Woman in combat

[chucky2]

Those are competitive games and I have no problem establishing differences in gender or skill. I don't consider the US military to be a game. The military is a job with a goal, and as long as people can meet the standards, they should have the opportunity to serve in a particular area.

Yes, but combat is a "game", but not a ping pong game where a woman could very well best a man, but more like a decathlan. How man women decathletes can hang with men decathletes at men decathlete levels? I haven't looked, but id imagine, very very few...

 

[Theb]

There was an interesting Talk of the Nation about this today. Plenty of women don't think the ban should be lifted, but there are also hard chargers who have been cock-blocked - Lt. Col. Samantha Nerove in particular. http://www.npr.org/2013/01/24/170175685/a-closer-look-at-women-in-combat?ft=1&f=5

 

[Carfax83]

Arm wrestle for it

Using a "woman" with supraphysiological levels of testosterone due to steroid usage is hardly a good example of a strong woman..

Also, the life of a front line soldier prevents the kind of focus on bodybuilding and strength training necessary to achieve that kind of build.

 

[Smoblikat]

Monthly sanitation might be an issue.............if you catch my drift.

 

[Carfax83]

I am 6'5" 300lb man... compared to me, you are a like a woman. I can carry more gear, further and faster than you can. You shouldn't qualify for combat duty because there are stronger men out there better suited.

LOL whatever dude. You'd be the first guy to fall out due to your excessive body weight. :biggrin:

 

[Orignal Earl]

Using a "woman" with supraphysiological levels of testosterone due to steroid usage is hardly a good example of a strong woman..

Also, the life of a front line soldier prevents the kind of focus on bodybuilding and strength training necessary to achieve that kind of build.

You were supposed to chuckle and move along to the next post

 

[Carfax83]

You were supposed to chuckle and move along to the next post

I know the poster was being sarcastic, but I posted anyway because there are a lot of dumb asses out there that believe women can gain that sort of musculature naturally..

 

[nehalem256]

http://www.mca-marines.org/gazette/article/get-over-it-we-are-not-all-created-equal

My prediction is that very few women will volunteer for combat positions. Out of them, even fewer will make it in. Out of them, even fewer will complete a tour of duty in such a unit. And out of them, virtually none will choose to do it again.

I wonder what would happen to a man who said he didn't want to serve in a combat position again?

Also I will quote the most important part of the article:

At the end of the 7-month deployment, and the construction of 18 PBs later, I had lost 17 pounds and was diagnosed with polycystic ovarian syndrome (which personally resulted in infertility, but is not a genetic trend in my family), which was brought on by the chemical and physical changes endured during deployment. Regardless of my deteriorating physical stature, I was extremely successful during both of my combat tours, serving beside my infantry brethren and gaining the respect of every unit I supported. Regardless, I can say with 100 percent assurance that despite my accomplishments, there is no way I could endure the physical demands of the infantrymen whom I worked beside as their combat load and constant deployment cycle would leave me facing medical separation long before the option of retirement. I understand that everyone is affected differently; however, I am confident that should the Marine Corps attempt to fully integrate women into the infantry, we as an institution are going to experience a colossal increase in crippling and career-ending medical conditions for females.

How many women will have to suffer so feminists can pretend equality exists?

 

[Ackmed]

You don't seem to get it. The notion of differentiating based on gender is stupid. Differentiate based on performance. If the performance requirement is to shoot an M-16 in your off hand while carrying a 45 pound pumpkin in the other... then let everyone do that. Those that can make it, those that can't don't. Stop making it about gender...

If it makes you feel better telling me I wasn't deployed so I'm not entitled to my opinion... then feel better. But it doesn't make you right... and it doesn't change policy.

You call me fattie... I call you shrimp..next?

No, it's you who doesn't seem to get it. Currently men and women are separated by gender in PT in the Marine Corps. Women don't have to even do pullups till 2014. And when they do, they get to do TWELVE less for a perfect score 8 instead of 20. Most women can't even do ONE. They get THREE extra minutes to run the 3 miles. They get 48 MORE seconds to run the 880 yard "dash" for the CFT. Females only have to do 60 ammo can lifts, males do 91. Females get 3:01 to do the maneuver under fire, males get just 2:14. These are all for perfect scores. Females get 26% body fat, males get just 18%. Care to guess why all this is? Because females do NOT have the same body as males. They are weaker by average, and have more body fat. That is just the way it is. They do not have to do the same requirements as far as physical fitness goes, yet some of them want to server in equal roles in combat? That's just silly.

You are entitled to your opinion, everyone is. I was simply stating that I have more to draw from, because I have done it, and seen them in action. When we picked up the two FET's, we had to hump 11 clicks to get them, and 11 back to our PB. They had their full ruck and day pack. We had to stop so many times, and ultimately they couldn't make it. Guess who had to carry their packs? Men, that's who. Putting a female in a grunt platoon would be disastrous. There are so many racial, and sexist jokes, I can see it going badly fast. Should there be? Probably not. A grunt platoon is a dysfunctional family. If you can't take a lot of jokes, a bit of hazing, and being yelled at then it's not for you. I can see it going poorly fast with females. Not to mention the daily PT. They couldn't keep up, and would get hammered. Same as any other Marine who couldn't keep up, but females would be on the average even worse. Then as I said, deployments would be a logistical nightmare. We took over a compound to stay in, there was no privacy. It was tiny.

I am smaller than you, far from a shrimp. 6'1", 200lbs and jacked. You couldn't be in the Marine corps being your size, you have way too much body fat. And brute strength isn't all that matters, cardio does as well. Sure there are different sizes of men. I would imagine that the weaker male Marines are still pretty close, if not stronger than the strongest female Marines. Not only is patrolling twice daily physically exhausting, there was also at least two shifts of post, 4 hours each. There was no set schedule to sleep, you slept when you could. Your body was always running on fumes, with basically a series of naps to get you by. I'm telling you as someone who has been there, by FAR most women couldn't do what we did. And it would be a mistake to put them in such situations. Sure, some could. Some extremely fit and strong women. As a whole, not even close.

Why aren't there lots of women in physical manual labor jobs? Because their bodies can't handle it. Like another said, women don't play football, because they can't. Every so often some female tries it, and fails miserably. I believe females can do most jobs in the military, just not being on the front lines with the huge physical disadvantage they have, and the other problems it creates. To me, it is not worth it to allow all females, just to get the very few in who can actually do it.

 

[nehalem256]

No, it's you who doesn't seem to get it. Currently men and women are separated by gender in PT in the Marine Corps. Women don't have to even do pullups till 2014. And when they do, they get to do TWELVE less for a perfect score 8 instead of 20. Most women can't even do ONE. They get THREE extra minutes to run the 3 miles. They get 48 MORE seconds to run the 880 yard "dash" for the CFT. Females only have to do 60 ammo can lifts, males do 91. Females get 3:01 to do the maneuver under fire, males get just 2:14. These are all for perfect scores. Females get 26% body fat, males get just 18%. Care to guess why all this is? Because females do NOT have the same body as males. They are weaker by average, and have more body fat. That is just the way it is. They do not have to do the same requirements as far as physical fitness goes, yet some of them want to server in equal roles in combat? That's just silly.

Which is why the simplest solution is to require women to meet the men's standards if they want to serve in combat.

As you mentioned this will likely exclude most women. But it will keep them from complaining about not having equality.

 

[Ackmed]

http://www.mca-marines.org/gazette/article/get-over-it-we-are-not-all-created-equal

This female Marine Corps Captain outlines why women can't endure combat positions as well as men. Basically, for that 2% of women that CAN hang with a Marine or Army light infantry unit, they'll be operating at 100% of their physical capability in situations where the men are operating at 50% of theirs. This has been borne out in the Marine Infantry Officer Course, where both women candidates suffered debilitating physical injuries before completing the course, and in the Army's Ranger school, where all there women suffered debilitating physical injuries before completing the course. You can also look at OCS & TBS (The Basic School) and see that women are 15x more likely to be removed from those courses due to debilitating physical injury because they're required the carry the same weight and perform the same duties as men.

My prediction is that very few women will volunteer for combat positions. Out of them, even fewer will make it in. Out of them, even fewer will complete a tour of duty in such a unit. And out of them, virtually none will choose to do it again.

That is a very good article. I read it in a previous Marine Corps times. As others have said, it creates far more problems, and solves how many? None. There isn't a shortage of front line troops. I do believe some women can do it, it's just not worth all the baggage it would bring to get them there. I think there are jobs more suited for females in the Corps too. Men and women are just inherently better at some things than others are. Men and women are not created equal, I don't understand why some people try to force it to be that way. Except for personal agendas.

 

[Ackmed]

Arm wrestle for it

She would look nothing like that in country. Protein was BANNED by our CO because he said it dehydrated you. There was no gym to go to, everyone lost tons of weight. I lost 20lbs in 7 months over there. Even if there was a gym, there is no way I would have done it. We were always tired. I wasn't some fobbit who had a real base to stay on with a bed, ac, chow hall, etc. We literally had nothing. I don't think you understand.

But I have no problem admitting she is overall stronger than me. Put her up against a male who competes in the same category, see what happens.

 

[Orignal Earl]

Why aren't there lots of women in physical manual labor jobs? Because their bodies can't handle it. Like another said, women don't play football, because they can't. Every so often some female tries it, and fails miserably. I believe females can do most jobs in the military, just not being on the front lines with the huge physical disadvantage they have, and the other problems it creates. To me, it is not worth it to allow all females, just to get the very few in who can actually do it.

We have womens tackle football here?
http://www.wwcfl.com/

I would bet no man here could of beat my niece in hockey either

 

[TallBill]

She would look nothing like that in country. Protein was BANNED by our CO because he said it dehydrated you. There was no gym to go to, everyone lost tons of weight. I lost 20lbs in 7 months over there. Even if there was a gym, there is no way I would have done it. We were always tired. I wasn't some fobbit who had a real base to stay on with a bed, ac, chow hall, etc. We literally had nothing. I don't think you understand.

But I have no problem admitting she is overall stronger than me. Put her up against a male who competes in the same category, see what happens.

Heh I had to live like that for maybe 20 days total out of 22 months overseas. I did at least go outside the wire on real missions daily.

We had females as MPs. One or two stuck out by being really tough. Honestly I couldn't imagine them doing more than what we did. I do believe that everyone in my platoon was able to fireman carry me, at 6'6", 235 plus plates.

Walking patrols were minimal and physically difficult tasks we're sometimes a problem.

 

[Ackmed]

Which is why the simplest solution is to require women to meet the men's standards if they want to serve in combat.

As you mentioned this will likely exclude most women. But it will keep them from complaining about not having equality.

The Marine Corps established the CFT (Combat Fitness Test) a few years ago, because the PFT does not accurately show how one would do in a combat environment. You do the CFT in cammies with boots, not pt shorts, a t, and running shoes. While it is a step in the right direction, it still can't come close to how hard it can be living on the edge, patrolling every day.

As the article linked showed, women just break down faster than men. Their bodies simply aren't built for it. Over time, who has always done the heavy lifting of jobs, throughout all over the world, and time? Men.

The physical part is not all of it, there is so much more than that to deal with. While I do think it sucks for the females who really want to do it, and think they can, it's not worth it letting the very few who could pass. I don't feel like finding the article (was in Marine Corps times), but it took a fitness instructor 3 years to achieve 20 pullups. Which is what men do. Took me less than 3 months of boot camp. She was pretty built too.

During a few operations, myself and another combat engineer deployed APOBS several times. If you don't know what that is, it is a two pack of grenades and a rocket. Basically you attach the packs together, the rocket shoots forward, and the grenades blow up. Making a clear line to walk. There are 108 grenades in total, then the rocket. The system weighs around 125lbs. There are two packs, then the rocket bag. Nowhere in the CFT do you do anything this hard. I set off four of them, under fire, having to low crawl a few times. Getting up off the ground, with all my gear on, PLUS a 60lb pack of grenades was brutal. I am not trying to sound like some billy bad ass. But it was the wild west out there, and we did some crazy shit. We were Ospry dropped in on the biggest offensive in the Helmand provice in the middle of nowhere. No support for two days. We only took a handful of water bottles with us. Supposed to get resupplied the next day, helo's couldn't because it was too hot. Totally exhausted and dehydrated. We got hit hard because we had no support, and they knew it. But we had to take this one huge hill, and put up the snipers and machine gunners to take the bazaar. Know what a MK19 is? Try carrying that, it's about fucking impossible with all your gear on over any distance, and especially up a moon dust hill, but we did it. That, and a M2. I am telling you with all seriousness, a woman would have been a hinder that day, and there is no way she could have pulled her own weight. I have tons of stories, pics, vids, whatever. I don't care if anyone believes me. Messing with the dynamic of what we had with one, or two females would have been a terrible mistake.

Again, I am sure what we did was on the far end of the scale. Most deployed Marines don't do anything like that. Most deployed troops sit on a big base living the cushy life. But still get paid hazard pay and everything else. Don't even get me started on that. But to me, it is just not worth it to get the hard charging females a chance, to have to put up with all the rest of the baggage that would come along.

 

[Ackmed]

We have womens tackle football here?
http://www.wwcfl.com/

I would bet no man here could of beat my niece in hockey either

How do you think they would do against a male football team?

And I take that bet, I grew up playing hockey in Alaska.

 

[Orignal Earl]

How do you think they would do against a male football team?*
And I take that bet, I grew up playing hockey in Alaska.

I don't think the argument is are women better at it, is it?
I grew up playing too, she could skate circles around me.

These women do this 16 hours a day with one break, load those up there themselves and don't get sunday or saturday off

 

[nehalem256]

The Marine Corps established the CFT (Combat Fitness Test) a few years ago, because the PFT does not accurately show how one would do in a combat environment. You do the CFT in cammies with boots, not pt shorts, a t, and running shoes. While it is a step in the right direction, it still can't come close to how hard it can be living on the edge, patrolling every day.

As the article linked showed, women just break down faster than men. Their bodies simply aren't built for it. Over time, who has always done the heavy lifting of jobs, throughout all over the world, and time? Men.

The physical part is not all of it, there is so much more than that to deal with. While I do think it sucks for the females who really want to do it, and think they can, it's not worth it letting the very few who could pass. I don't feel like finding the article (was in Marine Corps times), but it took a fitness instructor 3 years to achieve 20 pullups. Which is what men do. Took me less than 3 months of boot camp. She was pretty built too.

During a few operations, myself and another combat engineer deployed APOBS several times. If you don't know what that is, it is a two pack of grenades and a rocket. Basically you attach the packs together, the rocket shoots forward, and the grenades blow up. Making a clear line to walk. There are 108 grenades in total, then the rocket. The system weighs around 125lbs. There are two packs, then the rocket bag. Nowhere in the CFT do you do anything this hard. I set off four of them, under fire, having to low crawl a few times. Getting up off the ground, with all my gear on, PLUS a 60lb pack of grenades was brutal. I am not trying to sound like some billy bad ass. But it was the wild west out there, and we did some crazy shit. We were Ospry dropped in on the biggest offensive in the Helmand provice in the middle of nowhere. No support for two days. We only took a handful of water bottles with us. Supposed to get resupplied the next day, helo's couldn't because it was too hot. Totally exhausted and dehydrated. We got hit hard because we had no support, and they knew it. But we had to take this one huge hill, and put up the snipers and machine gunners to take the bazaar. Know what a MK19 is? Try carrying that, it's about fucking impossible with all your gear on over any distance, and especially up a moon dust hill, but we did it. That, and a M2. I am telling you with all seriousness, a woman would have been a hinder that day, and there is no way she could have pulled her own weight. I have tons of stories, pics, vids, whatever. I don't care if anyone believes me. Messing with the dynamic of what we had with one, or two females would have been a terrible mistake.

Again, I am sure what we did was on the far end of the scale. Most deployed Marines don't do anything like that. Most deployed troops sit on a big base living the cushy life. But still get paid hazard pay and everything else. Don't even get me started on that. But to me, it is just not worth it to get the hard charging females a chance, to have to put up with all the rest of the baggage that would come along.

Your are probably entirely right. Unfortunately no one will listen to sense anymore.

So hopefully they will insist on the same physical standards for women as men and some women will end up making fools of themselves trying to prove they are men and nothing affects actual combat operations.

 

[nehalem256]

I don't think the argument is are women better at it, is it?
I grew up playing too, she could skate circles around me.

These women do this 16 hours a day with one break, load those up there themselves and don't get sunday or saturday off

For obvious reasons you don't carry your combat gear on your head

 

[Incorruptible]

We have womens tackle football here?
http://www.wwcfl.com/

I would bet no man here could of beat my niece in hockey either

What is your niece wearing around her neck:\

As for the OP I am seeing some arguments as to why women should not be allowed in combat roles.

The tests are not even the same for both men and women, this has to change.

Will most women be able to handle the load, having to carry over 50lbs in harsh conditions and the fatigue can be very hard to handle

IF the women are just as physically capable as men then let them otherwise no

 

[Orignal Earl]

For obvious reasons you don't carry your combat gear on your head

Do you think you could fireman carry someone heavier then you?

What is your niece wearing around her neck:\

 

[CanOWorms]

Why would we use existing test methodology that caters to one demographic? I can come up with tests that more women can excel at than men.

Different roles may emphasize different test results.

 

[TallBill]

Why would we use existing test methodology that caters to one demographic? I can come up with tests that more women can excel at than men.

Different roles may emphasize different test results.

Wat?

 

[nehalem256]

Why would we use existing test methodology that caters to one demographic? I can come up with tests that more women can excel at than men.

Military physical fitness tests were not created to "cater" to a particular demographic. They were created to ensure minimum combat effectiveness.

Different roles may emphasize different test results.

That would seem to be the state of the military today. Women are allowed in roles which they are suited, which does not include frontline combat units.

You appear to be arguing for keeping women out of combat units.

 

[CanOWorms]

Military physical fitness tests were not created to "cater" to a particular demographic. They were created to ensure minimum combat effectiveness.

No, they're not. They're created to emphasize male-dominated skills. The skills selected to determine minimum combat effectiveness are of the aforementioned skills.

That would seem to be the state of the military today. Women are allowed in roles which they are suited, which does not include frontline combat units.

You appear to be arguing for keeping women out of combat units.

Nope.