Will the UAW get Ford too?

[Adrenaline]

The UAW did not bankrupt GM and Chrysler. Those companies being horribly run by upper management that are more greedy than the UAW workers as a whole caused the companies to go belly up. GM was so used to having their high market share (was as high as 48% at one time and slowly went down from what I recall) and thought selling the same old crap would suffice over time. They both had horrible reliability for a while. Any company that agrees to outrageous pay and benefits has to be making money. They did it for so long that it came back to bite them in the butt. GM ripped off the American public for so long I have no pity for them. Their "pay what we pay" campaign proved how badly they rip people off. I was seeing $8,000 off a $32,000 vehicle for employees and you bet your bottom dollar that GM is STILL making money off that sale.

You want me to have pity for a company that makes BILLIONS by ripping off the American public with crap reliability for decades (it has gotten better recently) and despise a union that went with the flow of GM and Chrysler demanding that their pay go up as the company profits went up? Then their profits go down and instead of blaming themself for poor management, poor reliability and price gouging their customers, they go and blame the problem 100% on the people who build their cars which account for less than 10% of the cost of the car (I heard it quoted this low on the news during all the bankruptcy stuff it may be more but can't be that much more.)

I wish FORD the best of luck with the UAW but they can't do crap until they can get to a bargaining table again and see where things are. I hope their upper management are all willing to make the sacrifices they will ask of their hourly workers.

 

[Pneumothorax]

The thread title of will the UAW get Ford too is arrogant, false, misleading, and pre supposes its the UAW that killed GM and Chrysler. And therefore its the duty of UAW members to work for no compensation or pension just so GM stock holder can be happy. While we are at it, lets bring back slavery.

And the same time, we must realize that the compensation packages of all domestic auto producers, are basically the same in pay, pension, and health benefits. And it applies equally to outfits like Ford & GM, or Toyota and Honda.

The difference is in how long they have been operating in the USA. Its now a yes, Toyota, Honda and other foreign competition can price undercut traditional domestic makers like Ford, GM, and Chrysler by $2000 per vehicle because of reduced pension and health care costs. But when those Toyota and Honda workers start to retire in 10 years or so, the costs of Toyota and Honda vehicles will rise dramatically as those legacy costs kick in, and then the cost inequity will vanish.

But we must realize that health care reform can address some of those UAW health issues also.

You do realize that since Honda (and soon Toyota) don't employ UAW workers that they're not beholden to ridiculous pension benefits and won't be stuck in the same hole as the big 3?

 

[Darwin333]

The thread title of will the UAW get Ford too is arrogant, false, misleading, and pre supposes its the UAW that killed GM and Chrysler. And therefore its the duty of UAW members to work for no compensation or pension just so GM stock holder can be happy. While we are at it, lets bring back slavery.

And the same time, we must realize that the compensation packages of all domestic auto producers, are basically the same in pay, pension, and health benefits. And it applies equally to outfits like Ford & GM, or Toyota and Honda.

The difference is in how long they have been operating in the USA. Its now a yes, Toyota, Honda and other foreign competition can price undercut traditional domestic makers like Ford, GM, and Chrysler by $2000 per vehicle because of reduced pension and health care costs. But when those Toyota and Honda workers start to retire in 10 years or so, the costs of Toyota and Honda vehicles will rise dramatically as those legacy costs kick in, and then the cost inequity will vanish.

But we must realize that health care reform can address some of those UAW health issues also.

Obviously you failed 6th grade math. Brush up on the law of exponents and then try to explain exactly how Honda and Toyota's legacy costs will catch up to those of Ford in the next 10 years or so.

While your at it, explain exactly how "legacy costs" are sustainable for any business model (especially business that experiences very large/quick growth and then must scale back during non-growth periods). Over the long run the math catches up to you.

 

[sandorski]

It's ok to be Anti-American, if Hate of Unions is involved.

 

[cubeless]

http://www.nasdaq.com/aspx/stock-ma...poses-to-further-trim-cadillachealth-plan-tax

Harry Reid has plans to tax "cadillac" insurance plans.

anyone want to bet a nickel that a last minute amendment will exempt union medical plans from taxes??? or that it's 'within the power of the administrator' to make that judgement at some point down the road???

 

[Darwin333]

It's ok to be Anti-American, if Hate of Unions is involved.

Lacking basic math skills is very much American.

When you pay for labor that no longer produces AND have to pay for new labor (to replace the labor you are still paying for) costs will continuously rise. As long as you have growth in business you can play this game but the more you grow the more labor you require the more labor you require the more you will eventually be paying them for zero production, the more growth you need to cover the costs.... rinse and repeat

What happens if you go through a period of no or low growth? Kaboom. The math doesn't lie.

Granted, the big 3 had/have other problems as well, and the math works equally for management as it does rank and file but it does not change the fact that it is not sustainable. Hell, the damned government can't figure out how to do it over the long run and they don't have to convince people to give them money (or sell them anything).

 

[spidey07]

anyone want to bet a nickel that a last minute amendment will exempt union medical plans from taxes??? or that it's 'within the power of the administrator' to make that judgement at some point down the road???

The insurance these guys who work for auto manufacturers get is some of the best. I can guarantee you they would be considered "Cadillac" plans. I can guarantee you they will be exempt from the penalties/taxes as well. It would hurt the dem base too much.

 

[sandorski]

Lacking basic math skills is very much American.

When you pay for labor that no longer produces AND have to pay for new labor (to replace the labor you are still paying for) costs will continuously rise. As long as you have growth in business you can play this game but the more you grow the more labor you require the more labor you require the more you will eventually be paying them for zero production, the more growth you need to cover the costs.... rinse and repeat

What happens if you go through a period of no or low growth? Kaboom. The math doesn't lie.

Granted, the big 3 had/have other problems as well, and the math works equally for management as it does rank and file but it does not change the fact that it is not sustainable. Hell, the damned government can't figure out how to do it over the long run and they don't have to convince people to give them money (or sell them anything).

That's all fine and good, if the Unions were refusing to make Concessions. They have not refused to do so however, but despite their Concessions the Anti-Union crowd keeps criticizing them as if they were demanding the Opposite.

 

[charrison]

That's all fine and good, if the Unions were refusing to make Concessions. They have not refused to do so however, but despite their Concessions the Anti-Union crowd keeps criticizing them as if they were demanding the Opposite.

Well union broke from the pattern bargaining(the big 3 get the basic deal from UAW) that has occurred over the last several decades. Ford has its act together, but the union cant let them make money either so they dont get the same deal as gm/chrysler.

 

[woodie1]

That's all fine and good, if the Unions were refusing to make Concessions. They have not refused to do so however, but despite their Concessions the Anti-Union crowd keeps criticizing them as if they were demanding the Opposite.

Wrong. The UAW has refused to give Ford the same concessions that they granted Government Motors. The Ford UAW management was in favor of some give-back but the rank and file said no. Ford labor costs are now higher that any other USA auto builder.

 

[sandorski]

Well union broke from the pattern bargaining(the big 3 get the basic deal from UAW) that has occurred over the last several decades. Ford has its act together, but the union cant let them make money either so they dont get the same deal as gm/chrysler.

Ford is making Money. What's the problem?

 

[sandorski]

Wrong. The UAW has refused to give Ford the same concessions that they granted Government Motors. The Ford UAW management was in favor of some give-back but the rank and file said no. Ford labor costs are now higher that any other USA auto builder.

Different situations. The conceded Wages as needed where needed. They made big Concessions for Ford, just bigger concessions for GM.

 

[charrison]

Ford is making Money. What's the problem?

They are also heavily in debt.

 

[sandorski]

They are also heavily in debt.

...and?

 

[Darwin333]

That's all fine and good, if the Unions were refusing to make Concessions. They have not refused to do so however, but despite their Concessions the Anti-Union crowd keeps criticizing them as if they were demanding the Opposite.

Whats that got to do with it?

I am arguing that the entire model is flawed and regardless of small concessions here and there they will eventually go bankrupt. Its simply a matter of time.

Ford is making Money. What's the problem?

Thats exactly what led to GM's bankruptcy. Who gives a shit about the math right? We are making money today so its all gravy, we will worry about tomorrow later. Its not the expenses they are paying today out of the money they are making today that is the problem. It is the money they are promising to pay tomorrow from money they have not made yet.

Same thing with the CEOs handing each other buckets of money, its isn't sustainable yet here you are arguing that it should be continued.

 

[Darwin333]

...and?

Yup, nothing to do with the financial situation of a company.

 

[sandorski]

Whats that got to do with it?

I am arguing that the entire model is flawed and regardless of small concessions here and there they will eventually go bankrupt. Its simply a matter of time.



Thats exactly what led to GM's bankruptcy. Who gives a shit about the math right? We are making money today so its all gravy, we will worry about tomorrow later. Its not the expenses they are paying today out of the money they are making today that is the problem. It is the money they are promising to pay tomorrow from money they have not made yet.

Same thing with the CEOs handing each other buckets of money, its isn't sustainable yet here you are arguing that it should be continued.

I agree, somewhat, there. HealthCare Reform will take care of a lot of those expenses. Not all mind you, but a major part of them.

However, your analysis of the situation is rather disingenuous and could be applied to any Company any where. You can't negotiate(Individually or as a Union) Wages/Benefits based on what may be in some distant Future. You negotiate based upon the current situation. When that situation changes, then so does the Wage/Benefit package. That goes both ways though, Increases and Decreases.

 

[sandorski]

Yup, nothing to do with the financial situation of a company.

You going to make severe Concessions because your Company has Debt?

 

[evident]

buy american AND screw the UAW, get a honda accord.

 

[charrison]

You going to make severe Concessions because your Company has Debt?

Just because ford generated a profit last quarter does not mean they are a healthy company.

 

[werepossum]

wow you can read collective minds and reduce something to such simple terms Why I bet you could also fix world hunger and create world peace. ohh also could you channel Micheal Jackson for me. I want to ask him something. :awe:

I too can read collective minds. Michael says "Yes, you can touch it, if you'll dig me up. Hee hee!"

Great graphic, Shiner, I am SO stealing that. Thanks!

 

[Darwin333]

You going to make severe Concessions because your Company has Debt?

You still don't understand, it doesn't matter if I agree with concessions or not. Eventually either they will all be left with no jobs and no benefits or the government will pick up the tab because a private company promised what sixth grade math states they eventually won't be able to pay.

Debt has the ability to drastically speed up the process.

 

[sandorski]

Just because ford generated a profit last quarter does not mean they are a healthy company.

I agree, however it doesn't mean the Union is "bad" for not conceding the same.

 

[sandorski]

You still don't understand, it doesn't matter if I agree with concessions or not. Eventually either they will all be left with no jobs and no benefits or the government will pick up the tab because a private company promised what sixth grade math states they eventually won't be able to pay.

Debt has the ability to drastically speed up the process.

Incorrect. You assume too much.

 

[Darwin333]

Incorrect. You assume too much.

The laws of mathematics are assuming too much?

Your cost of labor increase exponentially every time someone retires. If you can show me how to profit doing that over the long run in real world (great growth times and no/- growth times) and I will make us both a trillion dollars.

The nature of our boom/bust cycles alone makes it impossible as you are currently seeing. Company A ramps up production in order to meet demand during time of very high demand. Demand severly drops off causing company A to dramatically reduce production but company A only reduces a fraction of the cost from the reduced production.

Its alot like a ponzi scheme. It requires constant growth to survive and that just isn't possible. If you think it is, I have a few investments you should consider that are guaranteed to make money!