her butt out to find a jobby-job.
I could go on and on, but hopefully by now you get the picture. Not everyone is going to be in a favorable position to just go out and grab the american dream, sometimes circumstances prevent people from being able to move to a booming job market or spending months or years in school to obtain a better job.
Originally posted by: davestar
Originally posted by: slsmnaz
Originally posted by: NeoV
I love how so few Americans are willing to concede that anything outside of our country is better.
I don't agree with many of the points the op made, but -
health care benefits
maternity leave
gun control
Are three HUGE areas that most of Europe has a giant advantage over the United States in.
You are seriously saying gun control is a positive?
if gun control leads to lower murder rates, than yes - it's positive.
Originally posted by: spidey07
Originally posted by: Arkitech
Again you're speaking from a very limited viewpoint. Let me give you some real life examples that I know of that explains why not every american can't just simply do things as easily as you envision them.
Example #1
Married man with 2 young children loses his job with the military. He finds out that the 20 years of mainframe exp he has is not a very marketable skill because of technological advances. He decides to take some classes to update his skills while pursuing part time work, during this time his wife develops a severe mental illness that forces her to leave work. Her insurance does'nt cover the expenses because she's no longer a company employee, so the husband must immediately find full time work with benefits to meet the family's needs. Because of this he was not able to finish his schooling and he's forced to take a lower paying job until hopefully his situation changes where he can update his skills and find better employment.
---------------answer-----------------
So by sitting on his ass for 20 years it is somehow somebody else's fault that his skills are no longer marketable? "her insurance" was available to her via COBRA and she should have looked at mental coverage before accepting the plan or else choose her own plan. This is what I'm talking about - blamin others for poor decisions.
Example #2
An older man who's been retired for 7 years suffers a severe heart attack, he has a lengthy hospital stay and the medical treatment he receives is only covered up to 60%. The remaining 40% which amounts to several hundred thousand dollars must now come from his savings which him and his wife were both living on. After the man returns home from the hospital he realizes that he must enter the work force again, but until he can find a job he has to take out a mortgage on his home just to make ends meet.
--------answer-------------
why was he so underinsured as an older man? Why did he choose this path of ruin?
Example #3
A stay at home mom with 3 children suddenly finds herself divorced and with no current job prospects. She has a BA but 11 years with no current work experience leaves her in awkward situation of trying to pay a mortgage with only very limited funds even after alimony and child support checks. She sells the home which has a 2nd mortgage and divides the meager proceeds with her ex-husband, she then moves into an apartment in a less than favorable neighborhood.
--------------answer---------------
She's already getting a paycheck via ex-husband. Get her butt out to find a jobby-job.
I could go on and on, but hopefully by now you get the picture. Not everyone is going to be in a favorable position to just go out and grab the american dream, sometimes circumstances prevent people from being able to move to a booming job market or spending months or years in school to obtain a better job.
See my comments below your quotes. I seriously think life skills should be taught in high school.
Originally posted by: spidey07
Originally posted by: Arkitech
Again you're speaking from a very limited viewpoint. Let me give you some real life examples that I know of that explains why not every american can't just simply do things as easily as you envision them.
Example #1
Married man with 2 young children loses his job with the military. He finds out that the 20 years of mainframe exp he has is not a very marketable skill because of technological advances. He decides to take some classes to update his skills while pursuing part time work, during this time his wife develops a severe mental illness that forces her to leave work. Her insurance does'nt cover the expenses because she's no longer a company employee, so the husband must immediately find full time work with benefits to meet the family's needs. Because of this he was not able to finish his schooling and he's forced to take a lower paying job until hopefully his situation changes where he can update his skills and find better employment.
---------------answer-----------------
So by sitting on his ass for 20 years it is somehow somebody else's fault that his skills are no longer marketable? "her insurance" was available to her via COBRA and she should have looked at mental coverage before accepting the plan or else choose her own plan. This is what I'm talking about - blamin others for poor decisions.
Example #2
An older man who's been retired for 7 years suffers a severe heart attack, he has a lengthy hospital stay and the medical treatment he receives is only covered up to 60%. The remaining 40% which amounts to several hundred thousand dollars must now come from his savings which him and his wife were both living on. After the man returns home from the hospital he realizes that he must enter the work force again, but until he can find a job he has to take out a mortgage on his home just to make ends meet.
--------answer-------------
why was he so underinsured as an older man? Why did he choose this path of ruin?
Example #3
A stay at home mom with 3 children suddenly finds herself divorced and with no current job prospects. She has a BA but 11 years with no current work experience leaves her in awkward situation of trying to pay a mortgage with only very limited funds even after alimony and child support checks. She sells the home which has a 2nd mortgage and divides the meager proceeds with her ex-husband, she then moves into an apartment in a less than favorable neighborhood.
--------------answer---------------
She's already getting a paycheck via ex-husband. Get her butt out to find a jobby-job.
I could go on and on, but hopefully by now you get the picture. Not everyone is going to be in a favorable position to just go out and grab the american dream, sometimes circumstances prevent people from being able to move to a booming job market or spending months or years in school to obtain a better job.
See my comments below your quotes. I seriously think life skills should be taught in high school.
Originally posted by: HamSupLo
Everyone who thinks that their health insurance will pay for their care should look at the details in their policy very carefully. Yeah, there are low copayments and deductibles, but god forbid if you have a major illness. Most insurance does not cover 100% of the costs. Your responsibility of 20 - 30% of a large hospital bill can bankrupt you. That's what the average middle class American is facing with our healthcare system.
Originally posted by: ElFenix
by and large you can't get rich working for someone else. maybe if you rise up into upper management at a big company you can do it. but that's not how much wealthy people do it. if you're unwilling to take the risk of striking out on your own (and i very much doubt the magnitude of the risk, as working for the man only offers the illusion of security, imho), you've got only yourself to blame.
Originally posted by: vi_edit
Originally posted by: PrinceofWands
Originally posted by: vi_edit
Originally posted by: fiksi
Originally posted by: CPA
Originally posted by: fiksi
Originally posted by: MrDudeMan
fiksi, you are an idiot. It's sad that you can't see past your own ignorance.
So i am an idiot for giving something to think? I am an idiot for giving
you real statistical data, i am an idiot who has traveled around teh world and Europe,
i am an idiot who was always in top of class?
I am an idiot because i work and get paid well, with all benefits?
Well, if it is so, then be it. Your fellow Americans here don't think that way. Perhaps they are all idiots for coming in Europe?
You didn't give any statistical data, only conjecture based on your "experiences".
BTW, how do you account for the numerous Europeans who have moved to the US? Many more, I would think than Americans who have moved to Europe?
What about minimum wages before? I gave data, which shows what minimum wage is in US, and what purchasing power it gives.
Well, most Europeans who moved to states seem to be from eastern european countries, and because almost all ppl know english- they went to states. Also,
i didn't say that doctor or top engineer doesn't have higher salary in US, he DOES.
In that respect, Europe is still lagging somewhat.
http://www.bls.gov/cps/minwage2006.htm
Less than 500,000 people are paid minimum wage. Over half of them are college aged kids or younger. It's statisically insignificiant because it's not intended to be a living wage. It's supplemental income.
There are another 1.3 million that make less than minimum wage but those are service oriented with tip compensation that isn't factored into the hourly rate. Many of those workers are making far more than the minimum once that is factored in. And my point still stands that it was never intended to be a living wage.
Let's gain some perspective here. Minimum wage here is about $8/hr. That works out to roughly 16k a year. That's about 27% of the country. 42% of Americans earn under 25k a year, which is still drastically below poverty level. 70% earn less than 50k a year, which is where we enter good middle-income living. Don't sugar coat things...most Americans earn next to nothing.
I'll consider your perspective when you actually put some statistics and credibility to the numbers you sling around.
Here's the average weekly wage break down by the largest counties in the state of Washington: http://www.bls.gov/ro9/qcewwa.htm
Those 9 counties contributed to make up over 80% of the population of the state. The 9th lowest paid average weekly wage was 516 a week. That's around $26,000 if you factor in 50 working weeks a year. The federal poverty level is just under $20k for a family of 4. Think about that - 80% of the measured state makes over the poverty level for a single income earner.
If you really want to look things over by state here's a breakdown of average wages by state: http://www.bls.gov/cew/state2002.txt (it's from 2002 so it's likely done nothing but gone up).
I understand that these are averages and that numbers can get muddled up by having one millionare in there blowing up the average, but I've failed trying to find a break down by percentages. Meaning, I can't find a table that breaks down wages in actual ratios to the working base (aka 30% of the working force makes $XX.XX-$YY.YY per hour)
The closest I could find was this table that broke it out by numbers of workers in a given job role and broke out the wages: http://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes_nat.htm
Keep in mind that we only have ~130 million actually employed workers that are covered in these statistics. We are excluding children, retired people, stay at home parents, disabled, and unemployed.
My numbers simply do not add up to yours.
Originally posted by: Arkitech
ok, before I can even attempt to reason with you we need to address your problems. From the many comments you've made in this thread, you clearly believe that it's unacceptable for people to need help from others for any reason what so ever. Lets just say that the above comments you made to my examples were 100% valid, you still have'nt accounted for the fact that people are'nt perfect. In a perfect world with perfect people we would be able to make decisions now that would work out perfectly for us 15-20 years down the line. But the reality is that even smart, educated people can make poor choices. Even talented, hardworking individuals can find themselves in bad situations that they did'nt create and can't control.
Its so easy to pick someone else's life apart and point out what they should or should'nt have done, but I guarantee that even you will one day find yourself in a predicament where you'll need someone's assistance. That assistance may not be monetary but you'll still need to suck up someone else's resources whether its time or some other form of commodity due to your ignorance or negligence. If you're as smart as you think you are you'll log off the computer tonight and examine your personal motivations and feelings towards other people. Wealth and power are not valid qualities of a great man, understanding and compassion are.
