Windows 8 Consumer Preview Feedback Thread

[Pia]

It's not faster when you're leaning back in your chair with just your right hand at the control. I know that's one specific scenario, but it's the position I'm usually in at the PC. I'm comfortable because of an accommodating UI.

Good thing, then, that the new start screen should enable you to click on stuff faster and reduce the total amount of clicks you need to make.

 

[Gonad the Barbarian]

Good thing, then, that the new start screen should enable you to click on stuff faster and reduce the total amount of clicks you need to make.

I hope you're right, that this will be more intuitive, quicker, and easier than what we have now. But I sure don't see it. I also really don't understand your aversion to the Win7 Start menu because it is intuitive, quick, and easy as it stands. The only argument I can see someone making is it's somewhat cluttered with submenus, but that's the nature of having a lot of information in a hierarchical structure. The screens I've seen of Metro after you start installing stuff looks like a jumbled mess with no organized structure at all.

 

[BD2003]

So it's unacceptable that Microsoft hasn't done it by Windows 8, but it's OK that apple didn't do it until OSX - i.e. 10?

Some may see it as convenient, but not everyone. Again, it's done for control and money. Convenience to any user is just a extra bonus for them. You do realize Apple has used this to keep people from writing things they don't want them too, right? Your browser can use flash? Banned. You want access to the music files? Banned. Doesn't meet the moral level? Banned. Furthermore, they locked everyone else OUT. You get it from the app store or you don't get it - unless you're capable of jailbreaking. That's very problematic.

Now, if you want an app store that's simply a clearing house, fine. No moral checks, no policy checks, no agendas, and simply code validation and distribution that'd be fine. But it shouldn't be app store or nothing.

Apple, or more accurately, Steve Jobs had a personal issue with adobe, so he banned flash. Microsoft could use their app store to ban stuff too. Only problem is all the US and EU and who knows who else would yank them into court ASAP and they'd be hit with mega fines. But, as long as it's Apple banning things - it's OK, right?

I don't like having to jailbreak my phone either - but we're not talking about smartphones here. The control they have over what goes into an app store is a double edged sword that slices both ways.

On a desktop, I'm 100% against the idea of app store or nothing. The entire point of a desktop is to have all the flexibility and power that you want. Apple isn't pushing an app store only policy on the Mac, it's just an option...but a very good one for almost every application I use on that platform. Ive definitely dropped a few bucks on apps I never would have considering dealing with the annoying purchasing process on windows. Not to mention by widening the audience that now has easy access, prices have dropped considerably.

By limiting the win8 app store to metro only, they've severely undermined what should be an integral part of any OS in this time and age. It has nothing to do with number of iterations. It's 2012, this needs to be basic functionality. Even Linux is way ahead of them here.

 

[Pia]

I hope you're right, that this will be more intuitive, quicker, and easier than what we have now. But I sure don't see it. I also really don't understand your aversion to the Win7 Start menu because it is intuitive, quick, and easy as it stands. The only argument I can see someone making is it's somewhat cluttered with submenus, but that's the nature of having a lot of information in a hierarchical structure. The screens I've seen of Metro after you start installing stuff looks like a jumbled mess with no organized structure at all.

You get to choose exactly what tiles you see on the start screen, so there's zero reason for it to be a jumbled mess. On a desktop screen almost everything you are ever going to launch (without searching) fits on the visible part of the screen, which means two clicks to launch anything. The click targets are enormous compared to the old menu, so an individual click takes less time.

The single favorable thing I currently see in the old menu is that it opens up instantly. Hopefully there will be a way to disable the start screen transition so it doesn't lose on that front either.

 

[Gonad the Barbarian]

You get to choose exactly what tiles you see on the start screen, so there's zero reason for it to be a jumbled mess. On a desktop screen almost everything you are ever going to launch (without searching) fits on the visible part of the screen, which means two clicks to launch anything. The click targets are enormous compared to the old menu, so an individual click takes less time.

The single favorable thing I currently see in the old menu is that it opens up instantly. Hopefully there will be a way to disable the start screen transition so it doesn't lose on that front either.

That's the main problem I see with Metro. There is no middle ground between pinning the tiles you use often to the start screen and easily navigating to programs that aren't pinned. Clutter or sparse is your only choice. Covering the entire desktop.

And that's not even to mention that the current start menu stays organized and uncluttered by nature without me having to do much of anything.

And I still think not being able to pin an active tile to the desktop like a gadget is a horrendous limitation.

 

[BD2003]

Unfortunately we're apparently not gonna get anything like that capability with the way they programmed it. Metro and desktop are oil and water.

 

[Pia]

That's the main problem I see with Metro. There is no middle ground between pinning the tiles you use often to the start screen and easily navigating to programs that aren't pinned. Clutter or sparse is your only choice.

I don't understand what kind of middle ground you are looking for. Just pin everything you want to click-launch. Since you are free to lay out and group the tiles however you like, don't lay them out in a way you find cluttered or sparse. In comparison, old menu is cluttered as hell and gives you no choice.

Covering the entire desktop.

Since the alternative is to waste screen space, that's a good thing.

And that's not even to mention that the current start menu stays organized and uncluttered by nature without me having to do much of anything.

Huh? You don't have to do anything to the start screen (although you'd be silly to not spend five minutes initially setting it up as you like). Automatically added tiles go to the back, so they don't disturb your setup or force you to do anything. The old equivalents of removing and moving tiles - deleting unwanted shortcuts cluttering desktop and quicklaunch if an install decided to create them, pinning stuff in taskbar, pinning stuff in quicklaunch, pinning stuff in start menu, etc. - are far more of a hassle and make no sense.

The automatic "organization" of the old menu is almost completely useless. It hides all the stuff you may care about in a nested folder hierarchy which you typically don't care about even slightly. There's no useful ordering. (Why should I have to remember which publisher released FEAR in order to start the damn game? Do Microsoft's and Microprose's apps have something in common since their folders are next to each other in the "organized" menu?) The menu is actually terribly cluttered. The only reason the clutter isn't obvious is how the menu forces you to peep inside only through a tiny window and click through the meaningless hierarchy to get to anything. Imagine all the contents of the old start menu spread evenly throughout the screen (which would actually be more efficient); then imagine trying to find something from there.

 

[Gonad the Barbarian]

I don't understand what kind of middle ground you are looking for. Just pin everything you want to click-launch. Since you are free to lay out and group the tiles however you like, don't lay them out in a way you find cluttered or sparse. In comparison, old menu is cluttered as hell and gives you no choice.

I want to be able to click-launch everything, from one centralized location.

Since the alternative is to waste screen space, that's a good thing.

I don't need 23 diagonal inches of start screen.

Huh? You don't have to do anything to the start screen (although you'd be silly to not spend five minutes initially setting it up as you like). Automatically added tiles go to the back, so they don't disturb your setup or force you to do anything. The old equivalents of removing and moving tiles - deleting unwanted shortcuts cluttering desktop and quicklaunch if an install decided to create them, pinning stuff in taskbar, pinning stuff in quicklaunch, pinning stuff in start menu, etc. - are far more of a hassle and make no sense.

The automatic "organization" of the old menu is almost completely useless. It hides all the stuff you may care about in a nested folder hierarchy which you typically don't care about even slightly. There's no useful ordering. (Why should I have to remember which publisher released FEAR in order to start the damn game? Do Microsoft's and Microprose's apps have something in common since their folders are next to each other in the "organized" menu?) The menu is actually terribly cluttered. The only reason the clutter isn't obvious is how the menu forces you to peep inside only through a tiny window and click through the meaningless hierarchy to get to anything. Imagine all the contents of the old start menu spread evenly throughout the screen (which would actually be more efficient); then imagine trying to find something from there.

Yeah, hierarchical and alphabetical sorting, frequently run programs automatically pinned to the front, centralized location to launch all your programs, maintaining visual of one program while launching another, who needs it. In politics there is a saying, if you're explaining then you're losing. I see MS, you, and others defending W8 and Metro specifically doing a lot of explaining.

 

[FM2n]

DUDES. I never thought I'd say this, but I'm starting to enjoy using Windows 8!

 

[gammaray]

DUDES. I never thought I'd say this, but I'm starting to enjoy using Windows 8!

please tell us what you enjoy over windows 7 ?

 

[Pia]

I want to be able to click-launch everything, from one centralized location.

That would be the start screen.

I don't need 23 diagonal inches of start screen.

I do, and I certainly can't use any of the space outside the old start menu while using the old start menu. Making things fast to identify, fast to click and fast to navigate with the mouse takes space.

Yeah, hierarchical and alphabetical sorting, frequently run programs automatically pinned to the front, centralized location to launch all your programs, maintaining visual of one program while launching another, who needs it. In politics there is a saying, if you're explaining then you're losing. I see MS, you, and others defending W8 and Metro specifically doing a lot of explaining.

You only get "hierarchical sorting" that is of any use if you manually rearrange the stuff you have in start menu, which is tedious, not done by 99% of Windows users and I think also breaks uninstalls. So what you are left with is an alphabetical list in a tiny box, and an automatic list of frequently used programs. I think a live tile can replicate the latter in Win8, but there isn't much need for it anymore when you can click directly on almost anything you want to launch.

Can you explain what kind of excessive housekeeping you are forced to do in the start screen, and what makes that worse than the old start menu / quicklaunch / taskbar / desktop housekeeping?

 

[gmaster456]

DUDES. I never thought I'd say this, but I'm starting to enjoy using Windows 8!

I feel the same way. Once you get used to it, it's really actually quite good.
Especially when you customize it in a way that works for you. I'm going to get flamed up the butthole for this (if you disagree with me, please be respectful) but I actually think that this is a solid OS for power users. And yes I do use my computer for actual work and yes I am a power user. I also spend more time at my workstation in a day that most people do in a week.

My somewhat customized start screen.

Desktop Mode isn't bad either and once you know what it does, you can use it nearly the same as you could with windows 7 aside from a few very subtle differences that really aren't worth the bitching and moaning.

Below is the Power User Start Menu that is also customizable. You can access it by using the shortcut Windows Key + X or by right clicking on the start button that comes up once you navigate to the lower left corner of the screen.

Keep in mind that this copy is in a VM. I will not be overwriting Windows 7 until the final release and that's if I get it before I get a new machine.

 

[gmaster456]

You can also remove all of the pre installed metro apps from the start screen if you want so there should be no reason why you feel like your "horsing around with social networks and photos". You can make the start screen look as barebones as you want.

 

[Pia]

Nice screenshots gmaster456.

Auto-generated tiles need a slight margin reduction across the board, I think. Labels in them need automatic scaling to prevent those ugly overflows. It would also be nice for the icons to scale to fill the leftover vertical space.

 

[gammaray]

I feel the same way. Once you get used to it, it's really actually quite good.

What i'd like to know is, in windows 7 you could put shortcuts on your welcome screen of everything you use often, just like the start up screen of windows 8 metro.

How is this better?

I mean i ALWAYS liked to have nothing on my desktop background, other than i cool picture.

why would i want a bunch of tiles when i boot on?

the principle of windows is like a file dresser. you open it and then you look thru your folders and then files, its pretty logical and easy to organize.

I don't see the need - as a desktop user - to replace windows 7 by windows 8 so far.

 

[gmaster456]

What i'd like to know is, in windows 7 you could put shortcuts on your welcome screen of everything you use often, just like the start up screen of windows 8 metro.

How is this better?

I mean i ALWAYS liked to have nothing on my desktop background, other than i cool picture.

why would i want a bunch of tiles when i boot on?

the principle of windows is like a file dresser. you open it and then you look thru your folders and then files, its pretty logical and easy to organize.

I don't see the need - as a desktop user - to replace windows 7 by windows 8 so far.

When/If I get Windows 8, my desktop will look like it does now in windows 7, aside from maybe a different Background. I too, like a clean desktop.

Also, what about keeping your files organized? You still get libraries and they have stayed exactly the same as Windows 7.

It could also very well be that you do not end up seeing a need to get Windows 8. Your not the only one.

 

[Pia]

Also, what about keeping your files organized? You still get libraries and they have stayed exactly the same as Windows 7.

These libraries, the magic stuff associated with them (when is it "Documents" and when is it "My Documents"?) and the way Windows Explorer likes to pretend the user's home folder doesn't exist are aggravating to me and I don't really understand why they have special status. Can anyone shed a light on that?

I have an accustomed way of arranging stuff in folders, based on the home folder, which I use on every platform. Windows feels like it really hates that somehow.

 

[Dominato3r]

Have any of you guys loaded it up Win 8 on a second machine to see how the settings sync over?

 

[gmaster456]

By home folder are you refering to something like this?

The Documents Library and the My Documents folder in the Home Folder are both the same thing. They Just have different names.

 

[Pia]

By home folder are you refering to something like this?

Yep, what else would I mean?

Note how there is no indication that the home folder even exists in Explorer. When you click on any of the items on the left side which are physically inside the home folder, you don't get breadcrumbs like Home > Desktop. The picture of the file system Explorer is trying to paint for you is one where these weird unchangeable arbitrary containers dictated by Microsoft - Desktop, Documents, etc. - float around in space separate from each other. In contrast, pretty much any other file manager on Windows and elsewhere just shows you the stuff as it is inside the home folder.

The Documents Library and the My Documents folder in the Home Folder are both the same thing. They Just have different names.

Yes, I'm aware of that. I just don't why it has different names in different contexts and I think it, as well as hiding the home folder, is highly confusing.

 

[gmaster456]

Yep, what else would I mean?

Note how there is no indication that the home folder even exists in Explorer. When you click on any of the items on the left side which are physically inside the home folder, you don't get breadcrumbs like Home > Desktop. The picture of the file system Explorer is trying to paint for you is one where these weird unchangeable arbitrary containers dictated by Microsoft - Desktop, Documents, etc. - float around in space separate from each other. In contrast, pretty much any other file manager on Windows and elsewhere just shows you the stuff as it is inside the home folder.
Yes, I'm aware of that. I just don't why it has different names in different contexts and I think it, as well as hiding the home folder, is highly confusing.

Make your own Library called the home Folder
Right Click on the Home Folder and click include in library. Then click create new library.

And There it is. Un "hidden" and easily accessible. You can also add it to the start screen.

You can also include it in any other library if you choose to do so.

 

[Pia]

I know I can drag the home folder into favorites (why would I make it a library?). I did that a long time ago, just before giving up on using Explorer.

I just don't understand why Microsoft has chosen to hide the home folder, and why they have chosen to create these confusing libraries in the first place.

Apple seems to do just fine showing the home folder and offering a few default regular folders.

 

[gmaster456]

I know I can drag the home folder into favorites (why would I make it a library?). I did that a long time ago, just before giving up on using Explorer.

I just don't understand why Microsoft has chosen to hide the home folder, and why they have chosen to create these confusing libraries in the first place.

Apple seems to do just fine showing the home folder and offering a few default regular folders.

I guess I just don't understand how Libraries are confusing.

 

[Pia]

I guess I just don't understand how Libraries are confusing.

Well, a very large portion of users do not understand folder hierarchy and cannot navigate it. Another very large portion of users can navigate between some familiar folders with a combination of memorization and trial and error, but also do not understand folder hierarchy.

Libraries are an abstract concept building on folders. I would be surprised if more than a single digit percentage of Windows users knew what libraries are and customized them. I dare you to explain the point of libraries to that average user who, on their good days, (and I may be charitable here) understands folder hierarchy.

Unfortunately the libraries do not even have a point in their default state. In order for them to be useful, the user would have to customize them. This is the core of why default libraries instead of default folders are terrible. The people capable of benefiting from libraries will know to make one when they need one. For the rest, the default libraries have no upside, while having the downside of adding to cognitive load and frustration.

 

[FM2n]

Why didn't I think of this before? And why hasn't windows thought of this too?

THINK ABOUT IT DUDES!

In Windows 7, when you when you click on the start button, MOST of the time, you run stuff off the Recent list.

They need to have the option in metro start to store Recent programs as well! Most of the time, it's a handful of apps that one runs anyways!