Why the US is on a Collision Course with Total Collapse

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destrekor

Lifer
Nov 18, 2005
28,799
359
126
I don't see anything in the Constitution or past case law preventing a single payer insurance model.

There is that nasty little Citizens United case, for which the Supreme Court ought to feel some wrath for, but I don't see that being used successfully as case law against any future single payer insurance system. Hell, that could be the best chance at overturning Citizens United. That case law is still really weird though, they aren't people because they aren't citizens, but they are people in certain situations. I think a distinction would be in that corporations can't be -- at least not yet -- given status as a protected class of people, among many other potential distinctions.

Frankly, I think the government could easily defend a well-designed national healthcare system. While there are many things not specifically mentioned as being reserved for the Federal government to implement as law, myriad laws and codes find themselves falling under certain broad sections of text; an example is the national economy and ensuring its stability and prosperity, where the Federal government has the right to shape that as it sees fit, and whatever ways the Federal government hasn't regulated can be added to by the States.

There are many, many more regulations that the Federal government could implement, if done so smartly and they can properly defend the use of whatever clause in the Constitution they want to cite as source of that power.
 

Skunk-Works

Senior member
Jun 29, 2016
983
328
91
All Congress needs to do is allow the purchasing of health care across state lines and add some regulations on things like preconditions. Competition is the hallmark of how this country has succeeded. But the way Congress is now, all it takes is a few shit heads to strike down a good thing.
 

destrekor

Lifer
Nov 18, 2005
28,799
359
126
All Congress needs to do is allow the purchasing of health care across state lines and add some regulations on things like preconditions. Competition is the hallmark of how this country has succeeded. But the way Congress is now, all it takes is a few shit heads to strike down a good thing.

Competition that creates excesses and abuses and then needs to be reigned in via regulations. Time and time again.
 

MrSquished

Lifer
Jan 14, 2013
21,004
19,442
136
2 things that will never be solved in USA: healthcare and school shootings. apparently school shooting drills are normal.
accept the new reality or get out.

It's totally fucked right? I see posts all over the place from folks who suggest that guarding our schools like prisons should be the new normal. WTF? Is THAT the society you are striving to live in?
 

Skunk-Works

Senior member
Jun 29, 2016
983
328
91
Competition that creates excesses and abuses and then needs to be reigned in via regulations. Time and time again.


So don't buy anything on Amazon, a new car, computer crap and everything else in between. Move to Cuba. I hear they have an excellent health care system.
 

quikah

Diamond Member
Apr 7, 2003
4,068
649
126
All Congress needs to do is allow the purchasing of health care across state lines and add some regulations on things like preconditions. Competition is the hallmark of how this country has succeeded. But the way Congress is now, all it takes is a few shit heads to strike down a good thing.

buying across state lines is already a part of the ACA. it doesn't do anything because you can't just magically make insurance cost less without addressing the actual cost of healthcare.
 

Skunk-Works

Senior member
Jun 29, 2016
983
328
91
without addressing the actual cost of healthcare.


So the ACA to you is a contemporary example of single payer and how it's flawless? Putting the burden on 320 million + of a tax expense in this country will never work. It may in little Sweden, but never here.

The actual cost of health care will be a moot point with competition. Imagine if there was only one ISP.
 

local

Golden Member
Jun 28, 2011
1,850
511
136
You don't seem to understand how much the .gov currently spends on healthcare and that cost is rising just as fast. By the time it hits said tipping point what makes you think they will be in the position to step in and do anything about it?

But if it all goes the way you say, I highly doubt people would revolt. They'd go from a system in which they had zero access because they couldn't afford it to one that they had a major increase in access, not a decrease. It might be a decrease from when they could afford it but a huge increase over when they couldn't afford it.

No I don't think they will be able to save it, not looking like anything we have today anyway. Barring some major cost saving advancements in medicine our expectations are unrealistic. All countries are experiencing rapid growth in costs or suffering limitations due to cost cutting. There is no way back that doesn't involve a collapse and rebuild, that is the point it will go single payer with maybe half the availability surviving. And then you get extremely long wait times by necessity just like Canada or the UK. You cannot have the same availability as we do in the US for similar costs to existing single payer systems.

Canada - 20 week wait times, wow! I decided to get my gall bladder removed last year and it was a 3 day wait for elective surgery.

And another thing driving up cost, luxury. I knew we were in trouble when I started seeing commercials for the various hospitals in our area talking about their new larger rooms with wood floors and such. It was then that the big push over the last 20 years or so to have bigger better amenities to attract the patients started. And now I see people picking what hospital they will go to based on crap like their food menu. I don't think I have seen a hospital built since 2000 that was setup to have more than one patient per room. All these things add up to higher bills, more expensive insurance and greater expectations from the people that use them for no difference in medical care. New facilities get built for profit not to care for the needs of the community.
 
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IEC

Elite Member
Super Moderator
Jun 10, 2004
14,323
4,904
136
You don't seem to understand how much the .gov currently spends on healthcare and that cost is rising just as fast. By the time it hits said tipping point what makes you think they will be in the position to step in and do anything about it?

But if it all goes the way you say, I highly doubt people would revolt. They'd go from a system in which they had zero access because they couldn't afford it to one that they had a major increase in access, not a decrease. It might be a decrease from when they could afford it but a huge increase over when they couldn't afford it.

Some of my colleagues already do not accept new Medicare/Medicaid patients. Full stop.

Medicine is a second career for me, so I don't care about money as long as I'm not broke, but suddenly increasing the patient to provider ratio is likely going to cause a revolt amongst providers. We have a limited number of providers, many of whom are already burning out (not to mention the epidemic of suicides in my profession) so a sudden increase in demand on a scarce resource (provider time) is going to exacerbate the currently overstretched situation.

Realistically, any attempt at single payer or government-mandated healthcare is going to force rationing of care. And quite possibly require the implementation of what alarmists call "death panels" to reduce futile medical treatments.
 

ElFenix

Elite Member
Super Moderator
Mar 20, 2000
102,414
8,356
126
All Congress needs to do is allow the purchasing of health care across state lines and add some regulations on things like preconditions. Competition is the hallmark of how this country has succeeded. But the way Congress is now, all it takes is a few shit heads to strike down a good thing.
it's already allowed.

edit: i see this was covered
 

paperfist

Diamond Member
Nov 30, 2000
6,517
280
126
www.the-teh.com
OP
They can't charge whatever they want to those without insurance. Self pay is cheaper for regular visits than it is if you have insurance. I can see a heart specialist for $80. If I had insurance it's $50 co-pay, $5000 deductible, $500 per month.

There's a few hospitals on the east coast that are self pay for major surgery and it's a fraction of the cost of what a normal hospital charge.

The problem with health care is its run worse than the government. More waste than those $95 FBI hammers.
 

brianmanahan

Lifer
Sep 2, 2006
24,202
5,608
136
Doctors are scams. Hospitals are scams. Surgery is a scam.



I will never go to a doctor or hospital or have surgery because I maintain my health to the utmost. If you need those things, you're basically already dying. Your life is merely maintained by 21th century medical technology like Darth Vader. If you lost your helmet you would die because you can't breath without it.

as someone who had brain surgery to eliminate seizures caused by a fever when i was an infant

this is probably the most idiotic thing i've ever read on ATOT

which is saying a lot
 

FIVR

Diamond Member
Jun 1, 2016
3,753
911
106
as someone who had brain surgery to eliminate seizures caused by a fever when i was an infant

this is probably the most idiotic thing i've ever read on ATOT

which is saying a lot

If you were born in any one of the millions of years that humans have inhabited the earth before 1900 you would be dead and thus, you are merely a dying body maintained by modern technology. You should be thankful that you had the amazing luck to be born in this minuscule time period before we are annihilated in nuclear conflict but after modern surgical medicine.


What is there to disagree about that?
 

IronWing

No Lifer
Jul 20, 2001
68,848
26,626
136
Then why do I here politicians talk about health insurance competition?
Because politicians will say anything to keep the private insurance scheme running and the bribes campaign contributions pouring in. Interstate competition is a red herring.
 
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Darwin333

Lifer
Dec 11, 2006
19,946
2,328
126
Some of my colleagues already do not accept new Medicare/Medicaid patients. Full stop.

Medicine is a second career for me, so I don't care about money as long as I'm not broke, but suddenly increasing the patient to provider ratio is likely going to cause a revolt amongst providers. We have a limited number of providers, many of whom are already burning out (not to mention the epidemic of suicides in my profession) so a sudden increase in demand on a scarce resource (provider time) is going to exacerbate the currently overstretched situation.

Realistically, any attempt at single payer or government-mandated healthcare is going to force rationing of care. And quite possibly require the implementation of what alarmists call "death panels" to reduce futile medical treatments.

Your colleagues also have a very large pool of customers that have private insurance too. If the ONLY insurer is the government and your customers can't afford to pay what you are charging in cash, you choices are either live with single payer or retire/change careers.

Ironically, there is already rationing along with so called "death panels". Frankly end of life care is something we need to have a very serious discussion about. We spend way too much money trying to extend Grampa's life for another year that and it will be shitty for him anyway.
 
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Darwin333

Lifer
Dec 11, 2006
19,946
2,328
126
I don't see anything in the Constitution or past case law preventing a single payer insurance model.

Of course there isn't, if there was then someone would have already challenged Medicare/Medicaid taxes. Well I guess in a sense they can't force you to use it but they damn sure can force you to pay for it in the form of a tax.
 

ElFenix

Elite Member
Super Moderator
Mar 20, 2000
102,414
8,356
126
Then why do I here politicians talk about health insurance competition?
because if you're explaining you're losing, and explaining why we don't have it when it is, in fact, authorized by congress, is a losing proposition.
 

BudAshes

Lifer
Jul 20, 2003
13,911
3,195
146
Doctors are scams. Hospitals are scams. Surgery is a scam.



I will never go to a doctor or hospital or have surgery because I maintain my health to the utmost. If you need those things, you're basically already dying. Your life is merely maintained by 21th century medical technology like Darth Vader. If you lost your helmet you would die because you can't breath without it.

Yeah I should have just had them take me out back and shoot me instead of having my wisdom teeth removed. What was I thinking? Now I'm doomed! DOOOMED!
 

Darwin333

Lifer
Dec 11, 2006
19,946
2,328
126
Damn hospitals. Always trying to make a buck with the Hippocratic oath and shit...

The way and amount they bill is seriously fucked though.

Hospitals will routinely charge $20,000 for a vile of antivenom, a very large portion of which is used in Arizona, but costs only $100 a vile a few hundred miles south in Mexico. Granted not all hospitals charge $20,000 a vial, the price can range from $750 on the very low end to $20,000 on the high end with most charging more than $10,000 a vial. Treatment almost always requires more than one vial and can require up to 70 vials or more.

Sovaldi, the cure for Hep C, costs $1,000 a pill here in the US and it requires a 12 week course which ends up costing about $90,000. In India it costs $4 a pill, less than $500 for a 12 week course of treatment.

These are just a very few examples of the insanity of our healthcare system.
 

brianmanahan

Lifer
Sep 2, 2006
24,202
5,608
136
If you were born in any one of the millions of years that humans have inhabited the earth before 1900 you would be dead and thus, you are merely a dying body maintained by modern technology. You should be thankful that you had the amazing luck to be born in this minuscule time period before we are annihilated in nuclear conflict but after modern surgical medicine.


What is there to disagree about that?

i disagree because i most likely wouldn't be dead, just have a lower quality of life.

doctors and surgery improve quality of life for many, many people. several of my older relatives had joints redone and maintained their mobility for 15-20 years longer than they would have without the surgery.

looking at it from a viewpoint of "millions of years" or "nuclear apocalypse" is beside the point. many surgeries have a high probability of improving life in the time that you do get, regardless of the past or future external world events, and as such are beneficial, not scams.

i wish you the best in your quest for perfect health. but i am willing to bet that if something terrible like cancer befalls you (yes i know this is impossible because you are the pinnacle of percent health), you would end up 1) going to the doctor and 2) having surgery performed if it has a good chance of saving your life.