work/life balance and security in Europe and US

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zinfamous

No Lifer
Jul 12, 2006
111,125
30,076
146
Originally posted by: senseamp
Originally posted by: Mxylplyx
Lets not forget that Europe creates all these social programs at the expense of their own security, well not really because the U.S. provides them their security. Without a U.S. deterrent, Russia could steamroll through Europe, just as they would have 50yrs ago if we werent standing guard over your continent. If the U.S. decided to pack up and go home, you would be completely at the whim of your eastern neighbors, because living under the skirt of the U.S. for so long has made you impotent to external threats. You think you are better than us because you can sit back and enjoy the benefits of having another country at your becking call to look after you. We cant afford these grand social programs, because we are busy trying to keep order in a world European colonial powers royally fucked up. Europe hates us because they need us.

Has it occurred to you that maybe we should worry about our citizens instead of subsidizing the rest of the world's defense, drug research, manufacturing, etc. Have you asked your average American if they would rather their money be spent defending French from the Russians or taking care of Americans' needs? Other countries take care of their people first and foremost. We ignore our own problems and take care of other countries' problems, real or imagined.


are you aware that foreign aid represents 1% of our federal budget?
 

Arkitech

Diamond Member
Apr 13, 2000
8,356
3
76
Originally posted by: spidey07
Originally posted by: jackace
Actually this is the EXACT reason you need to look at statistics. Your personal experience is not even close to what is actually happening in America.

I don't think so.

Personal experience says if you want to make it in america all it takes is some education and some motivation. My best friend is a millionaire who I thought wouldn't amount to anything when we were in our early 20s, but he worked. Lazy doesn't get you anywhere and I don't know a statistic for lazy.

I get the opportunity to travel the world and speak with locals and hear other success stories. If you want it you can get it in america. But you have to work and not blame others for your problems.

I think we're all glad your friend and your other amazing co-workers, relatives, neighbors, pastors and aquaintances are able to reach incredible heights in this country with their high school diplomas and GEDs. But the reality is that millions and millions of smart, talented and hard working americans will never be able to reach a certain income level.

It amazes me you have the audacity to speak for millions of americans based on your personal experience. Who the fvck are you to tell some hard working family man or single mother that the reason they are'nt making sufficient money is because they are lazy and they don't have education or motivation. I'm really trying hard to restrain myself from calling you a couple names that probably deserve. What I'm going to do instead though is to encourage you to not judge people unless you know the full extent of their circumstances. Earning a large paycheck is not everyone's first priority in life, there are other more important things in life than making lots of money.
 

jackace

Golden Member
Oct 6, 2004
1,307
0
0
Originally posted by: spidey07
Originally posted by: jackace
Actually this is the EXACT reason you need to look at statistics. Your personal experience is not even close to what is actually happening in America.

I don't think so.

Personal experience says if you want to make it in america all it takes is some education and some motivation. My best friend is a millionaire who I thought wouldn't amount to anything when we were in our early 20s, but he worked. Lazy doesn't get you anywhere and I don't know a statistic for lazy.

I get the opportunity to travel the world and speak with locals and hear other success stories. If you want it you can get it in america. But you have to work and not blame others for your problems.

You are only talking about the people that made it. You can not honestly tell me you have not met people that have put in good effort and failed? Again you REALLY need to look at the statistics of employment and business ownership.

I went to college and studied Entrepreneurship. You know how many businesses fail? The numbers say atleast 60-70% fail. If you do not have family, friends or some other form of support system where do you think all those people that fail end up?

Thats right working those $9-$15 factory jobs.

If you do not come from a family with lots of money how do you afford to go to school?

Thats right working those $9-$15 factory jobs.
 

Arkitech

Diamond Member
Apr 13, 2000
8,356
3
76
Originally posted by: jackace
Originally posted by: spidey07
Originally posted by: jackace
Actually this is the EXACT reason you need to look at statistics. Your personal experience is not even close to what is actually happening in America.

I don't think so.

Personal experience says if you want to make it in america all it takes is some education and some motivation. My best friend is a millionaire who I thought wouldn't amount to anything when we were in our early 20s, but he worked. Lazy doesn't get you anywhere and I don't know a statistic for lazy.

I get the opportunity to travel the world and speak with locals and hear other success stories. If you want it you can get it in america. But you have to work and not blame others for your problems.

You are only talking about the people that made it. You can not honestly tell me you have not met people that have put in good effort and failed? Again you REALLY need to look at the statistics of employment and business ownership.

I went to college and studied Entrepreneurship. You know how many businesses fail? The numbers say atleast 60-70% fail. If you do not have family, friends or some other form of support system where do you think all those people that fail end up?

Thats right working those $9-$15 factory jobs.

If you do not come from a family with lots of money how do you afford to go to school?

Thats right working those $9-$15 factory jobs.


my personal experience tells me don't expect a sensible answer from Spidey, critical thinking is obviously not his strong point.
 

jackace

Golden Member
Oct 6, 2004
1,307
0
0
Originally posted by: Arkitech
Originally posted by: spidey07
Originally posted by: jackace
Actually this is the EXACT reason you need to look at statistics. Your personal experience is not even close to what is actually happening in America.

I don't think so.

Personal experience says if you want to make it in america all it takes is some education and some motivation. My best friend is a millionaire who I thought wouldn't amount to anything when we were in our early 20s, but he worked. Lazy doesn't get you anywhere and I don't know a statistic for lazy.

I get the opportunity to travel the world and speak with locals and hear other success stories. If you want it you can get it in america. But you have to work and not blame others for your problems.

I think we're all glad your friend and your other amazing co-workers, relatives, neighbors, pastors and aquaintances are able to reach incredible heights in this country with their high school diplomas and GEDs. But the reality is that millions and millions of smart, talented and hard working americans will never be able to reach a certain income level.

It amazes me you have the audacity to speak for millions of americans based on your personal experience. Who the fvck are you to tell some hard working family man or single mother that the reason they are'nt making sufficient money is because they are lazy and they don't have education or motivation. I'm really trying hard to restrain myself from calling you a couple names that probably deserve. What I'm going to do instead though is to encourage you to not judge people unless you know the full extent of their circumstances. Earning a large paycheck is not everyone's first priority in life, there are other more important things in life than making lots of money.

I agree with the Bold part. Those same people should be able to work a full-time job for a well respected company and make enough money to support themselves and their family. They won't get rich, but they won't need government aide to support their kids.
 

vi edit

Elite Member
Super Moderator
Oct 28, 1999
62,483
8,344
126
Originally posted by: PrinceofWands
Originally posted by: vi_edit
Originally posted by: fiksi
Originally posted by: CPA
Originally posted by: fiksi
Originally posted by: MrDudeMan
fiksi, you are an idiot. It's sad that you can't see past your own ignorance.

So i am an idiot for giving something to think? I am an idiot for giving
you real statistical data, i am an idiot who has traveled around teh world and Europe,
i am an idiot who was always in top of class?

I am an idiot because i work and get paid well, with all benefits?

Well, if it is so, then be it. Your fellow Americans here don't think that way. Perhaps they are all idiots for coming in Europe?

You didn't give any statistical data, only conjecture based on your "experiences".

BTW, how do you account for the numerous Europeans who have moved to the US? Many more, I would think than Americans who have moved to Europe?


What about minimum wages before? I gave data, which shows what minimum wage is in US, and what purchasing power it gives.


Well, most Europeans who moved to states seem to be from eastern european countries, and because almost all ppl know english- they went to states. Also,
i didn't say that doctor or top engineer doesn't have higher salary in US, he DOES.

In that respect, Europe is still lagging somewhat.

http://www.bls.gov/cps/minwage2006.htm

Less than 500,000 people are paid minimum wage. Over half of them are college aged kids or younger. It's statisically insignificiant because it's not intended to be a living wage. It's supplemental income.

There are another 1.3 million that make less than minimum wage but those are service oriented with tip compensation that isn't factored into the hourly rate. Many of those workers are making far more than the minimum once that is factored in. And my point still stands that it was never intended to be a living wage.

Let's gain some perspective here. Minimum wage here is about $8/hr. That works out to roughly 16k a year. That's about 27% of the country. 42% of Americans earn under 25k a year, which is still drastically below poverty level. 70% earn less than 50k a year, which is where we enter good middle-income living. Don't sugar coat things...most Americans earn next to nothing.

I'll consider your perspective when you actually put some statistics and credibility to the numbers you sling around.

Here's the average weekly wage break down by the largest counties in the state of Washington: http://www.bls.gov/ro9/qcewwa.htm

Those 9 counties contributed to make up over 80% of the population of the state. The 9th lowest paid average weekly wage was 516 a week. That's around $26,000 if you factor in 50 working weeks a year. The federal poverty level is just under $20k for a family of 4. Think about that - 80% of the measured state makes over the poverty level for a single income earner.

If you really want to look things over by state here's a breakdown of average wages by state: http://www.bls.gov/cew/state2002.txt (it's from 2002 so it's likely done nothing but gone up).

I understand that these are averages and that numbers can get muddled up by having one millionare in there blowing up the average, but I've failed trying to find a break down by percentages. Meaning, I can't find a table that breaks down wages in actual ratios to the working base (aka 30% of the working force makes $XX.XX-$YY.YY per hour)

The closest I could find was this table that broke it out by numbers of workers in a given job role and broke out the wages: http://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes_nat.htm

Keep in mind that we only have ~130 million actually employed workers that are covered in these statistics. We are excluding children, retired people, stay at home parents, disabled, and unemployed.

My numbers simply do not add up to yours.
 

spidey07

No Lifer
Aug 4, 2000
65,469
5
76
Originally posted by: Arkitech

I think we're all glad your friend and your other amazing co-workers, relatives, neighbors, pastors and aquaintances are able to reach incredible heights in this country with their high school diplomas and GEDs. But the reality is that millions and millions of smart, talented and hard working americans will never be able to reach a certain income level.

It amazes me you have the audacity to speak for millions of americans based on your personal experience. Who the fvck are you to tell some hard working family man or single mother that the reason they are'nt making sufficient money is because they are lazy and they don't have education or motivation. I'm really trying hard to restrain myself from calling you a couple names that probably deserve. What I'm going to do instead though is to encourage you to not judge people unless you know the full extent of their circumstances. Earning a large paycheck is not everyone's first priority in life, there are other more important things in life than making lots of money.

Who the fvck am I? I don't mean to offend, only to motivate. I had my low points where I learned hard and how. I never want to go to that place again where I was scraping the coin jar to get something to eat. If you want something in america it is yours to have, but you have to put in the work and never settle.
 

jackace

Golden Member
Oct 6, 2004
1,307
0
0
Originally posted by: spidey07
Originally posted by: Arkitech

I think we're all glad your friend and your other amazing co-workers, relatives, neighbors, pastors and aquaintances are able to reach incredible heights in this country with their high school diplomas and GEDs. But the reality is that millions and millions of smart, talented and hard working americans will never be able to reach a certain income level.

It amazes me you have the audacity to speak for millions of americans based on your personal experience. Who the fvck are you to tell some hard working family man or single mother that the reason they are'nt making sufficient money is because they are lazy and they don't have education or motivation. I'm really trying hard to restrain myself from calling you a couple names that probably deserve. What I'm going to do instead though is to encourage you to not judge people unless you know the full extent of their circumstances. Earning a large paycheck is not everyone's first priority in life, there are other more important things in life than making lots of money.

Who the fvck am I? I don't mean to offend, only to motivate. I had my low points where I learned hard and how. I never want to go to that place again where I was scraping the coin jar to get something to eat. If you want something in america it is yours to have, but you have to put in the work and never settle.

No one is saying hard work and perseverance is a bad thing. What we are trying to say is with our current system some people are more successful then others. Those that are less successful should not be penalized by not being able to afford food, shelter, clothing and healthcare. If a person works a full-time job in America we should force that employer to pay the employee enough so they are not living under the poverty line.
 

Arkitech

Diamond Member
Apr 13, 2000
8,356
3
76
Originally posted by: spidey07
Originally posted by: Arkitech

I think we're all glad your friend and your other amazing co-workers, relatives, neighbors, pastors and aquaintances are able to reach incredible heights in this country with their high school diplomas and GEDs. But the reality is that millions and millions of smart, talented and hard working americans will never be able to reach a certain income level.

It amazes me you have the audacity to speak for millions of americans based on your personal experience. Who the fvck are you to tell some hard working family man or single mother that the reason they are'nt making sufficient money is because they are lazy and they don't have education or motivation. I'm really trying hard to restrain myself from calling you a couple names that probably deserve. What I'm going to do instead though is to encourage you to not judge people unless you know the full extent of their circumstances. Earning a large paycheck is not everyone's first priority in life, there are other more important things in life than making lots of money.

Who the fvck am I? I don't mean to offend, only to motivate. I had my low points where I learned hard and how. I never want to go to that place again where I was scraping the coin jar to get something to eat. If you want something in america it is yours to have, but you have to put in the work and never settle.


Again you're speaking from a very limited viewpoint. Let me give you some real life examples that I know of that explains why not every american can't just simply do things as easily as you envision them.

Example #1

Married man with 2 young children loses his job with the military. He finds out that the 20 years of mainframe exp he has is not a very marketable skill because of technological advances. He decides to take some classes to update his skills while pursuing part time work, during this time his wife develops a severe mental illness that forces her to leave work. Her insurance does'nt cover the expenses because she's no longer a company employee, so the husband must immediately find full time work with benefits to meet the family's needs. Because of this he was not able to finish his schooling and he's forced to take a lower paying job until hopefully his situation changes where he can update his skills and find better employment.

Example #2

An older man who's been retired for 7 years suffers a severe heart attack, he has a lengthy hospital stay and the medical treatment he receives is only covered up to 60%. The remaining 40% which amounts to several hundred thousand dollars must now come from his savings which him and his wife were both living on. After the man returns home from the hospital he realizes that he must enter the work force again, but until he can find a job he has to take out a mortgage on his home just to make ends meet.


Example #3

A stay at home mom with 3 children suddenly finds herself divorced and with no current job prospects. She has a BA but 11 years with no current work experience leaves her in awkward situation of trying to pay a mortgage with only very limited funds even after alimony and child support checks. She sells the home which has a 2nd mortgage and divides the meager proceeds with her ex-husband, she then moves into an apartment in a less than favorable neighborhood.



I could go on and on, but hopefully by now you get the picture. Not everyone is going to be in a favorable position to just go out and grab the american dream, sometimes circumstances prevent people from being able to move to a booming job market or spending months or years in school to obtain a better job.
 

spidey07

No Lifer
Aug 4, 2000
65,469
5
76
Originally posted by: jackace
No one is saying hard work and perseverance is a bad thing. What we are trying to say is with our current system some people are more successful then others. Those that are less successful should not be penalized by not being able to afford food, shelter, clothing and healthcare. If a person works a full-time job in America we should force that employer to pay the employee enough so they are not living under the poverty line.

We're just going to have to agree to disasgree then. :beer:

There are plenty of already in place programs (federal and civil) to address what you have brought up.
 

jackace

Golden Member
Oct 6, 2004
1,307
0
0
Originally posted by: Arkitech
Originally posted by: spidey07
Originally posted by: Arkitech

I think we're all glad your friend and your other amazing co-workers, relatives, neighbors, pastors and aquaintances are able to reach incredible heights in this country with their high school diplomas and GEDs. But the reality is that millions and millions of smart, talented and hard working americans will never be able to reach a certain income level.

It amazes me you have the audacity to speak for millions of americans based on your personal experience. Who the fvck are you to tell some hard working family man or single mother that the reason they are'nt making sufficient money is because they are lazy and they don't have education or motivation. I'm really trying hard to restrain myself from calling you a couple names that probably deserve. What I'm going to do instead though is to encourage you to not judge people unless you know the full extent of their circumstances. Earning a large paycheck is not everyone's first priority in life, there are other more important things in life than making lots of money.

Who the fvck am I? I don't mean to offend, only to motivate. I had my low points where I learned hard and how. I never want to go to that place again where I was scraping the coin jar to get something to eat. If you want something in america it is yours to have, but you have to put in the work and never settle.




Again you're speaking from a very limited viewpoint. Let me give you some real life examples that I know of that explains why not every american can't just simply do things as easily as you envision them.

Example #1

Married man with 2 young children loses his job with the military. He finds out that the 20 years of mainframe exp he has is not a very marketable skill because of technological advances. He decides to take some classes to update his skills while pursuing part time work, during this time his wife develops a severe mental illness that forces her to leave work. Her insurance does'nt cover the expenses because she's no longer a company employee, so the husband must immediately find full time work with benefits to meet the family's needs. Because of this he was not able to finish his schooling and he's forced to take a lower paying job until hopefully his situation changes where he can update his skills and find better employment.

Example #2

An older man who's been retired for 7 years suffers a severe heart attack, he has a lengthy hospital stay and the medical treatment he receives is only covered up to 60%. The remaining 40% which amounts to several hundred thousand dollars must now come from his savings which him and his wife were both living on. After the man returns home from the hospital he realizes that he must enter the work force again, but until he can find a job he has to take out a mortgage on his home just to make ends meet.


Example #3

A stay at home mom with 3 children suddenly finds herself divorced and with no current job prospects. She has a BA but 11 years with no current work experience leaves her in awkward situation of trying to pay a mortgage with only very limited funds even after alimony and child support checks. She sells the home which has a 2nd mortgage and divides the meager proceeds with her ex-husband, she then moves into an apartment in a less than favorable neighborhood.



I could go on and on, but hopefully by now you get the picture. Not everyone is going to be in a favorable position to just go out and grab the american dream, sometimes circumstances prevent people from being able to move to a booming job market or spending months or years in school to obtain a better job.

Great examples. These people are not lazy or worthless. Life just dealt them a bad hand. They should be able to find a job that pays enough money so they do not need to get government assistance.

My sister recently divorced herself. She was a stay at home mom with 2 kids under 4yo. Working for a MAJOR hotel did not make enough money for her to live on her own. She had to move back home with my parents. Daycare alone cost over half her pay check.
 

zinfamous

No Lifer
Jul 12, 2006
111,125
30,076
146
Originally posted by: spidey07
LOL!

I took organic and biochem as electives. bring it on e-peen.


bring it on???? electives????

are you as stupid as you type?

I never asked if you took it. I asked wtf you retained, whether you took it in school, or during your "2-week seminar." just like a business major:

-jackass #1: "Oh, I took those classes, professor was a joke, I said fuck off and never showed up, still pulled a C, Brah!"
*high fives jackass #2
-jackass#2: "Word!"
*jackass #1 does line of coke.

look, i'm not calling you sutpid for being a business major. I just think those in business who went to school for a degree (masters or otherwise), missapalied themselves in one of 2 ways:

1) wasted an intelligent mind on a joke degree
2) wasted their time on a joke degree when they could have been earning money...being that business is common sense, not the science that the business industry claims of itself...

some knowledge from a consultant far more successful than you will ever be ;)

I like the example of your friend, and I am curious as to how such a perfect example of the american dream only represents 3% of the population? Could it be that this dream does not exist? Could it be that it is available for only a select few? ....or it could it be that his dream exists on the backs of real labororers? (no, I'm not communist, I just couldn't help the language....say what you will about this source, but their data is taken from the Wall Street Journal and jibes with the management-based source posted in the preceding statement.)

Oh! I know! being that your successful, hard-working millionaire friend is a wonderful example of what 3% of the population can attain, you MUST be saying that the rest of the US population are lazy asshats. Well, you are...being that you make your individual friend-based arguments.

hmmm This guy, Kiyosaki, has a rather concise, and telling theory on wealth distrubution by manner of employment. Click on the link for the details, but he essentially argues (and rightly so based on MY personal experience--personal experience IS all that matters, right Spidey?) that those with actual jobs will never attain true wealth. Our economic structure is set in such a way that business owners (not their employees, of course) and investors (real estate, other peoples' money, etc) will exclusively obtain the wealth that your friend has so righteously obtained.

chew on this, smoke what it takes, and feel free to come back with whatever mindless, unsubstantiated drivel you will to inflate your "e-peen."
 

jackace

Golden Member
Oct 6, 2004
1,307
0
0
Originally posted by: spidey07
Originally posted by: jackace
No one is saying hard work and perseverance is a bad thing. What we are trying to say is with our current system some people are more successful then others. Those that are less successful should not be penalized by not being able to afford food, shelter, clothing and healthcare. If a person works a full-time job in America we should force that employer to pay the employee enough so they are not living under the poverty line.

We're just going to have to agree to disasgree then. :beer:

There are plenty of already in place programs (federal and civil) to address what you have brought up.

Thats the problem though. People complain those people are a drain on the rest of us because they get government assistance. Those people themselves do not want to be a burden (I will concede some actually do like being on the system) and would love to support themselves, but because wages are so low they are unable to do so.
 

spidey07

No Lifer
Aug 4, 2000
65,469
5
76
Originally posted by: Arkitech
Again you're speaking from a very limited viewpoint. Let me give you some real life examples that I know of that explains why not every american can't just simply do things as easily as you envision them.

Example #1

Married man with 2 young children loses his job with the military. He finds out that the 20 years of mainframe exp he has is not a very marketable skill because of technological advances. He decides to take some classes to update his skills while pursuing part time work, during this time his wife develops a severe mental illness that forces her to leave work. Her insurance does'nt cover the expenses because she's no longer a company employee, so the husband must immediately find full time work with benefits to meet the family's needs. Because of this he was not able to finish his schooling and he's forced to take a lower paying job until hopefully his situation changes where he can update his skills and find better employment.
---------------answer-----------------
So by sitting on his ass for 20 years it is somehow somebody else's fault that his skills are no longer marketable? "her insurance" was available to her via COBRA and she should have looked at mental coverage before accepting the plan or else choose her own plan. This is what I'm talking about - blamin others for poor decisions.

Example #2

An older man who's been retired for 7 years suffers a severe heart attack, he has a lengthy hospital stay and the medical treatment he receives is only covered up to 60%. The remaining 40% which amounts to several hundred thousand dollars must now come from his savings which him and his wife were both living on. After the man returns home from the hospital he realizes that he must enter the work force again, but until he can find a job he has to take out a mortgage on his home just to make ends meet.
--------answer-------------
why was he so underinsured as an older man? Why did he choose this path of ruin?


Example #3

A stay at home mom with 3 children suddenly finds herself divorced and with no current job prospects. She has a BA but 11 years with no current work experience leaves her in awkward situation of trying to pay a mortgage with only very limited funds even after alimony and child support checks. She sells the home which has a 2nd mortgage and divides the meager proceeds with her ex-husband, she then moves into an apartment in a less than favorable neighborhood.
--------------answer---------------
She's already getting a paycheck via ex-husband. Get her butt out to find a jobby-job.



I could go on and on, but hopefully by now you get the picture. Not everyone is going to be in a favorable position to just go out and grab the american dream, sometimes circumstances prevent people from being able to move to a booming job market or spending months or years in school to obtain a better job.

See my comments below your quotes. I seriously think life skills should be taught in high school.
 

adairusmc

Diamond Member
Jul 24, 2006
7,095
78
91
Originally posted by: davestar
Originally posted by: slsmnaz
Originally posted by: NeoV
I love how so few Americans are willing to concede that anything outside of our country is better.

I don't agree with many of the points the op made, but -

health care benefits
maternity leave
gun control

Are three HUGE areas that most of Europe has a giant advantage over the United States in.

You are seriously saying gun control is a positive?

if gun control leads to lower murder rates, than yes - it's positive.


Wrong.

 

Arkitech

Diamond Member
Apr 13, 2000
8,356
3
76
Originally posted by: spidey07
Originally posted by: Arkitech
Again you're speaking from a very limited viewpoint. Let me give you some real life examples that I know of that explains why not every american can't just simply do things as easily as you envision them.

Example #1

Married man with 2 young children loses his job with the military. He finds out that the 20 years of mainframe exp he has is not a very marketable skill because of technological advances. He decides to take some classes to update his skills while pursuing part time work, during this time his wife develops a severe mental illness that forces her to leave work. Her insurance does'nt cover the expenses because she's no longer a company employee, so the husband must immediately find full time work with benefits to meet the family's needs. Because of this he was not able to finish his schooling and he's forced to take a lower paying job until hopefully his situation changes where he can update his skills and find better employment.
---------------answer-----------------
So by sitting on his ass for 20 years it is somehow somebody else's fault that his skills are no longer marketable? "her insurance" was available to her via COBRA and she should have looked at mental coverage before accepting the plan or else choose her own plan. This is what I'm talking about - blamin others for poor decisions.

Example #2

An older man who's been retired for 7 years suffers a severe heart attack, he has a lengthy hospital stay and the medical treatment he receives is only covered up to 60%. The remaining 40% which amounts to several hundred thousand dollars must now come from his savings which him and his wife were both living on. After the man returns home from the hospital he realizes that he must enter the work force again, but until he can find a job he has to take out a mortgage on his home just to make ends meet.
--------answer-------------
why was he so underinsured as an older man? Why did he choose this path of ruin?


Example #3

A stay at home mom with 3 children suddenly finds herself divorced and with no current job prospects. She has a BA but 11 years with no current work experience leaves her in awkward situation of trying to pay a mortgage with only very limited funds even after alimony and child support checks. She sells the home which has a 2nd mortgage and divides the meager proceeds with her ex-husband, she then moves into an apartment in a less than favorable neighborhood.
--------------answer---------------
She's already getting a paycheck via ex-husband. Get her butt out to find a jobby-job.



I could go on and on, but hopefully by now you get the picture. Not everyone is going to be in a favorable position to just go out and grab the american dream, sometimes circumstances prevent people from being able to move to a booming job market or spending months or years in school to obtain a better job.

See my comments below your quotes. I seriously think life skills should be taught in high school.

ok, before I can even attempt to reason with you we need to address your problems. From the many comments you've made in this thread, you clearly believe that it's unacceptable for people to need help from others for any reason what so ever. Lets just say that the above comments you made to my examples were 100% valid, you still have'nt accounted for the fact that people are'nt perfect. In a perfect world with perfect people we would be able to make decisions now that would work out perfectly for us 15-20 years down the line. But the reality is that even smart, educated people can make poor choices. Even talented, hardworking individuals can find themselves in bad situations that they did'nt create and can't control.

Its so easy to pick someone else's life apart and point out what they should or should'nt have done, but I guarantee that even you will one day find yourself in a predicament where you'll need someone's assistance. That assistance may not be monetary but you'll still need to suck up someone else's resources whether its time or some other form of commodity due to your ignorance or negligence. If you're as smart as you think you are you'll log off the computer tonight and examine your personal motivations and feelings towards other people. Wealth and power are not valid qualities of a great man, understanding and compassion are.

 

jackace

Golden Member
Oct 6, 2004
1,307
0
0
Here is a question for you then Spidey07. With all these low paying jobs, who is supposed to be working them? Like I said before jobs in this country work a lot like economics. There is only so much room at the top. Eventually someone has to take that low paying job. If everyone had the same education and motivation there would still be some working low paying jobs. What I'm saying is force those corporations (both the ones I worked for make $billions a year) to actually pay workers what it costs to live. We had a similar situation happen in this country at the turn of the century, and we enacted huge changes.

With things like they are now the rich (ie business owners and large corporations) take advantage of the poor and less fortunate in our society. All I'm saying is if those rich people want to get richer they are atleast going to have to pay their employees a wage that allows them to support themselves. Not sure raising minimum wage is the best option, but some good unions in all industries could be some good options.
 

HamSupLo

Diamond Member
Aug 18, 2001
4,021
0
0
Everyone who thinks that their health insurance will pay for their care should look at the details in their policy very carefully. Yeah, there are low copayments and deductibles, but god forbid if you have a major illness. Most insurance does not cover 100% of the costs. Your responsibility of 20 - 30% of a large hospital bill can bankrupt you. That's what the average middle class American is facing with our healthcare system.
 

zinfamous

No Lifer
Jul 12, 2006
111,125
30,076
146
Originally posted by: spidey07
Originally posted by: Arkitech
Again you're speaking from a very limited viewpoint. Let me give you some real life examples that I know of that explains why not every american can't just simply do things as easily as you envision them.

Example #1

Married man with 2 young children loses his job with the military. He finds out that the 20 years of mainframe exp he has is not a very marketable skill because of technological advances. He decides to take some classes to update his skills while pursuing part time work, during this time his wife develops a severe mental illness that forces her to leave work. Her insurance does'nt cover the expenses because she's no longer a company employee, so the husband must immediately find full time work with benefits to meet the family's needs. Because of this he was not able to finish his schooling and he's forced to take a lower paying job until hopefully his situation changes where he can update his skills and find better employment.
---------------answer-----------------
So by sitting on his ass for 20 years it is somehow somebody else's fault that his skills are no longer marketable? "her insurance" was available to her via COBRA and she should have looked at mental coverage before accepting the plan or else choose her own plan. This is what I'm talking about - blamin others for poor decisions.

Example #2

An older man who's been retired for 7 years suffers a severe heart attack, he has a lengthy hospital stay and the medical treatment he receives is only covered up to 60%. The remaining 40% which amounts to several hundred thousand dollars must now come from his savings which him and his wife were both living on. After the man returns home from the hospital he realizes that he must enter the work force again, but until he can find a job he has to take out a mortgage on his home just to make ends meet.
--------answer-------------
why was he so underinsured as an older man? Why did he choose this path of ruin?


Example #3

A stay at home mom with 3 children suddenly finds herself divorced and with no current job prospects. She has a BA but 11 years with no current work experience leaves her in awkward situation of trying to pay a mortgage with only very limited funds even after alimony and child support checks. She sells the home which has a 2nd mortgage and divides the meager proceeds with her ex-husband, she then moves into an apartment in a less than favorable neighborhood.
--------------answer---------------
She's already getting a paycheck via ex-husband. Get her butt out to find a jobby-job.



I could go on and on, but hopefully by now you get the picture. Not everyone is going to be in a favorable position to just go out and grab the american dream, sometimes circumstances prevent people from being able to move to a booming job market or spending months or years in school to obtain a better job.

See my comments below your quotes. I seriously think life skills should be taught in high school.


you honestly think COBRA is worthwhile insurance? ...and affordable for someone struggling without a job?

seriously...please tell me what strain of ganja you are smoking and where you got it. I would LOVE to be a part of that reality ;)
 

zinfamous

No Lifer
Jul 12, 2006
111,125
30,076
146
Originally posted by: HamSupLo
Everyone who thinks that their health insurance will pay for their care should look at the details in their policy very carefully. Yeah, there are low copayments and deductibles, but god forbid if you have a major illness. Most insurance does not cover 100% of the costs. Your responsibility of 20 - 30% of a large hospital bill can bankrupt you. That's what the average middle class American is facing with our healthcare system.


yer. I mentioned earlier that one provider when I was working for U Chicago updated their out-of-network emergency coverage policy to re-define emergency as "internal bleeding received from bruised or punctured organ." Being that my annual ski trip to Colorado was coming up...I sure as shit couldn't imagine the possibilty of a broken leg, my ass stuck in Denver, or forced onto a plane W/O meds, let alone any type of operation (this happend to my friend 1 year later, when he tore his knee out in Breckenridge). --This would have been covered for me before they made the "update," as Miss HR woman put it wryly. I always wondered if Mr Blue Cross CEO, who like most wealthy men-about-town likes to ski, ever had the same situation happen to him....would it bother him that his own company would not cover him if he broke his leg in Vail? (don't be silly! he can afford to pay for it on his own! ...what was I thinking?)

Spidey's response: Well, you just shouldn't go skiing--that's your choice :p
same as the provider's I'm sure.

I changed my provider. Spidey would say, "See, you had the option to change. That's CHOICE." :roll:

point is, no industry that claims to provide healthcare should think that it is morally acceptable to put anyone in this situation. It is absolutely unacceptable to force a medical professional to DENY the hippocratic oath, and therefore DENY treatment. Well, when your motivations are profit, morality is not an issue. One "peen" bigger than the other, eh?
 

ElFenix

Elite Member
Super Moderator
Mar 20, 2000
102,357
8,446
126
by and large you can't get rich working for someone else. maybe if you rise up into upper management at a big company you can do it. but that's not how much wealthy people do it. if you're unwilling to take the risk of striking out on your own (and i very much doubt the magnitude of the risk, as working for the man only offers the illusion of security, imho), you've got only yourself to blame.


as for doctors intentionally controlling the supply of doctors (and through that, health care, which doctors don't really provide), you need only look at the history of the AMA to know that is true.
 

jackace

Golden Member
Oct 6, 2004
1,307
0
0
Originally posted by: ElFenix
by and large you can't get rich working for someone else. maybe if you rise up into upper management at a big company you can do it. but that's not how much wealthy people do it. if you're unwilling to take the risk of striking out on your own (and i very much doubt the magnitude of the risk, as working for the man only offers the illusion of security, imho), you've got only yourself to blame.

I totally agree with you, but if everyone struck out on their own who would everyone hire to work for them????

Everyone knows owning your own business and profiting from your employees and other assets (yes employees are assets) is the quickest way to getting rich. But, some people either cannot start a business themselves for w/e reason, their business failed and need to pay bills,
or choose not to start their own business. Those people that work for other people should not be forced to work for a wage that is below the poverty line. By working for someone else most American's know they are not going to get rich, but should that force ~20% of them to live a life of poverty? I believe we are better then that in this country and we should do something about it. Healthcare changes are the least we can do.
 
May 16, 2000
13,522
0
0
Originally posted by: vi_edit
Originally posted by: PrinceofWands
Originally posted by: vi_edit
Originally posted by: fiksi
Originally posted by: CPA
Originally posted by: fiksi
Originally posted by: MrDudeMan
fiksi, you are an idiot. It's sad that you can't see past your own ignorance.

So i am an idiot for giving something to think? I am an idiot for giving
you real statistical data, i am an idiot who has traveled around teh world and Europe,
i am an idiot who was always in top of class?

I am an idiot because i work and get paid well, with all benefits?

Well, if it is so, then be it. Your fellow Americans here don't think that way. Perhaps they are all idiots for coming in Europe?

You didn't give any statistical data, only conjecture based on your "experiences".

BTW, how do you account for the numerous Europeans who have moved to the US? Many more, I would think than Americans who have moved to Europe?


What about minimum wages before? I gave data, which shows what minimum wage is in US, and what purchasing power it gives.


Well, most Europeans who moved to states seem to be from eastern european countries, and because almost all ppl know english- they went to states. Also,
i didn't say that doctor or top engineer doesn't have higher salary in US, he DOES.

In that respect, Europe is still lagging somewhat.

http://www.bls.gov/cps/minwage2006.htm

Less than 500,000 people are paid minimum wage. Over half of them are college aged kids or younger. It's statisically insignificiant because it's not intended to be a living wage. It's supplemental income.

There are another 1.3 million that make less than minimum wage but those are service oriented with tip compensation that isn't factored into the hourly rate. Many of those workers are making far more than the minimum once that is factored in. And my point still stands that it was never intended to be a living wage.

Let's gain some perspective here. Minimum wage here is about $8/hr. That works out to roughly 16k a year. That's about 27% of the country. 42% of Americans earn under 25k a year, which is still drastically below poverty level. 70% earn less than 50k a year, which is where we enter good middle-income living. Don't sugar coat things...most Americans earn next to nothing.

I'll consider your perspective when you actually put some statistics and credibility to the numbers you sling around.

Here's the average weekly wage break down by the largest counties in the state of Washington: http://www.bls.gov/ro9/qcewwa.htm

Those 9 counties contributed to make up over 80% of the population of the state. The 9th lowest paid average weekly wage was 516 a week. That's around $26,000 if you factor in 50 working weeks a year. The federal poverty level is just under $20k for a family of 4. Think about that - 80% of the measured state makes over the poverty level for a single income earner.

If you really want to look things over by state here's a breakdown of average wages by state: http://www.bls.gov/cew/state2002.txt (it's from 2002 so it's likely done nothing but gone up).

I understand that these are averages and that numbers can get muddled up by having one millionare in there blowing up the average, but I've failed trying to find a break down by percentages. Meaning, I can't find a table that breaks down wages in actual ratios to the working base (aka 30% of the working force makes $XX.XX-$YY.YY per hour)

The closest I could find was this table that broke it out by numbers of workers in a given job role and broke out the wages: http://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes_nat.htm

Keep in mind that we only have ~130 million actually employed workers that are covered in these statistics. We are excluding children, retired people, stay at home parents, disabled, and unemployed.

My numbers simply do not add up to yours.

Sry, didn't realize we were citing. Here you go:

You are correct that my poverty levels are not official...then again, show me a family of 4 living in acceptable conditions earning 25k. What the government names 'official' doesn't necessarily make it logical or reasonable. But I'll let that go.

Here's the raw data (males only, but females are worse so let's keep it simple for now). Let's crunch the numbers. 111,686 total. Under 17,500 a year is 30963, which is 27.7%. So I'm correct. Under 25k is 43365, which is 38.8%. So I'm off on that one a few percentage points, not sure where I screwed up my initial calculation on it. Roughly 73k are below $50,000 so my 70% claim is pretty much accurate. Now, if you look at women you'll find the earnings much lower, so it will only increase the validity of my claims.

Bottom line: VERY FEW PEOPLE IN AMERICA MAKE ANY MONEY.

edit: if you want an easy overview based on government data check this wiki out.
 

spidey07

No Lifer
Aug 4, 2000
65,469
5
76
Originally posted by: Arkitech
ok, before I can even attempt to reason with you we need to address your problems. From the many comments you've made in this thread, you clearly believe that it's unacceptable for people to need help from others for any reason what so ever. Lets just say that the above comments you made to my examples were 100% valid, you still have'nt accounted for the fact that people are'nt perfect. In a perfect world with perfect people we would be able to make decisions now that would work out perfectly for us 15-20 years down the line. But the reality is that even smart, educated people can make poor choices. Even talented, hardworking individuals can find themselves in bad situations that they did'nt create and can't control.

Its so easy to pick someone else's life apart and point out what they should or should'nt have done, but I guarantee that even you will one day find yourself in a predicament where you'll need someone's assistance. That assistance may not be monetary but you'll still need to suck up someone else's resources whether its time or some other form of commodity due to your ignorance or negligence. If you're as smart as you think you are you'll log off the computer tonight and examine your personal motivations and feelings towards other people. Wealth and power are not valid qualities of a great man, understanding and compassion are.

I've already been there. Twice. It sucked and I didn't look to others for help, I searched within. I don't ever want to go through that again.

That's where my perspective is coming from. When you fail, you learn. I learned and will never make those mistakes again. I will never be underinsured and I will never stop reaching for the stars or become complacent. Biggest thing I learned is we are all consequences of our decisions and choices. In america you are completely free to make those choices as well as you are completely free to make dumb ones.