Why weren't Jewish people given part of Germany instead of religious land

[GTKeeper]

Culturally, the Poles were at least as anti-semitic as the Germans, possibly more so. This was also true of Ukrainians and the peoples of the Baltic States. People tend to assume that the Germans were the most anti-semitic culture because they are confusing the Nazis with the Germans in general. True enough, Germany was fairly anti-semitic before the Nazis, and became more so under Nazi propaganda, but Poles and other eastern Europeans were at least as anti-semitic, and today are definitely more so than Germans. Polish Jews who survived and tried to reintegrate into Poland after the war were not well received, and the vast majority ended up leaving for the U.S. or Israel as a result.

- wolf

I agree that Jews were not received kindly in eastern Europe post WWII. But to state that Poland is more anti-semitic than other countries is quite outlandish. Have you ever lived in Poland? Or been there?

One fact that cannot be disputed is that in terms of occupied nations, Poland had it worse than most and maybe even the worst out of all the countries involved in WWII. Almost 6 years of occupation, invasion by 2 countries (USSR and Germany) probably influenced attitudes a great deal. Not to mention the fact that the punishment for assisting a Jew was death not only to yourself but your entire family as well.

With that being said, Poland had one of the largest Jewish communities before WWII especially around Krakow. I don't think that would have been the case if Poland was inherently the most anti-semitic nation.

 

[Genx87]

Poland got raped in WWII. German and Soviet invasion, then extermination, then Soviet liberation only to be put under Moscows boot for 50 years.

 

[Moonbeam]

When God gives you a shit hole as the promised land you're stuck with it.

 

[preCRT]

I agree that Jews were not received kindly in eastern Europe post WWII. But to state that Poland is more anti-semitic than other countries is quite outlandish. Have you ever lived in Poland? Or been there?

One fact that cannot be disputed is that in terms of occupied nations, Poland had it worse than most and maybe even the worst out of all the countries involved in WWII. Almost 6 years of occupation, invasion by 2 countries (USSR and Germany) probably influenced attitudes a great deal. Not to mention the fact that the punishment for assisting a Jew was death not only to yourself but your entire family as well.

With that being said, Poland had one of the largest Jewish communities before WWII especially around Krakow. I don't think that would have been the case if Poland was inherently the most anti-semitic nation.

Jews in Poland had been protected by the King, and they were hated by the Polish peasants for generations. Many Poles needed no encouragement from the Nazis years later to kill Jews.

After the Nazis were driven out and before the Soviets could firmly establish peace there were still organized murders of Jews, or pogroms, in Poland, just as there had been for over a century in much of eastern Europe. The pogrom in Kielce was post war. No Nazis, just Poles.



ETA: My maternal grandmother came from Poland, we grew up hearing horror stories of what life was like there for Jews prior to 1920. Other than the few siblings that came to the US prior to 1939, her entire extended large family was wiped off the face of the earth by the Nazis...siblings, aunts, uncles, cousins...gone.

 

[Lemon law]

Maybe its time to try another way to look at the thread question.

But where does the other way of looking at it get us? Sure maybe it would have been better for the Europeans to set aside parts of Germany for the few surviving Jewish refugees the Europeans treated so shamelessly before WW2. And instead it was mainly the Europeans who concocted a brilliant plan to foist them off on the mid-east as the Arabs screamed Nimby and Europe avoided the same nimby. And look at the fine mess we are in 62 years later.

But of all the semiarid gin joint land in the whole world, why pick Israel?

Have you ever eaten dinner with American or foreign Jews? I was a whole six years old when I first heard that traditional pre dinner toast, of la Heim, next year in Israel. My six year old thinking went about as follows, why should an American Jew want to leave the prosperity of the USA to live in some garbage dump about as remote as Baghdad and be the starving people of China my mother always warned about when I did not eat everything on the plate. Ya I also knew Israel had something to do with the bible, and also knew Friday was a bad day to eat at my Roman Catholic friend's house. I never did like Fish.

But later when I started to understand world history, we have to all really admire the Jewish people for maintaining their cultural identity for 1800 years. Which basically represent the timing of the second Jewish diaspora after the Romam Empire told them leave Israel or else. Is there any other world religion in world history that maintained its identity for 1800 years without a continued presence in the same homeland? Yet without question, Jews scattered all over that world maintained that identity after that 2'nd diaspora.

Of course, therein lies the rub, the ancient Israelis did not just find an uninhabited land of milk and honey, they pushed the original inhabitants out. And in that larger history of Israel, the same land coveted by Jews as sacred has also become sacred to two other much larger religions, namely Christians and Muslims. And that is what makes Israel somewhat poisonous to everyone, as the holy land has changed hands
countless times in recent world history. And as soon as one religion takes over the holy land, they get this bright idea to pig it all and deny access to the other two great religions. And as the losing religion finally gets inspired to assemble great armies and kick the occupying religion out, they then decide pig it all. Mid-east history 101, rinse and repeat.

How come why fort has no one gotten the bright idea that maybe its time to share the holy land with all three religions?

As for me, I am not the religious type but I love nature Parks. Maybe I can say, yippee, I am an American and we own the Grand Canyon. But gasp, America only owns part of Niagara falls. Should I don my soapbox and demand that the USA invades Canada so we can kick out Canada and thus own all all of Niagara falls. Or maybe I should advocate the Grand Canyon should be viewed by only Americans, and we should not permit any foreign visitors any where near? Or my ownership of the grand canyon will be profaned and diminished by infidels!

I hope you liked my lesson in mid-east logic 101. Because I too stand foursquare for life, liberty and the pursuit of my own happiness, but I will be damned if I will permit anyone else to be happy.

 

[BoomerD]

Here's another question on the same lines...

Why should the Jews have been given ANY land that had to be taken from someone else to begin with? What makes the Jews so deserving of a "homeland" in which many/most had never seen?

Hell, if we're gonna dole out other people's lands, let's take everything west of the Mississippi and give it to the "American Indians." At least they have a valid claim to the lands.

 

[Desireisis]

http://www.kinghussein.gov.jo/kabd_eng.html?

good read

 

[piasabird]

Germans had a lot of coal and they had a metod to convert coal to fuel. This method was developed by a Jew. Can you see the irony? It is more expensive than digging for oil, but it did work.

You might try reading the book titled "The Alchemy of the Air".

This same Jew also developed an economical method to make fertilizer from the Air.

 

[Zebo]

They were given Palestine well before Nazis started exterminating them. Mandate for Palestine which called for "Jewish national home" is in 1920's. WWII was late 1930's and final solution was in the 1940's.

Why is they lived there and British and LON cut up the former Ottoman Empires lands which were gained by Ottoman conquest to tribes and they were one tribe.

 

[k3n]

I didn't think that oil became a hugely important issue in the Middle East until like the 1950's... during the WW2 era, ME oil accounted for 5% of the global supply.

The German Empire prior to WWI had plans to build a railroad system to through the ottoman empire to Baghdad. Also in the late 1800s, oil proved to be a superior fuel source for battleships over coal.

Source: A century of War by F. William Engdahl

And no, i don't think oil played a big part in the UN selecting palestine/israel post WWII.

 

[Zebo]

Here's another question on the same lines...

Why should the Jews have been given ANY land that had to be taken from someone else to begin with? What makes the Jews so deserving of a "homeland" in which many/most had never seen?

Hell, if we're gonna dole out other people's lands, let's take everything west of the Mississippi and give it to the "American Indians." At least they have a valid claim to the lands.

Take? They bought the lands from Ottoman empire starting in 1800's.

 

[JohnOfSheffield]

Allies took Germany and bitch slapped them and there would have been nothing they could have done if a part of their country was given only to the Jewish people

Why pick that shithole they have now.. do we really support religious extremism ...

The land was at the time ... a shithole, made to prosper and is now a well being neation except for retarded morons shooting rockets at civilians to "elimi... haha... elimi... lol... well eradicate the jews"

This area was given by the British Empire because no one fucking inhabited it at the time and the Jews wanted to go there...

There were a couple of farmers, they boght them out of the areas, Israel was built, everything that happened before or after is the consequences of fucking with a superior power and trying to take over land that legally (under international law) belongs to Israel.

Ever since the inception of Israel, there has been a will to destroy it, Hamas has expressed a will to do so and still wants to do so.

Tell me, if Mexico had wanted to do so and sent rockets towards the US, naturally you'd be all for letting them do that without trying to stop them through bombing the sights while sparing as many civilians as humanly possible?

No, in reality if such a grenade, a military grenade had landed close to you you would have asked for your nation to protect you while you would have found shelter elsewhere.

Don't fucking claim to know anything about this unless you hve actual knowledge of what it's like when you have to run down into safe bunkers every other night when you hear the alarms.

 

[Lemon law]

Germans had a lot of coal and they had a metod to convert coal to fuel. This method was developed by a Jew. Can you see the irony? It is more expensive than digging for oil, but it did work.

You might try reading the book titled "The Alchemy of the Air".

This same Jew also developed an economical method to make fertilizer from the Air.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Maybe exactly the point piasabird, its was a German Jew who figured out an inefficient method to convert coal into oil, but it took the genius of Adolph Hitler and the German people to devise a more efficient means converting Jews into fertilizer. Now some 67 years later the Israelis do everything to Palestinians that Hitler did to Jews, but stop slightly short of getting any fertilizer out of the deal.

Sadly piasabird, at best, I can say there is a nickels worth of difference between Netanyuhu and Hitler, but there is not that dimes worth of difference between Nazi's and present Israeli government policy.

Because both believe that guilt is conveyed by heredity birth and not the content of character.

 

[JohnOfSheffield]

Take? They bought the lands from Ottoman empire starting in 1800's.

That accounts for less than 2% of current Israeli land.

I'm Jewish by heritage so yeah, i think Jews have the right to the land they have today, i don't think that rewriting history to fit your agenda will do much good though Zebo, one lie exposed will lead to the automatic thought that everything you say is a lie.

 

[JohnOfSheffield]

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Maybe exactly the point piasabird, its was a German Jew who figured out an inefficient method to convert coal into oil, but it took the genius of Adolph Hitler and the German people to devise a more efficient means converting Jews into fertilizer. Now some 67 years later the Israelis do everything to Palestinians that Hitler did to Jews, but stop slightly short of getting any fertilizer out of the deal.

Sadly piasabird, at best, I can say there is a nickels worth of difference between Netanyuhu and Hitler, but there is not that dimes worth of difference between Nazi's and present Israeli government policy.

Because both believe that guilt is conveyed by heredity birth and not the content of character.

You really don't have a clue about the indoctrination and policy of the German National Socialist Party, do you?

If you did you'd be up in arms about what is going on in your nation now.

It's always the same, in the last governmetn the people saw a common enemy in the Arabs, now it's the Mexicans, who's up next?

Perhaps you?

 

[Zebo]

That accounts for less than 2% of current Israeli land.

I'm Jewish by heritage so yeah, i think Jews have the right to the land they have today, i don't think that rewriting history to fit your agenda will do much good though Zebo, one lie exposed will lead to the automatic thought that everything you say is a lie.

I didnt rewrite anything.. They bought some land and were given the rest from a non-state after fall of Ottoman empire. Just like Iraq was given it's borders or Jordan theirs the Jewish state was given theirs called Palestine in Mandate and eventually Israel after UN carved up Mandate.

Right? meh. no such thing.

 

[JohnOfSheffield]

I didnt rewrite anything.. They bought some land and were given the rest from a non-state after fall of Ottoman empire. Just like Iraq was given it's borders or Jordan theirs the Jewish state was given theirs called Palestine in Mandate and eventually Israel after UN carved up Mandate.

Right? meh. no such thing.

In a word... no.

I don't feel like sitting in a tent half way across the world educating you on something you'll most surely deem as false either sincy you are obviously of the belief that anything you can make up is absolute truth.

There IS right and wrong when it comes to history, other than that, morals... i really don't give a shit, perhaps you are like Bin Laden and everything to serve the purpose or you are like me and only deal with the truth.

I don't really know, all i know is that you are either knowingly portraying falsehoods or unknowingly portraying falsehoods, either way, what you are saying is pure bullsheit.

I find that every one of your posts suffer from this, so i'm going to go ahead and assume that you are stupid or just too high to think.

 

[Infohawk]

Europe didn't make sense for a Jewish homeland. I think somewhere in the new world would have made more sense.

 

[Lemon law]

Europe didn't make sense for a Jewish homeland. I think somewhere in the new world would have made more sense.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Why should a nationally diverse peoples as Jews need or deserve a homeland?

But genetically, is a German Jew any different than a German Christian?

Is a African Jew genetically similar to a Polish Jew?

And when the current Palestinian people are perhaps the the most pure genetic example of what a Biblical era Jew was at the time of Christ, its gotta lead to much head scratching and no answers.

Yippee, us human being are so inventive in finding new artificial ways to hate ourselves.

 

[IronWing]

Maybe we should have given them Texas instead. We still could. At least they'd have oil.

 

[JD50]

The land was at the time ... a shithole, made to prosper and is now a well being neation except for retarded morons shooting rockets at civilians to "elimi... haha... elimi... lol... well eradicate the jews"

This area was given by the British Empire because no one fucking inhabited it at the time and the Jews wanted to go there...

There were a couple of farmers, they boght them out of the areas, Israel was built, everything that happened before or after is the consequences of fucking with a superior power and trying to take over land that legally (under international law) belongs to Israel.

Ever since the inception of Israel, there has been a will to destroy it, Hamas has expressed a will to do so and still wants to do so.

Tell me, if Mexico had wanted to do so and sent rockets towards the US, naturally you'd be all for letting them do that without trying to stop them through bombing the sights while sparing as many civilians as humanly possible?

No, in reality if such a grenade, a military grenade had landed close to you you would have asked for your nation to protect you while you would have found shelter elsewhere.

Don't fucking claim to know anything about this unless you hve actual knowledge of what it's like when you have to run down into safe bunkers every other night when you hear the alarms.

JoS brings the win again.
:thumbsup:

 

[Freshgeardude]

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Why should a nationally diverse peoples as Jews need or deserve a homeland?

But genetically, is a German Jew any different than a German Christian?

Is a African Jew genetically similar to a Polish Jew?

And when the current Palestinian people are perhaps the the most pure genetic example of what a Biblical era Jew was at the time of Christ, its gotta lead to much head scratching and no answers.

Yippee, us human being are so inventive in finding new artificial ways to hate ourselves.

Hello diversity?

what is the problem with that.


Secondly, it made sense to have Israel where it was today because thousands of jews had already moved there in the Aliyot (aliyah in plural), and the world knew they needed a place to keep jewish people safe after thousands of years of hell we have been getting, especially after the holocaust

 

[JEDIYoda]

Speaking of discrimination: http://www.theage.com.au/world/israe...802-1139p.html

''On the one hand, this problem is a humanitarian problem, we all feel and understand the hearts of children,'' Mr Netanyahu said. ''But on the other hand, there are Zionist considerations and ensuring the Jewish character of the state of Israel.''

Good old Jews!

As usual there is always one idiot who trys to derail a thread.......
Then the fool posts a link without telling the whole story....

Under the new rules, children born to foreign workers who entered Israel legally, and who have lived in Israel for five years or more, speak Hebrew and are enrolled in an Israeli school, will be eligible for permanent residency.

After considering the issue for more than a year, the Israeli cabinet voted 13 to 10 in favour of the decision.

Some ministers voted against the move because not enough children were being expelled. Other ministers were opposed to expelling any children.

About 400 children of foreign workers will have to leave Israel by the end of the month, while another 800 children will be eligible to stay.

5150Joker - it is stoopid and moronic as well as just plain foolish and idiotic and to take a segment of a story without telling the truth.....in other words if you read the article and take it at face value you can see that there was great debate and soul searching before anything was agreed on.....but you would have us to believe that the israeli government is heartless and does not carer about the children.

 

[woolfe9999]

I agree that Jews were not received kindly in eastern Europe post WWII. But to state that Poland is more anti-semitic than other countries is quite outlandish. Have you ever lived in Poland? Or been there?

One fact that cannot be disputed is that in terms of occupied nations, Poland had it worse than most and maybe even the worst out of all the countries involved in WWII. Almost 6 years of occupation, invasion by 2 countries (USSR and Germany) probably influenced attitudes a great deal. Not to mention the fact that the punishment for assisting a Jew was death not only to yourself but your entire family as well.

With that being said, Poland had one of the largest Jewish communities before WWII especially around Krakow. I don't think that would have been the case if Poland was inherently the most anti-semitic nation.

Yeah, the Poles had it bad during the war, worse than anywhere else, except perhaps parts of Russia and the Ukraine. The penalty for helping Jews was generally death elsewhere as well. In general, the Poles helped Jews very little compared with northern and western European peoples, especially the Dutch, Danes, Norwegians and Italians. However, the Poles were no worse, and perhaps better, than the Ukrainians and the peoples of the Baltic states in that regard. Still, Polish anti-semitism, which was more based on traditional religious bigotry than the Nazis racialist theories, long predated the war. The idea of exiling all Jews to Madagascar, for example, was not originally a Nazi idea. It originated with the Poles in the mid 1930's, who actually sent a commission to the island to explore the possibility.

It isn't clear that the large Jewish population in Poland meant that the Poles were not particularly anti-semitic. In general, countries with low Jewish populations (i.e. Denmark and Norway) tended to be the least anti-semitic, and vice versa. Likely this had something to do with the fact that eastern European Jews tended to be less well culturally assimilated than western European Jews. It also had to do with the eastern European cultures as well.

It's incorrect, of course, to generalize that all Poles were raging anti-semites, so if you happen to be Polish, you shouldn't take offense.

- wolf

 

[Lemon law]

Hello diversity?

what is the problem with that.


Secondly, it made sense to have Israel where it was today because thousands of jews had already moved there in the Aliyot (aliyah in plural), and the world knew they needed a place to keep jewish people safe after thousands of years of hell we have been getting, especially after the holocaust

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Oddly enough, FGD, I totally agree with your statements.

But to understand where we differ, we have to go back to the former British Mandate even before 1948, where there was an eclectic and diverse mix of Jews, Palestinians, and Arab nationals living within the borders of the British Mandate. While it is true that many Jews, especially Russian Jews had been filtering back to the region and buying land as part of a somewhat 75-100 year trend. What JOS implies is absolutely untrue, because most of the land was still owned by Arab Nationals and Palestinians when the State of Israel was ratified by the UN in 1948.

But Israel was at that decision point crossroad in 1948, and could choose to be a government that granted equal rights to all living within the former British Mandate, or it could choose to be a nation that granted rights to only Jews and some Arabs. And sadly, IMHO, Israel not only choose to be a less diverse nation, they also stole the land
that belonged to its Palestinians inhabitants.

Granted, the surrounding Arab States totally unfairly attacked Israel, but not only did Israel prevail, the decision to dispossess the land of Palestinians occurred after Israel won that war.

Now here we are, 62 years later, and the world struggles with the question of how to make the Palestinians whole. Almost the same question the world had post WW2 with Jewish refugees previously treated equally shamefully.

But the point being, giving the Jews their own State only created another equally big Palestinian refugee problem when Israel could have decided to grant equal rights to Jews, Palestinian, and Arab nationals and today, the world would not have a refugees and mid-east tensions.