Why Oh Why Have Good MMORPGs Died?

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taq8ojh

Golden Member
Mar 2, 2013
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In a nutshell, World of Warcraft happened. All original MMOs were stymied or tried to emulate WoW.
Bullshit.
Ultima Online
Anarchy Online

Just a tiny little example of awesome/original/innovative/whatever games that even came before any dumb cartoon stuff.

Warcraft came big back then, and is probably still played by tons of people, but that doesn't mean the universe is turning around it.
I hate it for one reason (but other than that I don't give a damn, people can play whatever they find fun): other companies thought it was great idea to add Warcraft ripoff features to their games, thinking it would generate more profit since Warcraft is so popular, but in reality fucking their otherwise good (or even great) games up. I used to play LOTRO a lot, and over just a few years they "wowified" the game up in a really disgusting way. I like to play games where stuff isn't server on silver platter and where I have to produce effort to get the goodies, and where you generally have to have some player skill.
 

diesbudt

Diamond Member
Jun 1, 2012
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WoW sucked a lot of life out of me (but most of it was work from home ;)) and was a blast for a long time. But, the game gets repetitive. You can't really blame them - if you find a successful formula you should stick to it. It's not their fault I played all my time in a short period of time - I bet plenty of players get the same game time in over many more months or even years than I did.

In all, WoW is an excellent game. It's just had its time in the sun and people move on.

Every game gets repetitive eventually. That cannot be helped. No matter what game.

WoW will do fine for minimum 2 more expansions. They may keep slightly dropping (with large increase at every expansion per usual). But by the time WoW is "done" Titan will be out. And since they full scrapped it and are beginning anew. I think they discovered some huge thing that MMOs need that required a complete redesign, that may bring in the next Gen.

Then again, it may tank hard. We won't know what the future games bring.
 

diesbudt

Diamond Member
Jun 1, 2012
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Seriously. People keep complaining there are no MMO's with all these hardcore aspects, and they never consider just playing Eve.

I don't "love" those 16 hour sessions where we are rage-roll wormholes looking for a target system where we siege.

I definitely don't "love" those week long sieges where we HAVE to get on at midnight and get off at 7am because we are trying to exploit time zone differences during these sieges.

I also hate the fact that I can lose 3 billion isk (about...120 dollars) in a single night by accidentally warping to an enemy POS when in a sleep deprived delirium.

I also "love" the massive lines of infrastructure and supply lines I have to upkeep somehow and spend an entire day or two every month keeping supplies ready for battle at tip top shape, and have to haul 500 million isk worth of supplies through enemy space where i can lose it all in a flash easily with no real way of fighting back.

I also love the political aspects where in one night, we lost half of our fighting strength (a couple of hundred players) including our military backbone and paved the way for other alliances to attempt to take our space in a moment of weakness.

Seriously, just Play Eve. It has all the "hardcore" aspects and much much more.
I don't think it is people that want a game like Eve. They want a game like Eve except as popular and "loved" as WoW. Nothing wrong with wanting that. However as I have previously said these games will never get the popularity like that. Actually I doubt any MMO will ever hit it massive again, as choices keep increasing.
 

Markbnj

Elite Member <br>Moderator Emeritus
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Sep 16, 2005
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www.markbetz.net
I don't think it is people that want a game like Eve. They want a game like Eve except as popular and "loved" as WoW. Nothing wrong with wanting that.
Eve is a very different game in a lot of ways. I don't think it, or anything like it, will ever have the mass appeal that WoW has had, but it didn't have to. It's an excellent example of how you can run a profitable game for a niche audience. From what I have read Darkfall (which I may try soon) is another.
 

Markbnj

Elite Member <br>Moderator Emeritus
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Sep 16, 2005
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darkfall looks interesting ... is there a game similar where you can build out your own play house? I always thought those were neat.
You can essentially do that to some extent in Rift with their "dimensions" mechanic. I've only checked out the small starter dimension that you get for free. Basically it's like their answer to player housing but you can kit the dimension out with all sorts of stuff, make it accessible to the guild, invite other players to it, etc.
 

tential

Diamond Member
May 13, 2008
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642
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Sounds like all your "likes" for a game are pretty childish, actually. I didn't care too much for instancing but now I really appreciate it.

I came from FFXI where certain mobs were harvested for their drops. Problem was you were in competition with gil sellers, not people just playing the game. Was a pain in the neck to fight with someone (you couldn't just PvP them) when they just wanted to make money and not progress. The best you could do was get them aggro'ed but then they fixed that too.
My "likes" are for politics, and actual in depth game play of a real world. Not sure how that is childish at all actually. What you're talking about "gil sellers" wasn't possible in servers I played but they did ruin a LOT of servers. That ruins the realism of the world when people simply where there to make money.

WoW ruined a lot of the interaction of players and focused it more on solo/small group interaction. I prefer MMOs that required you to interact on a larger scale, and team up to accomplish things. That was killed off with WoW as people didn't want to work in groups of 30-50+ to do anything other than "kill a big boss!"

Right, because anyone who doesn't want to put up with insecure teenagers "aren't good at MMOs".



EVE Online has all that in spades.
Who said you had to "put up with insecure teenagers" and I didn't make any comment about EVE Online. Dunno what your point is actually with this post.
 

Midwayman

Diamond Member
Jan 28, 2000
5,723
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Good... MMORPGs? Has there ever been one? I'm pretty sure the very things necessary to make an MMORPG also prevent it from being a good game. Grinding, too easy ramping up to artificial difficulty as you progress, fetch quests, catering to the lowest common denominator. The problem is that with single player and to some extent regular multiplayer games, you don't have to be all-inclusive. You can say, "only certain types of gamers can play this game." Offer multiple difficulty levels and game modes and so on. But in MMORPGs, everyone plays together so everyone has to be able to play.

Pretty much exactly this. Plus the whole bit that with a MMORPG you can't really be important in the world. Nothing you do really affects anything for more than a few seconds. I'm much rather play single player RPGs that allow online play with a friend or two.
 

diesbudt

Diamond Member
Jun 1, 2012
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Eve is a very different game in a lot of ways. I don't think it, or anything like it, will ever have the mass appeal that WoW has had, but it didn't have to. It's an excellent example of how you can run a profitable game for a niche audience. From what I have read Darkfall (which I may try soon) is another.
Yes, you only need so many people to make a profit, which is why so many MMOs are coming about and populations are starting to spread. However you still want to advertise and be liked by the masses, and eventually every game adds something that does this.

I did not say Eve had to have that appeal. What I ment was people who keep asking for such a game don't look around at ones such as EvE and etc. because what they actually want is a WoW populated/sized MMO of that style, which as you said, is a niche audience and will never be at the popularity level WoW was at its prime.
 

Markbnj

Elite Member <br>Moderator Emeritus
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Sep 16, 2005
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I did not say Eve had to have that appeal. What I ment was people who keep asking for such a game don't look around at ones such as EvE and etc. because what they actually want is a WoW populated/sized MMO of that style, which as you said, is a niche audience and will never be at the popularity level WoW was at its prime.
I understood, but I guess what I was saying is that Eve is probably not really the model for what they want.

To compare Eve to Wow, imagine taking all the cities and making them just a screen with icons for the vendors, and then make the player character a ship. Lastly, remove everything from the world except the cities, the players, the mob spawns, and the resources. Stick that all in a pretty skybox, and spend all the time you would have spent creating a believable 3D world and instead put it into the various kinds of relationships that players can have with each other and corps.

As someone has said previously, you could play Eve in a spreadsheet without any of the graphics and it wouldn't change much. Just very different from what most people expect. It's almost more like an old school MUD in some ways.

Darkfall actually sounds a lot closer to the old school MMORPG that many of us speak about so fondly, which is why I will likely give it a try.
 

JeffMD

Platinum Member
Feb 15, 2002
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Pretty much exactly this. Plus the whole bit that with a MMORPG you can't really be important in the world. Nothing you do really affects anything for more than a few seconds. I'm much rather play single player RPGs that allow online play with a friend or two.
Let me stop you right there, as you had good intentions but didn't realize one thing. Single player games and RPGs have some length, usually in the 20-30 hour range, 40 if you try and do everything and collect everything. There is usually very little replayability in single player rpg's aside from combat and seeing the story again.

Online RPGS on the other hand, want to, and do command 100s of hours.. I clocked over a year in everquest although I do admit im sure standing in stalls over night many times fluffs that up a bit. But I don't have any single player RPG games that have gotten as much play time from me as eq, guild wars, and WoW. Heck despite all of the better shooters out there, my most played shooter is most likely planetside 1. Although... tribes 2 and the original team fortress might have got it beat.

MMOs do contain artificial grinds, but as long as they are entertaining to do or the prize is made worth it for other parts of the game, and it is still optional content. All the good MMOs have generally had an entertaining leveling process (if it isn't fun to level, no ones going to play, period). After that, some have a gear grind and large raid battles which demand more coordination and time, others stick with pvp, achievement hunters, and rare drop grinds. Don't forget all of these successful MMOs add lots of new content, something you never really see in single player RPGs. (Skyrim was fairly successful in doing this, final fantasy 13-2 not so much).

As for story, it is tough to do in an mmo. WoW has great themes going through its whole world but really fails to make you think you made an impact much. Guild Wars 2 does this much better with instanced story missions but nothing is persistent in the open world. In both cases the best way to really make yourself known is PvE raid achievements or pvp leaderboard achievements. That said, there is way more skill in being number one on the leaderboards in an mmo then beating any single player rpg. :)
 
Oct 25, 2006
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I understood, but I guess what I was saying is that Eve is probably not really the model for what they want.

To compare Eve to Wow, imagine taking all the cities and making them just a screen with icons for the vendors, and then make the player character a ship. Lastly, remove everything from the world except the cities, the players, the mob spawns, and the resources. Stick that all in a pretty skybox, and spend all the time you would have spent creating a believable 3D world and instead put it into the various kinds of relationships that players can have with each other and corps.

As someone has said previously, you could play Eve in a spreadsheet without any of the graphics and it wouldn't change much. Just very different from what most people expect. It's almost more like an old school MUD in some ways.

Darkfall actually sounds a lot closer to the old school MMORPG that many of us speak about so fondly, which is why I will likely give it a try.
I don't "really" understand why people hate on Eve for being able to done in spreadsheets. Its more or less the most "hardcore " you can get. The point where graphics don't really matter except for prettiness or in rarer cases actual tactical information, and then only numbers matter is basically as hardcore as you can get.

I've made huge spreadsheets to deal with market stuff, as well as done tons of different entrepreneurial stuff, and investments into new opportunities.

It should be exactly what these hardcore people want. Unless they mean" I want my MMO's to be hardcore, but Eve is too hardcore"
 

Markbnj

Elite Member <br>Moderator Emeritus
Moderator
Sep 16, 2005
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I don't "really" understand why people hate on Eve for being able to done in spreadsheets. Its more or less the most "hardcore " you can get. The point where graphics don't really matter except for prettiness or in rarer cases actual tactical information, and then only numbers matter is basically as hardcore as you can get.

I've made huge spreadsheets to deal with market stuff, as well as done tons of different entrepreneurial stuff, and investments into new opportunities.

It should be exactly what these hardcore people want. Unless they mean" I want my MMO's to be hardcore, but Eve is too hardcore"
I'm not hating on it. I think it's pretty cool from an abstract point of view. I just didn't find it fun to play over the long term, and I think a lot of people try it and find that it isn't their cup of tea for some of the reasons I mentioned.
 

JeffMD

Platinum Member
Feb 15, 2002
2,026
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I don't "really" understand why people hate on Eve for being able to done in spreadsheets. Its more or less the most "hardcore " you can get.
Hehe..I think it comes down to relating how excel is more hardcore then word. No one outside of the business world cares and even in the business world, people that do use word look at excel users like "meh.. lots of work, they can have it, now where is my clip-art folder."
 

Veliko

Diamond Member
Feb 16, 2011
3,597
127
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Who said you had to "put up with insecure teenagers" and
Here is part of what you said is wrong with WoW:

Instances allowed people to farm without me being able to kill them. Different races means I can't walk up to you and just talk shiit.
Which is pretty much something that an insecure teenager would say.

Funnily enough, many people don't other players killing them whilst they farm and they don't want someone walking up to them and talking shit.


I didn't make any comment about EVE Online.
No, I know you didn't. I recommended it to you, which I wouldn't have done if you had mentioned it yourself.

It's chock full of the things that you seem to like in MMO.
 

gloom111

Member
Jul 17, 2013
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Why Oh Why Have Good MMORPGs Died?

They haven't, but don't expectto see anything new and great any time soon. I might be surpised, but I doubt it. The reason MMO's are being developed cautiously at the moment is because of the rise of free to play games. Once the market for free to play becomes stable and big developers are confident they know what niches free to play games will fill, they may sink time and money into MMORPG's again. Until then, free to play games pose a serious threat to developers who want to sell their product outright after investing large sums of money into them. I'm all in favor of free to play games, but it is to be expected that they will have a negative effect on development of new MMO's.
 

JeffMD

Platinum Member
Feb 15, 2002
2,026
19
81
Why Oh Why Have Good MMORPGs Died?

They haven't, but don't expectto see anything new and great any time soon. I might be surpised, but I doubt it. The reason MMO's are being developed cautiously at the moment is because of the rise of free to play games.
Tell that to elder scrolls, monster hunter online, game of thrones, PSO 2, Lineage III, and about 25 others slated for this year or next. Its still gonna be a mess, most will not beta properly and come out incomplete wrecks I'm sure.
 

BoberFett

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
37,563
9
81
I still say SWG could have been fantastic, except they fell under the WOW spell.

SWG had a very large, dedicated fan base at first. People were begging for the tools to create their own fun. But rather than improve what they already had, they saw WOWs subscriber numbers and changed the game entirely.

Hell, my main in SWG was a dedicated crafter, with only enough combat skill to defend myself while I was out checking my harvesters or a running to somebody's shop in the middle of nowhere. It was fun just role playing.

Then came the holocrons, and everything went downhill from there.
 

JDNIGHT

Junior Member
Feb 27, 2013
13
0
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Many people keep saying that if you want this or that type of experience, just play EVE. EVE has the hardcore mode and all of the sandbox features you would want.

This is true. However, I think what interferes in EVE's appeal is that you don't actually have a character that you move around. All you have is a ship, which is quite un-personal.

Also, many people are intrigued or excited by close, in your face combat.
 
Oct 25, 2006
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Many people keep saying that if you want this or that type of experience, just play EVE. EVE has the hardcore mode and all of the sandbox features you would want.

This is true. However, I think what interferes in EVE's appeal is that you don't actually have a character that you move around. All you have is a ship, which is quite un-personal.

Also, many people are intrigued or excited by close, in your face combat.
Eve has exciting in your face combat.

Mostly because you're risking extremely expensive gear by being in combat.
 

Tweak155

Lifer
Sep 23, 2003
11,442
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Here is part of what you said is wrong with WoW:

Instances allowed people to farm without me being able to kill them. Different races means I can't walk up to you and just talk shiit.
Which is pretty much something that an insecure teenager would say.


Funnily enough, many people don't other players killing them whilst they farm and they don't want someone walking up to them and talking shit.




No, I know you didn't. I recommended it to you, which I wouldn't have done if you had mentioned it yourself.

It's chock full of the things that you seem to like in MMO.
Yeah this is what I meant with my childish statement.
 
Feb 4, 2009
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I'm not hating on it. I think it's pretty cool from an abstract point of view. I just didn't find it fun to play over the long term, and I think a lot of people try it and find that it isn't their cup of tea for some of the reasons I mentioned.
I agree I'm all for Eve's intrigue and complexity. I just can't get myself to play it. Its kind of like Dwarf Fortress I really want to enjoy it but it's tough to look at and control.
My opinion may change if they allow you to leave your ship and adventure on a planet.
 

tential

Diamond Member
May 13, 2008
7,355
642
121
Here is part of what you said is wrong with WoW:



Which is pretty much something that an insecure teenager would say.

Funnily enough, many people don't other players killing them whilst they farm and they don't want someone walking up to them and talking shit.




No, I know you didn't. I recommended it to you, which I wouldn't have done if you had mentioned it yourself.

It's chock full of the things that you seem to like in MMO.
Because an MMO is a "massive world". An Instance, is the EXACT opposite of that. It's taking a "massive world" and eliminating it entirely. Someone walking up and killing you isn't "insecure" it's part of what can happen at any time out in a wild forest. When you remove that, you remove immersion from the game.

A world in which you're out there mingling with every person, then are "whisked away to a private dungeon" is utterly retarded. It has nothing to do with "insecurity" it has to deal with reality. In real life, there are a finite amount of places to do things. You don't get to be "whiskey away to your own private gold mine" when you want to gather resources. You have to compete in an open market.

Hardly insecure. It rather seems to me that you dislike competition and would rather farm without other people there. In such a case, don't sign online, and play single player, or co-op mode.

Yeah this is what I meant with my childish statement.
My point is that instances ruin immersion. If Location A is where you farm gold, and we can make a MILLION Location As then what is the point? Anyone can get there and do it. When Location A is the only place though, then it's not just the farming aspect. Now there is politics. What clan controls what locations, who fights for what, etc. I don't talk about "walking up and killing someone while they are farming" because of fun, but because that's MY location to farm at. If you want it, you had better be ready to fight me for it. My clan owns that, and you don't get to farm there until we are A) Done, or B) You kick us out.

It removes the "lets just farm in peace" aspect of the game, and creates war, territories, drama, and a real "world" aspect of a game. If you just enjoy farming in mini instances, you aren't even playing an MMO. You're playing a game in which you go into a lobby, chat with people, then find a group and head off into a small non MMO game.

Edit: I played a farmer class. Couldn't PVP well on that char. I didn't really enjoy PVP anyway, I played a healer as my main PVP when I played. My friends played PVP. When we farmed, I farmed, they patroled. People who came by were asked to A) Leave, or B) Die. Some times they left, sometimes we fought. Sometimes we won, sometimes we lost and left after trying to win and being incapable of doing so. Wars were declared on those clans, fights would ensue, and that brought the fun to the game.

Instances would literally have prevented all of that from happening. Instead, we would have killed everything in a dungeon, left, and been like "Look at this sweet dagger I got!".

As for the "insecure killing people while farming", that in almost ANY MMO, led to your gear being droppable. Yes you could troll people, but that's how you lost good gear for being a dick. I saw a lot of people lose a lot of good gear, and hell I got a lot of good gear off people who were douches like that. You're welcome to troll and be a dick, it's part of life, but there were consequences if you weren't good at it.
 
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