Wikileaks.org releases 90,000 secret US war documents

[BoberFett]

To which post are you replying? Mine? I never said anyone should be shot, so no. Did their oath they swore and you claim they're breaking specify they should be shot if they break it? If so, your reply is relevant to my post, otherwise, it is not.

Everyone with a security clearance understands the consequences of their actions if they break that clearance. Period.

Oh, you said they should be in jail. It's just the rest of the mob saying they should be shot.

As I said, politicians break their oaths every day. Why are they not in jail?

 

[Deeko]

Just espousing my opinion, based on my experiences and academic studies. I find your opinions (and everyone who agrees with it) deeply, morally offensive, and I'm not going to refrain from telling you so. I don't particularly care what you, or anyone else, thinks about that.

I swore an oath, and I'm holding to it.

It is amusing that you find it deeply, morally offensive that I feel someone who violates a legal contract should face the existing consequences of said violation.

All of you attacking me are ignoring my comments on the proper way to deal with such a situation. Change the country through elected officials, as the system is intended, not by committing crimes.

 

[Deeko]

Oh, you said they should be in jail. It's just the rest of the mob saying they should be shot.

As I said, politicians break their oaths every day. Why are they not in jail?

When you get a clearance, you agree that violating the clearance amounts to treason and is subject to penalties accordingly. These politicians violating their oaths - do they contain similar language? If so, then they should go to jail if its proven they have indeed broken said oath. I'm not contradicting myself there, and I'm still not sure how this is relevant to the thread. Do you think that because some people get away with crimes, everyone should?

 

[Deeko]

He doesn't deserve jail time, he's required to receive jail time under the current system. That system is wrong, and should be abolished. I'm all for him being willing to sit in jail, as long as the people rise up, remove his jailers, change the rules, and release him as a hero of positive change.

I'm fine with this too - assuming they 'rise up and remove his jailers' in the way I already mentioned (the election/legislative/judicial systems). Just so long as the person committing the original crime understand that at the time, it is indeed a crime, and they signed a contract agreeing to it.

 

[PrinceofWands]

It is amusing that you find it deeply, morally offensive that I feel someone who violates a legal contract should face the existing consequences of said violation.

All of you attacking me are ignoring my comments on the proper way to deal with such a situation. Change the country through elected officials, as the system is intended, not by committing crimes.

The Classification system prevents that from happening, by hiding elements of immoral or criminal activity from public knowledge. You won't get rid of the people responsible for the system without going outside the system to expose them. It's just that simple.

 

[Deeko]

The Classification system prevents that from happening, by hiding elements of immoral or criminal activity from public knowledge. You won't get rid of the people responsible for the system without going outside the system to expose them. It's just that simple.

Are you implying that there are top secret classified laws that prevent a President from removing, say, the chief of the CIA, or declassifying hordes of currently classified documents, or the legislature from writing a law that changes the classification structure to be more lenient/disallow certain things from being classified? Or are you just saying that because the people don't know about these things, that they won't vote for the correct politicians?

 

[Craig234]

When you get a clearance, you agree that violating the clearance amounts to treason and is subject to penalties accordingly. These politicians violating their oaths - do they contain similar language? If so, then they should go to jail if its proven they have indeed broken said oath. I'm not contradicting myself there, and I'm still not sure how this is relevant to the thread. Do you think that because some people get away with crimes, everyone should?

There is a context you are not appreciating to this, that the contract to protect secrets is for protecting *valid* secrets for *valid* policies - and we'll even throw in some wiggle room that doesn't mean 'policies you agree with', because more protection is needed than that, but at some point, there are policies outside 'valid'.

When you find the government has been lying to the public for years about war, you have a duty to the public not to be part of the lie and coverup.

'Voting them out' isn't adequate, when the acts are killing people daily and elections can be years away, the public lacks the secret information to make an informed vote.

When I was a kid and Ellsberg happened, my view was the absolutist 'he promised, he lied, he's a criminal'. You seem not to have gotten past that point.

And punishing people for doing the right thing is not only immoral to those people, it also causes great harm in preventing the whistleblowing from happening.

Our society isn't as simple as the civics books where everyone acts nicely and there's never a reason to whistleblow outside the system'. We should protect that.

The corrupt can get away with murder, gaming the system, abusing power, and we only have a limited number of things that help catch them and prevent it.

There's a certain common sense to exposing wrongdoing, to having an informed public even without a huge wrong.

Don't make me drag out analogies on exposing the holocaust to make the point that there are times not to respect secrets, when the people the secrets protect break public trust.

When JFK was approving the previous administration's Bay of Pigs plans, he asked the New York Times to bury info they had on it 'for national security', and they did. When it was a disaster, he said he wished they had not listened and exposed the truth, and it would have prevented a disaster. He warmed to the role of the press to keep the government honest after that, as a partner that could help with constructive criticism.

In every major incident I know of since 9/11, the military has put out misinformation - the female soldier caught and 'rescued' in the first days of Iraq, Pat Tillman, Abu Ghraib, depleted uranium, various civilian killings, on and on. There is a risk they think it's 'their job' to 'protect the mission' by preventing the negative effects the citizens finding the truth can have, and that's a risk to our democratic system and the public's rights.

 

[PrinceofWands]

Are you implying that there are top secret classified laws that prevent a President from removing, say, the chief of the CIA, or declassifying hordes of currently classified documents, or the legislature from writing a law that changes the classification structure to be more lenient/disallow certain things from being classified? Or are you just saying that because the people don't know about these things, that they won't vote for the correct politicians?

Bingo.

The politicians merely use the existing system to maintain, or increase, their power. Then they make tweaks every term, to allow them to abuse it even more (ie current wiretap stuff, etc).

 

[Lemon law]

I still have to regard these wicki leaks as another incarnation of the Pentagon papers, when the American people learned of the huge gaps between what the Government actually knew, and the bullshit propaganda those that knew better were telling to American people. I always prefer to know the truth, and find it astonishing that anyone would prefer propaganda.

But I for one would be overwhelmed and delusional if I thought that I could wade through 90,000+ documents, each on them multi page links, and come to any immediate valid conclusions. Which is why many journalistic entities have already assigned teams of analysts to look at the larger whole even as the larger whole is broken up into sub categories. And already we have some journalistic teams coming up with early conclusions other teams disagree with.

As for me, I will wait maybe weeks and months, before I have the unmitigated gall to say there are specific valuable things to be learned. Its a little too early to tell yet!

But has the American Government been lying to me, that is a no brainer yes, its been our life time experience, but as some of those liars are exposed, at least we can make sure they get their ass fired.

 

[cirrrocco]

Consequences will never be the same.

I lol'ed

 

[fuzzymitx]

This.

Maybe if our government wasn't so crooked, we wouldn't wonder why there are millions of secret documents.

Care to provide some enlightening examples?

 

[JSt0rm]

Any idea how long it will be until we get some information from these reports?

 

[BoberFett]

Care to provide some enlightening examples?

Are you saying that our politicians aren't crooked? Or that there aren't millions of secret documents?

 

[JohnOfSheffield]

Anyone involved in this should be prosecuted. This isn't whistleblower information, this is an ongoing operation and the documents contain militery strategies and information that can be used for propaganda by our enemy.

Shut the site down, arrest everyone involved.

 

[nobodyknows]

70,000 secrets yet they claim national security hasn't been compromised? LOL, this is proof we keep way too much stuff secret.

 

[JohnOfSheffield]

Are you saying that our politicians aren't crooked? Or that there aren't millions of secret documents?

Of course there are, if they were open they might inform our enemies of ways to breech our security.

Secrecy is sometimes neccessary, if you don't get that, i don't know what to say.

And no, i don't believe ALL politicians are crooked, i don't believe all Muslims are Jihadists or all Catholics are pedofiles either...

 

[JohnOfSheffield]

70,000 secrets yet they claim national security hasn't been compromised? LOL, this is proof we keep way too much stuff secret.

It's not 70 000 secrets, these 70k documents contain perhaps 10 major incidents and that is it.

It's clear that you have never been involved in anything militery wise and therefore you may be excused for not knowing that most of the filed paperwork is just "nothing happened" papers.

 

[bfdd]

The US, with the most advanced intelligence operations on the planet, spent $800 billion and counting to invade Iraq for non-existent WMDs? Uh huh.


Regardless of how bad the US military is with math, even they don't see the fiscal logic behind spending $300 billion to defeat 40,000 Afghanis with no navy, no air force, no tanks, etc.

There is very sound fiscal logic in invading two countries with trillions in oil and mineral deposits.

of course there's very sound fiscal logic to do that, to bad we didn't invade them for those reasons. where are the millions upon millions of barrels of oil coming out of iraq into the united states? they don't exist because that wasn't the point of the war. the reason for the iraq war is simple, killing saddam whatever justification they used for it is just bs. saddam tried to kill one of our presidents, his son came in and wanted to get revenge. i also believe we weren't legitimately mislead either and that some of the administration at the time fully believed there were WMDs.

 

[JohnOfSheffield]

of course there's very sound fiscal logic to do that, to bad we didn't invade them for those reasons. where are the millions upon millions of barrels of oil coming out of iraq into the united states? they don't exist because that wasn't the point of the war. the reason for the iraq war is simple, killing saddam whatever justification they used for it is just bs. saddam tried to kill one of our presidents, his son came in and wanted to get revenge. i also believe we weren't legitimately mislead either and that some of the administration at the time fully believed there were WMDs.

As the war in Afghanistan had come to a stalemate where only some troops and mostly air supported ones could even reach the Talibans which were at that point ONLY in one place the problem arised for the US and UK leadership "if this war ends here, we can't use the fear of terrorist attacks anymore" and so all troops were ordered off of the area, all air support canceled and we went to Iraq to fight a nation which was known to have WMD's, means to deliver them, UAV's and even nuclear devices (would you like the next sign to be a mushroom cloud over New York).

I say congrats to the US and UK leadership of the time you got exactly what you wanted and now the WOT is impossible to win.

I HONESTLY cannot understand why they would need to remove troops at such a crucial time if that wasn't their purpose.

 

[Craig234]

Anyone involved in this should be prosecuted. This isn't whistleblower information, this is an ongoing operation and the documents contain militery strategies and information that can be used for propaganda by our enemy.

Shut the site down, arrest everyone involved.

This is exposing the truth, this is showing massive amounts of information that should not be classified being so to protect the government against the people being informed, and this is showing the government lying to and misleading its bosses, the public, yet again as it does so consistently violating democracy and why fixes are needed for the people to get more of the truth.

The risk of info being used as propaganda by an enemy does not justify lying to citizens.

That sort of logic is how you gut the rights of the people, excuses for the government to act tyrannically.

I don't know what all has been exposed - maybe some things went too far, maybe not, and I understand the government can't exactly condone the release process here.

But the points I made are feedback from those who have seen the documents, and they are points regardless.

 

[JohnOfSheffield]

This is exposing the truth, this is showing massive amounts of information that should not be classified being so to protect the government against the people being informed, and this is showing the government lying to and misleading its bosses, the public, yet again as it does so consistently violating democracy and why fixes are needed for the people to get more of the truth.

The risk of info being used as propaganda by an enemy does not justify lying to citizens.

That sort of logic is how you gut the rights of the people, excuses for the government to act tyrannically.

I don't know what all has been exposed - maybe some things went too far, maybe not, and I understand the government can't exactly condone the release process here.

But the points I made are feedback from those who have seen the documents, and they are points regardless.

I don't think you have any clue what so ever of what you are trying to discuss here.

If it puts friendly troops in harms way, it's a fucking problem, if you don't think it is then you are not thinking straight.

If it was about the US and UK SS and politicians lying about things, i would have NO problem what so ever with it, in fact i would support that (the exposure of it) to the fullest of my ability.

But that is not what this is about, either you are too fucked up in the head to get that or you are really just ignorant and still talking about something you know nothing of.

 

[Lemon law]

JOS has to be the dumb fuck of the century to say" I say congrats to the US and UK leadership of the time you got exactly what you wanted and now the WOT is impossible to win.

I HONESTLY cannot understand why they would need to remove troops at such a crucial time if that wasn't their purpose. "

The point being, the US and UK leadership circa 2001 were about the most inept dumb fucks on the planet, Blair and GWB were so inept, that despite all of the US and UK huge military assets of both nations, but with inspired stupidity, managed, against all odds, to grasp defeat from the jaws of victory.

JOS, you might manage to grasp an iota of some forum sympathy if you had not supported past failed policy 1001%, and now all you are left with is saying we lost, but stay the course.

If Blair, Bush, and you had not been so stupid, we might have won instead, and as a matter of fact, we can still win in Afghanistan, but job one is to lose the stupidity of JOS, GWB, and Blair's successors.

Military propaganda can be a weapon of war, but as soon as the propagandist starts believing their own propaganda, that propaganda becomes a liability.

 

[JSt0rm]

Well LL JOS has always stated that the higher ups fucked up and didnt finish it.

but your point stands about inept dumbfucks running us and uk circa 2001 and I think you both can probably agree on that.

 

[fuzzymitx]

Are you saying that our politicians aren't crooked? Or that there aren't millions of secret documents?

I'm saying you are tossing around some nice FUD without any examples of classified documents protecting Politicians.

In case you question the need for classified material, perhaps you believe everyone should have access to Nuclear Weapons, Advanced Stealth technology, How to build and operate a super carrier (Nimitz and Ford Class), Advance Type 1 crypto, and who shot JFK (obvious sarcasm).

 

[JohnOfSheffield]

JOS has to be the dumb fuck of the century to say" I say congrats to the US and UK leadership of the time you got exactly what you wanted and now the WOT is impossible to win.

I HONESTLY cannot understand why they would need to remove troops at such a crucial time if that wasn't their purpose. "

The point being, the US and UK leadership circa 2001 were about the most inept dumb fucks on the planet, Blair and GWB were so inept, that despite all of the US and UK huge military assets of both nations, but with inspired stupidity, managed, against all odds, to grasp defeat from the jaws of victory.

JOS, you might manage to grasp an iota of some forum sympathy if you had not supported past failed policy 1001%, and now all you are left with is saying we lost, but stay the course.

If Blair, Bush, and you had not been so stupid, we might have won instead, and as a matter of fact, we can still win in Afghanistan, but job one is to lose the stupidity of JOS, GWB, and Blair's successors.

Military propaganda can be a weapon of war, but as soon as the propagandist starts believing their own propaganda, that propaganda becomes a liability.

You know, repeating what i just said with more words than i used isn't really a sign of anything but your sense of self importance, perhaps that is why you cannot quote still, you don't like others words, only your own.

If you cannot quote my entire post, don't use any of my words, it's dishonest, i've told you this about 50 times before. It's a request that is easy to follow, if you cannot honor that request, i suggest you ignore me because i will ignore you.

That we cannot win now is because of effort, we don't want to win, we could if we really wanted to and as far as i am concerned a dead Taliban is the ONLY kind of good Taliban, perhaps if you were less of a fucking monster you'd think so too.

See, i'm not the monster here, you are, you are the one defending those who torture and murder children for no other reason than that they don't comply with the demands of their fucked up version of a religion.