Why the US is on a Collision Course with Total Collapse

eek2121

Platinum Member
Aug 2, 2005
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This isn't tinfoil hat stuff I'm about to write. In this post I'm going to attempt to point out why I think the US is on a collision course with a complete and total collapse of the economy, and it all boils down to one single issue: health care. Also, a quick note ahead of time: This isn't all about me. The part about me and my experience is just the setup.

Anyone that lives here in the US will realize why health care here is such a big issue. Every year premiums go up and up, coverages shrink, and out of pocket costs keep rising. As an example, a 20 minute CT scan of my abdomen the other day costed $1603....AFTER insurance discount.

First, an introduction to the way health insurance works for those not familiar. In the US we use private insurance companies for coverage to pay for health care. If you aren't insured, doctors can charge your whatever they want. Insurance plans help by stepping in to contract with various doctors, providers, etc. and those contracts set 'discounted rates', which determines how much a provider is allowed to charge. They are able to do this because they are a union of sorts. They represent large groups of people. If you don't accept plan XYZ, you probably won't get any business from someone in that group. As an example of this, if I weren't insured, that CT scan could have easily been $10,0000. Instead, the contracted rate was determined to be $1,603. The insurance company then determines how that payment will be structured. In a high deductible health plan, you have a fixed amount you must pay before any type of coverage kicks in. There are also other plans where you pay a fixed amount ('co-pay') or a percentage ('co-insurance') or maybe a structure that factors in all 3. After your amount is billed, the insurance companies pay the rest (notice I said 'billed' and not 'paid'...this will become important later). Note that there are some other factors at play as well related to your primary care provider, but we'll ignore those in this post.

For those of us that are employed, we typically can receive insurance at a discounted rate, and of that rate, the employer can opt to pay a percentage of that. These premiums are typically taken out of our paychecks on a pre-tax basis.

Now my employer happens to be transparent with how much all this costs. For good reason, an employee should know how much their total benefits package is worth. Your pay may be say, $50,000, but between health insurance, life insurance, 401k, etc. you could easily be worth $80,000/year to the employer. Now I'm fudging some numbers a bit here to remain anonymous, but let's just say I have a great job. I earn a 6 figure salary, yet I have a high deductible health plan. We use something called an HSA card at our company. HSA cards are credit cards that can only be used for medical expenses, and eventually, retirement. My employer contributes to that as well. In addition, my employer pays a generous 90% of all health care premiums for this high deductible plan (the average is 50%).

Going back to last year. I had a VERY bad year. I nearly died due to a surgical mistake and multiple corrections were required. The insurance company close to 1 million on my behalf. The issue is that our company is a startup, so we aren't that big of a company, and the insurance company paid out more money just in my case than they've taken in premiums from all the employees over the past 3 years COMBINED. This was just me. Two other people had similar medical problems last year. This means that they've effectively lost money from us since the day we signed up with them. Coming up on our open enrollment period (the only time you can switch insurers, this prevents you from hopping between providers from month to month or cancelling after a month of coverage) our provider elected to more than double our premiums. We had to find another carrier, and we did. The problem is, MY issues haven't been resolved. The new carrier is going to face an even worse situation. Their plans and premiums are the same as the old one. I've already hit my deductible and I'm very close to hitting my max out of pocket.

This isn't just about myself or the company I work for. This is happening everywhere, and it's coming to a head. Some people estimate that within 10-15 years, insurance premiums will exceed most peoples' paychecks. On top of that, hospitals/doctors have been pushing back, refusing such steep discounts. I was lucky enough to be an industry that tracks this data back in the day and we already saw this happening. Premiums were going up drastically on a yearly basis (and this was well before 'obamacare'). Doctors were beginning to push back more and more. The demand in healthcare is simply too high for supply to catch up, so this trend will continue.

As you can read from the lengthy post I've written so far, you'll instantly see the problem. Eventually healthcare will be completely un-affordable. Now people have made suggestions. A few of these are below, along with the drawbacks of each one.

My favorite suggestion (and the most popular one from democrats and independents) is the concept of going to single payer. A single insurance company that everyone enrolls in. The problem is, that, thanks to case law, you can't force a private practicing business entity to accept this single payer insurance. They have rights too, and one of those is a right to refuse service. This means single payer won't work. You can sign up for single payer, but good luck finding a doctor to treat you. In addition, hundreds of thousands or even millions of jobs will be lost. This could toss our economy into a recession or depression.

Another popular suggestion is to crack down on the pricing of hospitals, doctors, etc. This is actually VERY difficult to do and will likely get thrown out in court. Even if it doesn't, it will worsen the core issue: shortage of health care. Less people will choose to be doctors, and you'll have to wait months to get treatment. An example of this is a psychiatrist. All the psychiatrists in my network are not accepting new patients. You have to go out of network and pay hundreds of dollars to see one.

Another one that got brought up briefly is raising the HSA per year contribution limit. Right now you can contribute something like $6900 per year to your HSA. That's it. Some republicans want to triple that limit High Deductible Health Plans cost significantly less (half in my case) than traditional health plans, so the theory is the money goes into your HSA instead of the towards the insurance company and you use that to pay for your high deductible.. The issue? Deductibles are rising faster than HSA limits, and co-insurances are creeping up. A person making $24,000/year cannot contribute as much to their HSA as a person making $240,000/year.

So how does this bring us to collapse? Well, we can't solve health care. It's not possible. The constitution, along with interpreted case law forbids it. The government can't control the people, and a corporation is considered a person. This is backed by case law. Medical costs will keep rising (and with good reason, we have some very real and very hard problems to solve...like Cancer). It's a law of economics. There is no way to make it work. Eventually the poor, providing services to the middle class and the rich, will be unable to even get a broken bone fixed. (I came from a life of poverty, my family has been sued multiple times for being only able to pay $10/mo towards their medical bills...they won the $10/rate, but at that rate, they will never pay off their debt...they become entrapt. They could file bankruptcy, but they don't want to, and you can only do that every 10 years for chapter 7 anyway) Eventually middle and upper middle classes will be affected. They already are. I'm considered upper middle class and health care is an issue for me.

The only real solution I can think of is to kill off medicare AND social security completely along with part of federal taxes. Turn the entire deduction into a percentage of income system, and dump a fixed amount back into an HSA account that everyone would be mandated to have. Make the laws more strict on HSA so that it can ONLY be used for healthcare (prescription meds, doctors visits, etc.) until the age of 65 (technicalities exist that allow you to use it for anything, but at a 20% tax penalty). Keep the percentage adjusted with inflation of healthcare costs...and add a catchup bonus to anyone that falls critically ill. even that is only a bandaid.

Anyone have any thoughts? How do we fix this mess? I have to go for now, duty calls, but, thoughts?
 

KeithP

Diamond Member
Jun 15, 2000
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Why the US is on a Collision Course with Total Collapse
Because a large segment of the population is too stupid to understand simple concepts like putting posts in the appropriate forums?

-KeithP
 
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Darwin333

Lifer
Dec 11, 2006
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First of all I completely disagree with your premise about single payer and doctors/hospitals opting out of it. What are they going to do, find another field to work in because otherwise they will have very few, if any, cash paying clients?

Secondly, there are some very easy things we can do concerning pricing. Medical services should be required to give you pricing, or at least a good faith estimate, upfront just like it is legally mandated in every other industry. I understand that there are certain instances that won't work like if you just had a heart attack but there is no reason it can't be done for the vast majority of medical procedures. If your car is making a weird noise and you take it to a mechanic it is illegal for him to do $10,000 worth of repairs on it without discussing the cost with you first. Even for things that should be absurdly easy to get a price, like an MRI scan, it's like pulling teeth to get one from the providers. Other countries have figured this out. Here in the US it costs between $1K-$3K for an MRI regardless if you pay it or your insurance does, in Japan without insurance you can get one for $100-$200.

At least you are concentrating on the right issue, everyone loves to hate on the insurance companies but they aren't the ones that are driving the prices so high.
 

Darwin333

Lifer
Dec 11, 2006
19,946
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Because a large segment of the population is too stupid to understand simple concepts like putting posts in the appropriate forums?

-KeithP

Wow, I saw the post and thought I must have clicked over to P&N.
 

luv2liv

Diamond Member
Dec 27, 2001
3,488
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2 things that will never be solved in USA: healthcare and school shootings. apparently school shooting drills are normal.
accept the new reality or get out.
 

DaveSimmons

Elite Member
Aug 12, 2001
40,730
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If we're heading for Fallout times then we all just need to stock up on stimpacks and doctor's bags. Problem solved!

More seriously, the constitution does not forbid single-payer health care.
 
Nov 8, 2012
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To be fair, every generation said the most recent generation is the worst generation ever.

See? Each generation gets better and better at impressing the previous as to how low they can go.

I mean, you gotta admit... you can't get any lower than going to school racking up $50,000 in debt to get a piece of paper stating you have a degree in "Gender studies" or something like that, and then wondering why you're working as a Starbucks Barista for the rest of your life.
 
Last edited:

eek2121

Platinum Member
Aug 2, 2005
2,754
3,678
136
Your dismissal of single payer is flawed. Service providers will accept single payer or go out of business. Others will step in to take that business.
That hasn't worked so far. Many psychiatrists don't take health insurance, and they are doing just fine. It comes down to a business decision and if you had a choice between waiting 6 weeks for the flu or paying $100 to get it diagnosed now, which would you choose? Doctors want more money, not less, and medicare/medicaid do NOT pay top dollar

Because a large segment of the population is too stupid to understand simple concepts like putting posts in the appropriate forums?

-KeithP

This was an offtopic post, it was not political in any way. If anyone's intelligence is being questioned, it's yours.

First of all I completely disagree with your premise about single payer and doctors/hospitals opting out of it. What are they going to do, find another field to work in because otherwise they will have very few, if any, cash paying clients?

Secondly, there are some very easy things we can do concerning pricing. Medical services should be required to give you pricing, or at least a good faith estimate, upfront just like it is legally mandated in every other industry. I understand that there are certain instances that won't work like if you just had a heart attack but there is no reason it can't be done for the vast majority of medical procedures. If your car is making a weird noise and you take it to a mechanic it is illegal for him to do $10,000 worth of repairs on it without discussing the cost with you first. Even for things that should be absurdly easy to get a price, like an MRI scan, it's like pulling teeth to get one from the providers. Other countries have figured this out. Here in the US it costs between $1K-$3K for an MRI regardless if you pay it or your insurance does, in Japan without insurance you can get one for $100-$200.

At least you are concentrating on the right issue, everyone loves to hate on the insurance companies but they aren't the ones that are driving the prices so high.

See, now you got me thinking. Maybe technology can solve this. I believe that not only should there be a price list, but a centralized price list that is maintained by the US government. You want to be licensed to perform CT scans? You need to post your cost online. Use something similar CMS Medicare Part C and Part D rating systems for determining the quality of the care. A 5 star rating system that shows how excellent the pre-care, care, and post-care was. Validated by peers and the government.

2 things that will never be solved in USA: healthcare and school shootings. apparently school shooting drills are normal.
accept the new reality or get out.

Indeed, not just school shootings, but shootings in general.

Isn't amazon going into the healthcare industry? They'll fix everything!

They still haven't gotten prime 2 day shipping right. ;)

If we're heading for Fallout times then we all just need to stock up on stimpacks and doctor's bags. Problem solved!

More seriously, the constitution does not forbid single-payer health care.

No, but it forbids the government from demanding people like me to perform a service for someone.

Millennials. The correct answer is Millennials.

Hah! Always the millennials, they'll figure it out!

See? Each generation gets better and better at impressing the previous as to how low they can go.

I mean, you gotta admit... you can't get any lower than going to school racking up $50,000 in debt to get a piece of paper stating you have a degree in "Gender studies" or something like that, and then wondering why you're working as a Starbucks Barista for the rest of your life.

My wife spent a fortune going to school for a certain subject matter. I didn't spend a dime. She's a stay at home mom after being laid off long ago. I make an excellent 6 figure salary. Go figure. Education system messed up as well, but I think I'll stick with doctors that go through med school. ;)

But it's probably only a pilot program in one small clinic on the west coast. :(

This. although, at one point, Prime Now was as well, and now it's widely available.

Soon a gig worker will be arriving to fix my broken bones or severed artery in 2 hours or less! Hopefully they'll earn that suggested $5 tip.

Best quote of the day. Hopefully we didn't just give Uber an idea. Uber Health Care is something I'd like to avoid.
 

IronWing

No Lifer
Jul 20, 2001
67,983
25,025
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That hasn't worked so far. Many psychiatrists don't take health insurance, and they are doing just fine. It comes down to a business decision and if you had a choice between waiting 6 weeks for the flu or paying $100 to get it diagnosed now, which would you choose? Doctors want more money, not less, and medicare/medicaid do NOT pay top dollar
Single payer has worked everywhere it's been tried. Medicare and Medicaid not paying top dollar is a good thing. Insurance companies also don't pay top dollar.
 
Nov 8, 2012
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Single payer has worked everywhere it's been tried. Medicare and Medicaid not paying top dollar is a good thing. Insurance companies also don't pay top dollar.

Single payer has its criticism for things such as long waiting lists for surgery that you could effectively get done immediately here in the states. Not saying it's a horrible idea, just don't make it out to be something that has no flaws.
 

Mai72

Lifer
Sep 12, 2012
11,578
1,740
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What about self inflicted health issues.

Let's look at diabities. Currently over 30 million have both type 1 and 2 diabities. 80 million Americans have prediabities and many don't know that they even have it. It's also the 7th leading cause of death. That's today. Within a ten to twenty year span, diabites is going to be the number 2 cause of death. Heart disease will be number 1. Here's the scary part: 1/3 Americans will have some form of type 2 diabities. That's a lot of people who are going to need treatment for life. Sure, they could exercise and eat healthy. But, how many are going to actually follow that advice? Answer: FEW.

https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/318472.php

Check out this Ted Talk speech given on obesity in 2012. Go to the 12:45 mark and be amazed at how much we are eating ourselves to death.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sWN13pKVp9s

I've lived in South Korea and Thailand. It always amazed me that I could get basic treatment in Asia for a fraction of the cost back home in NJ. For instance, when I landed in Bangkok my tooth started acting up. I was in some serious pain. I needed root canal and a new crown. I had both plus a cleaning. The cleaning cost $20. The crown and root canal cost $450. In NJ, I would had been looking at $1,500 easily.
 

local

Golden Member
Jun 28, 2011
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We recently imported a new Canadian to head up a department. He is absolutely stunned at the availability of healthcare here. We have more MRI machines in a 5 mile radius from our office than the entire province he came from, I wan't to say it's Alberta, and something like 20 times the number of hospitals per person. He did however lose his shit over the cost of health insurance but that quickly went away when he saw that almost everything else here is stupid cheap compared to Canada such as food and electronics.

So the moral of my story is that while our healthcare is much more expensive but it is also almost immediately available and we all pay for that convenience.
 
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Darwin333

Lifer
Dec 11, 2006
19,946
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That hasn't worked so far. Many psychiatrists don't take health insurance, and they are doing just fine. It comes down to a business decision and if you had a choice between waiting 6 weeks for the flu or paying $100 to get it diagnosed now, which would you choose? Doctors want more money, not less, and medicare/medicaid do NOT pay top dollar

Well it works everywhere else and if it only cost $100 cash, payable at the time of my visit, to go to the doctor I wouldn't mind paying cash one bit. They are billing insurance companies and the government and getting far more than that.

Hell I've known people that couldn't even get an upfront cash price from their doctors office for a simple visit. They told him to just come in and they would bill him for something that should be one of the most known cost things in the medical industry. If I tried to pull, just once, what the medical industry does as a standard practice they would put me in federal prison. They are in gross violation of antitrust laws and while I have never seen a law that exempts them from them (and I've looked) none of our "tough on crime" politicians seem to give a shit.
 

Darwin333

Lifer
Dec 11, 2006
19,946
2,326
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What about self inflicted health issues.

Check out this Ted Talk speech given on obesity in 2012. Go to the 12:45 mark and be amazed at how much we are eating ourselves to death.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sWN13pKVp9s

I've lived in South Korea and Thailand. It always amazed me that I could get basic treatment in Asia for a fraction of the cost back home in NJ. For instance, when I landed in Bangkok my tooth started acting up. I was in some serious pain. I needed root canal and a new crown. I had both plus a cleaning. The cleaning cost $20. The crown and root canal cost $450. In NJ, I would had been looking at $1,500 easily.

404 on the Ted Talk.
 

Darwin333

Lifer
Dec 11, 2006
19,946
2,326
126
We recently imported a new Canadian to head up a department. He is absolutely stunned at the availability of healthcare here. We have more MRI machines in a 5 mile radius from our office than the entire province he came from, I wan't to say it's Alberta, and something like 20 times the number of hospitals per person. He did however lose his shit over the cost of health insurance but that quickly went away when he saw that almost everything else here is stupid cheap compared to Canada such as food and electronics.

So the moral of my story is that while our healthcare is much more expensive but it is also almost immediately available and we all pay for that convenience.

It is also unsustainable. It is, and has been for decades, increasing in cost far greater than inflation. I know most people these days aren't that good with exponential math but eventually curves so here it is one for everyone:

screen-shot-2015-05-12-at-5-46-11-pm1.png



For a while it's fine, then you start noticing the increase but still all good, then the increase starts getting bigger and you are like "fuck this is getting expensive" (us right now) and not long after that it's "holy motherfucking shit" pitchforks and torches time.
 

FIVR

Diamond Member
Jun 1, 2016
3,753
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Doctors are scams. Hospitals are scams. Surgery is a scam.



I will never go to a doctor or hospital or have surgery because I maintain my health to the utmost. If you need those things, you're basically already dying. Your life is merely maintained by 21th century medical technology like Darth Vader. If you lost your helmet you would die because you can't breath without it.
 
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local

Golden Member
Jun 28, 2011
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It is also unsustainable. It is, and has been for decades, increasing in cost far greater than inflation. I know most people these days aren't that good with exponential math but eventually curves so here it is one for everyone:

screen-shot-2015-05-12-at-5-46-11-pm1.png



For a while it's fine, then you start noticing the increase but still all good, then the increase starts getting bigger and you are like "fuck this is getting expensive" (us right now) and not long after that it's "holy motherfucking shit" pitchforks and torches time.
Oh I've been saying that for a few years now. Insurance for my family already costs more than my entire take home was just 10 years ago.

It will hit a tipping point some time in the not too distant future and the entire system will fail. Then we get single payer and the public will revolt at the drastic reduction in availability like it is in Canada.
 

Darwin333

Lifer
Dec 11, 2006
19,946
2,326
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Oh I've been saying that for a few years now. Insurance for my family already costs more than my entire take home was just 10 years ago.

It will hit a tipping point some time in the not too distant future and the entire system will fail. Then we get single payer and the public will revolt at the drastic reduction in availability like it is in Canada.

You don't seem to understand how much the .gov currently spends on healthcare and that cost is rising just as fast. By the time it hits said tipping point what makes you think they will be in the position to step in and do anything about it?

But if it all goes the way you say, I highly doubt people would revolt. They'd go from a system in which they had zero access because they couldn't afford it to one that they had a major increase in access, not a decrease. It might be a decrease from when they could afford it but a huge increase over when they couldn't afford it.