Will the UAW get Ford too?

[charrison]

I agree, however it doesn't mean the Union is "bad" for not conceding the same.

Is the union bad for breaking decades old pattern bargaining which more or less kept the big 3s labor cost the same?

 

[woodie1]

As I recall Uncle Sam told the UAW that if they wanted the government to help the 2 failing auto companies that eventually filed for bankruptcy the UAW would have to accept that the good old days were over and give up their golden goose. The UAW did not go quietly and fought tooth and nail to keep things as they were. Eventually the 800# gorilla prevailed.

 

[sandorski]

The laws of mathematics are assuming too much?

Your cost of labor increase exponentially every time someone retires. If you can show me how to profit doing that over the long run in real world (great growth times and no/- growth times) and I will make us both a trillion dollars.

The nature of our boom/bust cycles alone makes it impossible as you are currently seeing. Company A ramps up production in order to meet demand during time of very high demand. Demand severly drops off causing company A to dramatically reduce production but company A only reduces a fraction of the cost from the reduced production.

Its alot like a ponzi scheme. It requires constant growth to survive and that just isn't possible. If you think it is, I have a few investments you should consider that are guaranteed to make money!

Laws of Mathematics? Which Law would that be? Pythagoras Law of Ford's Failure?

Things change, you have no idea what Todays agreement will result Years from now. Nor do you know what things will change between Now and Years from now.

 

[sandorski]

Is the union bad for breaking decades old pattern bargaining which more or less kept the big 3s labor cost the same?

No

 

[sandorski]

As I recall Uncle Sam told the UAW that if they wanted the government to help the 2 failing auto companies that eventually filed for bankruptcy the UAW would have to accept that the good old days were over and give up their golden goose. The UAW did not go quietly and fought tooth and nail to keep things as they were. Eventually the 800# gorilla prevailed.

Half true. The Unions had already made huge concessions to help the Big 3. The Government merely demanded even further concessions.

 

[woodie1]

Half true. The Unions had already made huge concessions to help the Big 3. The Government merely demanded even further concessions.

Fail.

 

[sandorski]

Fail.

negative

 

[charrison]

No

It just shows them to be out of touch and greedy.

 

[sandorski]

It just shows them to be out of touch and greedy.

Not really. They get the best they can for their Members. It just shows that they are flexible.

 

[charrison]

Not really. They get the best they can for their Members. It just shows that they are flexible.

If the industry was healthy, but it is not.

 

[sandorski]

If the industry was healthy, but it is not.

They have no obligation to treat the Big 3 as 1 Block. There's nothing "wrong" with what they did.

 

[tcsenter]

The thread title of will the UAW get Ford too is arrogant, false, misleading, and pre supposes its the UAW that killed GM and Chrysler.

And that would be an accurate presupposition. The problem has always been that domestic automakers cannot compete because of the UAW, not that they don't know how to engineer or develop good vehicles, nor that domestic automakers somehow manage to hire only the highly qualified auto industry executives who are incompetent, while Toyota and Honda have some 'magic' fairy dust which make their executives or engineers really good. GM, Ford, and Chrysler don't hire "different" auto executives, nor do those auto executives do anything "differently", than foreign automakers.

Riddle me this: Why did EVERY foreign automaker who came to the USA deliberately locate their plants in regions of the USA to avoid the UAW like the plague? Because they have better auto executives down South? Because they have better engineers down there? hahahahaha....no.

Is it because foreign automakers are anti-union? Hardly. Japanese and European auto companies have unions back home, and those unions are even stronger than the UAW is now. Japanese and European auto makers have a long history of mutually favorable relations with their unions. So why would foreign companies who've only had mutually beneficial histories with strong labor unions come to the United States and avoid American unions like the plague?

Its because there was a cancer of militant anti-capitalism and anti-company ideology within the UAW, which took great pride in being hostile towards any interest other than its own. The UAW spent nearly two generations between the 1940s and 1970s building a "core" of militant soldiers which it could command into battle at will, indoctrinating them with sworn hostility against "the enemy", so that the UAW could get its way.

The thing about building an army of guerrilla soldiers who have sworn unceasing hostility to an enemy, is that you can't just turn it "off" when you want to. You can't just say, "OK everyone, remember all that shit we've been telling you for the past 35 or 40 years about striking a blow for Solidarity, never giving in to the company's demands unless they buy our cooperation, never compromising? Well, things have changed. We have inflicted heavy if not near-fatal injury upon the entire American auto industry's ability to compete with these imports. We need to change our culture now or else we'll kill the domestic auto industry for good. So just forget all that stuff we've been telling you for 40 years and be different starting tomorrow. OK? kthnxbai!"

It doesn't work like that! Even when the UAW saw the writing on the wall, it could not just tell everyone to ignore what the UAW had been saying for 40 years without losing the trust and confidence of that militant core. The only thing you can do is wait for that 'old guard' to retire, so that your stance away from unceasing hostility to spirit of cooperation will be better received by a new generation who wasn't subjected to the brainwashing and indoctrination of old. But even then, its more like two generations, because a lot of those militant soldiers will have passed their ideology to their children. So it takes nearly two generations to get rid of this culture the UAW deliberately created.

In the 1970s through the 1990s, the UAW used to disparage Japanese unions (and their culture, bordering on racism) for their spirit of cooperation and feeling of shared interest in the economic health and competitiveness of their companies, and their pride in the quality of their products. The UAW just didn't give a shit. I know, I'm from the "birthplace of the UAW" (Flint, MI) and have heard dozens upon dozens of UAW members laughing and crowing about how they "stick it to the company" for every perceived slight, whether actual or imagined, including sabotage to produce work stoppages (thus erasing any productivity gains) and deliberately damaging vehicles (so the company would be forced to incur the added cost of repairing them before leaving the plant).

Are or were all UAW members like this? Absolutely not, many of them were horrified by it but couldn't speak-out because this rotten cancerous core within the UAW had substantial influence. They had "ways" of dealing with members who didn't tow the line (you know, the 'company men' and 'union busters').

Didn't Michael Moore tell people any of this in his anachronistic union propaganda flick "Roger and Me"? Hmm, I wonder why...

But we must realize that health care reform can address some of those UAW health issues also.

As for health care costs, watch the employees file-out of a unionized Japanese factory at the end of shift; business casual dress, clean cut, college educated, none of them overweight. Watch the employees file-out of a unionized American factory; beer stained Harley T-shirts, crusty beards, tattoos, blue jeans, lucky if everyone graduated high school, massive pot bellies, smoking or chewing.

Gosh, you think there could be a difference in the health care and insurance costs between two cultures, one of which is very healthy and active, the other is over-indulgent in fat rich foods, tobacco, drugs, etc.?

 

[BlahBlahYouToo]

well said.

 

[Darwin333]

Laws of Mathematics? Which Law would that be? Pythagoras Law of Ford's Failure?

Things change, you have no idea what Todays agreement will result Years from now. Nor do you know what things will change between Now and Years from now.

As I told you already, you should brush up on the law of exponents.


Here is a simple exercise for you. Lets see what happens when we start with a penny and double it every day. Doesn't sound like much does it, but lets see what it looks like over the long run.

Day 1: $.01
Day 2: $.02
Day 3: $.04
Day 4: $.08
Day 5: $.16
Day 6: $.32
Day 7: $.64
Day 8: $1.28
Day 9: $2.56
Day 10: $5.12
Day 11: $10.24
Day 12: $20.48
Day 13: $40.96
Day 14: $81.92
Day 15: $163.84
Day 16: $327.68
Day 17: $655.36
Day 18: $1,310.72
Day 19: $2,621.44
Day 20: $5,242.88
Day 21: $10,485.76
Day 22: $20,971.52
Day 23: $41,943.04
Day 24: $83,886.08
Day 25: $167,772.16
Day 26: $335,544.32
Day 27: $671,088.64
Day 28: $1,342,177.28
Day 29: $2,684,354.56
Day 30: $5,368,709.12



Look the numbers up yourself. Just a few years ago GM was paying benefits to over 1.1 million people that no longer produced anything for the company. Around the same time they had roughly 250,000 employees actually producing. Are you honestly trying to argue that is a sustainable business model?

 

[zephyrprime]

The difference is in how long they have been operating in the USA. Its now a yes, Toyota, Honda and other foreign competition can price undercut traditional domestic makers like Ford, GM, and Chrysler by $2000 per vehicle because of reduced pension and health care costs. But when those Toyota and Honda workers start to retire in 10 years or so, the costs of Toyota and Honda vehicles will rise dramatically as those legacy costs kick in, and then the cost inequity will vanish.

But we must realize that health care reform can address some of those UAW health issues also.

Those Toyota and Honda workers don't get pensions and retirement health care. They get 401k like everyone else nowadays. So, no matter how long Toyota and Honda operate in the US, they will not have the legacy costs that American automakers have.

 

[sandorski]

As I told you already, you should brush up on the law of exponents.


Here is a simple exercise for you. Lets see what happens when we start with a penny and double it every day. Doesn't sound like much does it, but lets see what it looks like over the long run.

Day 1: $.01
Day 2: $.02
Day 3: $.04
Day 4: $.08
Day 5: $.16
Day 6: $.32
Day 7: $.64
Day 8: $1.28
Day 9: $2.56
Day 10: $5.12
Day 11: $10.24
Day 12: $20.48
Day 13: $40.96
Day 14: $81.92
Day 15: $163.84
Day 16: $327.68
Day 17: $655.36
Day 18: $1,310.72
Day 19: $2,621.44
Day 20: $5,242.88
Day 21: $10,485.76
Day 22: $20,971.52
Day 23: $41,943.04
Day 24: $83,886.08
Day 25: $167,772.16
Day 26: $335,544.32
Day 27: $671,088.64
Day 28: $1,342,177.28
Day 29: $2,684,354.56
Day 30: $5,368,709.12



Look the numbers up yourself. Just a few years ago GM was paying benefits to over 1.1 million people that no longer produced anything for the company. Around the same time they had roughly 250,000 employees actually producing. Are you honestly trying to argue that is a sustainable business model?

Gibberish.

 

[tcsenter]

Three words: UAW Jobs Bank. That's all anyone needs to know!

 

[Darwin333]

Gibberish.

I would be happy to send you my daughters math book at the end of the year if you PM me your address. I'll even cover the shipping.

 

[sandorski]

I would be happy to send you my daughters math book at the end of the year if you PM me your address. I'll even cover the shipping.

What does doubling a penny(or any amount) repeatedly Prove? Nothing. Gibberish argument.

 

[Infohawk]

I agree with Cad. Ford should just chuck the union wholesale. I wonder how much inventory they have to hold them over while they re-train the new hires.

 

[Darwin333]

What does doubling a penny(or any amount) repeatedly Prove? Nothing. Gibberish argument.

Increasing production costs because the amount of people you are paying NOT to produce will continue to grow and will eventually get out of control.

Nevermind, I have explained this many times already. You either already get it and don't have a better argument against or you need a better elementary math teacher than me.

 

[sandorski]

Increasing production costs because the amount of people you are paying NOT to produce will continue to grow and will eventually get out of control.

Nevermind, I have explained this many times already. You either already get it and don't have a better argument against or you need a better elementary math teacher than me.

You assume.

 

[Darwin333]

You assume.

Nope. Real world results, that I have already posted, prove my argument. What do you have?

 

[sandorski]

Nope. Real world results, that I have already posted, prove my argument. What do you have?

Your argument Proves nothing. It assumes all will stay the same until some point of failure. It is nonsense.

 

[feralkid]

I agree with Cad. Ford should just chuck the union wholesale. I wonder how much inventory they have to hold them over while they re-train the new hires.

Perhaps they should give it a try.

At least people would quit whining because the union has better negotiating skills than poor little management.