Why Oh Why Have Good MMORPGs Died?

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DigDog

Lifer
Jun 3, 2011
12,851
1,703
126
A lot of people did when WoW came out. DAoC was already getting long in the tooth, and many people were unhappy with the ToA expansion. So a lot of guilds, including mine, picked up and moved pretty much en masse. And for awhile right after launch it was a lot of fun.

Someone mentioned grouping. Grouping used to be one of the best and worst things about EQ and DAoC. I remember many, many times spending an hour or more in-game to get everyone to the same place, with the right stuff, so we could go after our objective.

As people got older time to play became harder to come by. Grouping became like organizing meetings at work, i.e. not much fun. So new games make it almost optional.

Btw, I am not one of those who feels that all the benefit of an mmorpg comes from grouping up with other players. The earth in real life is filled with billions of people and that no-doubt makes it a much more dynamic and interesting place than it would be if it weren't, but that doesn't mean I need to interact with many or any of them on a regular basis.
if you think ToA was bad, you should see the game now ... from 1 to 50 in 6 days, SOLO! (not joking; vamp on hibernia)

consider that the new gear that came out, like Dragon items, are so OP that the Epic armour is now completely obsolete.

but yes, i remember that period, yet we knew that WoW was going to be simplified compared to DAoC.

anyway ...


before you click the spoiler, make sure you are ok with not having a life anymore.
 

Markbnj

Elite Member <br>Moderator Emeritus
Moderator
Sep 16, 2005
15,682
13
81
www.markbetz.net
consider that the new gear that came out, like Dragon items, are so OP that the Epic armour is now completely obsolete.
My recollection was that crafted was always superior to the epic stuff. I don't think any of my characters ever actually wore the epic quest armor.

Oh man, I need to not pursue that any further :). Damn you, sir.
 

TechBoyJK

Lifer
Oct 17, 2002
16,701
60
91
For the record, Rift is a *horrible* example. It's the WoW clone of all WoW clones. The *official advertising* specifically focused on how exactly like WoW it is. The entire design is pretty much copy/pasted as blatantly as possible, just with different art and different lore. If you're looking for an example of an MMO thats moved on from the WoW casual candyland, Rift is like the absolute worst possible choice next to WoW itself :)
I like Rift. I like the way it plays.. I like the art, the story, etc. I think it's a gem. clone or not.
 

blackened23

Diamond Member
Jul 26, 2011
8,548
2
0
I am an old school player. Started out on MUDs and BBS games like Tele-Arena (if anyone remembers that). Transitioned to Ultima Online. Made the 3D jump in Everquest. UO and EQ1 are probably my favorite MMORPG's to date. At the very least they are the most memorable for me.

I was never a big WoW fan. Only played it sparingly. Tried EQ2. The changes to it just didn't interest me as much as EQ1. It wasn't a bad game, just seemed to be something missing. Played Anarchy Online, again, lost interest. Star Wars Galaxies. DC Universe Online.

Rift was probably the game that held my interest the longest after EQ1. It was very polished from day 1. If I had a major complaint about it, it's that things come too easy. Sure, some of the end content was difficult but from level 1-50, it was just way too easy. Like WoW, it was a rush to get to lvl 50 so you can raid or do higher difficulty dungeons. It's a shame that much of the lower level content is ignored because no one wants to do them? Why explore lower level content when you'll be 5-10 levels past that content in a week's time?

So let's jump back to UO. What made it great? I think it was the first Mass Multiplayer Online RPG that truly put the Mass in there. You had tons of people to interact with. You had a huge world to explore. You could be a good buy or a bad guy. You can be a crafter and not have to fight people. And it wasn't an easy game with the PvP'ing and traveling into the difficult dungeons to look for loot can get you killed quickly. I think what made it great was that you felt free to do whatever you wanted.

Jumping to Everquest. This was the first game that made the world feel truly three dimensional IMHO. You actually felt like you were running across the game world. In a way, this game is not as "free" as UO in what you can do, but it was way more immersive.

EQ1's difficulty was very high so you were forced to band together and interact with your fellow players. I think this fact made it one of the most memorable games ever for me. You actually had to interact and depend on your fellow players. This helped build a real community that IMHO is lacking in today's WoW clones.
Wow. This post is perfect, and describes just the way I feel about WoW these days - I played closed beta and played it from years upon release at Nov. 2004. The game isn't the same now. The exploration, banding together with friends, tightly knit server communities, and difficulty is just gone. While some heroic raids are difficult, overall the game is a complete joke - I remember doing UBRS with friends back at level 60 and it was genuinely memorable and tough as a freshly geared 60 in greens. We had to pay attention, but still had fun chatting on ventrilo - and the dungeons took a while but it was worth it because it was so memorable and fun. Now, aside from heroic raids nothing is difficult - it's just a mad rush to max level while barely paying attention - just a complete rush to max level, but they completely forgot what made MMOs so enjoyable in the first place - not max level, but the JOURNEY TO GET THERE. That is why I loved Vanilla/TBC so much. The journey was so memorable. You had to depend on friends that you were tightly knit with. It wasn't a mad rush to get all purples - everyone had fun because there was an outlet for every tier of player. Not just a mad rush to get max level and get purples in every slot.

Now the game is completely anonymous and unless you do heroic raids, you can just sit in orgrimmar and queue garbage nonstop. Dungeon? Que it up. 10 minute pump and dump forgettable instance. Yawn. Pvp? Que it up. No exploration. Minimal interaction except with anonymous scumbags who troll you. The game is so different now, and I hate it. You can play the entire game from your main city by queueing unless you do heroic raids. You don't even need a guild for normal raids because they're so easy.

Apparently, people don't want to take the time to find groups. Whatever. To me this was one of the most fun things about vanilla and TBC - you had to establish yourself as someone friendly and skilled, and you earned a reputation on your server - and people would want to group with you. And you made friends in this process. Heck, I still talk to some guys that I met back in Vanilla WoW, and this is how I met them (and ended up guilding with them, although we've all long since quit). If you were a jerk or a ninja looter, people knew - you earned a reputation. Now it's just anonymous garbage. Don't need to group. Don't need to socialize. Queue from orgrimmar or stormwind and do a 10 minute completely forgettable instance.

I know some prefer this method of playing. I've heard it all before. "I can only play 30 minutes a day" blah blah blah. WoW's continual catering to a dumbed down, casual, anonymous game that doesn't require socializing and is just a mad rush for purples killed all MMOs for me. I know some prefer this way, that's great, folks are welcome to that opinion and I don't feel like arguing about it, but to me the game just isn't the same. I *want* to explore. I want to socialize. I want to take the time to find dungeons instead of anonymously queueing from Org. I want that sense of adventure. I want max level to take a LONG time so I can savor the journey, as we did in EQ - I remember getting tells server wide at max level in EQ. It was great. WoW killed ALL of that. To me MMOs are completely dead, and I won't miss them. Which is too bad because early WoW, EQ and UO were such compelling games to me. That feeling is just long gone now. And apparently i'm not the only one since WoW's sub numbers are continually dropping and every pay to play MMO has failed. MMOs are long in the tooth. Call it a day, someone please re-establish something NEW in this genre - otherwise I am not interested in a game that takes 2 days for max level. Give me a memorable journey, a LONG role playing game, something to SAVOR instead of a pump and dump mad rush for purples.
 
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CWRMadcat

Senior member
Jun 19, 2001
402
0
71
Wow. This post is perfect, and describes just the way I feel about WoW these days - I played closed beta and played it from years upon release at Nov. 2004. The game isn't the same now. The exploration, banding together with friends, tightly knit server communities, and difficulty is just gone. While some heroic raids are difficult, overall the game is a complete joke - I remember doing UBRS with friends back at level 60 and it was genuinely memorable and tough as a freshly geared 60 in greens. We had to pay attention, but still had fun chatting on ventrilo - and the dungeons took a while but it was worth it because it was so memorable and fun. Now, aside from heroic raids nothing is difficult - it's just a mad rush to max level while barely paying attention - just a complete rush to max level, but they completely forgot what made MMOs so enjoyable in the first place - not max level, but the JOURNEY TO GET THERE. That is why I loved Vanilla/TBC so much. The journey was so memorable. You had to depend on friends that you were tightly knit with. It wasn't a mad rush to get all purples - everyone had fun because there was an outlet for every tier of player. Not just a mad rush to get max level and get purples in every slot.

Now the game is completely anonymous and unless you do heroic raids, you can just sit in orgrimmar and queue garbage nonstop. Dungeon? Que it up. 10 minute pump and dump forgettable instance. Yawn. Pvp? Que it up. No exploration. Minimal interaction except with anonymous scumbags who troll you. The game is so different now, and I hate it. You can play the entire game from your main city by queueing unless you do heroic raids. You don't even need a guild for normal raids because they're so easy.

Apparently, people don't want to take the time to find groups. Whatever. To me this was one of the most fun things about vanilla and TBC - you had to establish yourself as someone friendly and skilled, and you earned a reputation on your server - and people would want to group with you. And you made friends in this process. Heck, I still talk to some guys that I met back in Vanilla WoW, and this is how I met them (and ended up guilding with them, although we've all long since quit). If you were a jerk or a ninja looter, people knew - you earned a reputation. Now it's just anonymous garbage. Don't need to group. Don't need to socialize. Queue from orgrimmar or stormwind and do a 10 minute completely forgettable instance.

I know some prefer this method of playing. I've heard it all before. "I can only play 30 minutes a day" blah blah blah. WoW's continual catering to a dumbed down, casual, anonymous game that doesn't require socializing and is just a mad rush for purples killed all MMOs for me. I know some prefer this way, that's great, folks are welcome to that opinion and I don't feel like arguing about it, but to me the game just isn't the same. I *want* to explore. I want to socialize. I want to take the time to find dungeons instead of anonymously queueing from Org. I want that sense of adventure. I want max level to take a LONG time so I can savor the journey, as we did in EQ - I remember getting tells server wide at max level in EQ. It was great. WoW killed ALL of that. To me MMOs are completely dead, and I won't miss them. Which is too bad because early WoW, EQ and UO were such compelling games to me. That feeling is just long gone now. And apparently i'm not the only one since WoW's sub numbers are continually dropping and every pay to play MMO has failed. MMOs are long in the tooth. Call it a day, someone please re-establish something NEW in this genre - otherwise I am not interested in a game that takes 2 days for max level. Give me a memorable journey, a LONG role playing game, something to SAVOR instead of a pump and dump mad rush for purples.
Yeah, you can credit Blizzard for making an MMO for people who apparently don't like MMO's but insist on playing anyway so they can slam epics (lol) on 12 characters.

But that's always been my concern with every followup MMO. They're so infatuated by WoW's financial success that they keep resorting to copying the same experience.
 

Bateluer

Lifer
Jun 23, 2001
27,730
7
0
I like Rift. I like the way it plays.. I like the art, the story, etc. I think it's a gem. clone or not.
This is exactly why good MMOs died, people only buy WoW and WoW clones. Therefore publishers only finance WoW clones.
 

railven

Diamond Member
Mar 25, 2010
6,604
561
126
I get the feeling from opinions in this thread, people are bitter of Blizzard's runaway success with WoW causing their preferred formed of MMO to be abandoned.

After playing so many freaking MMOs (my GF is an MMO junkie) I can safely say, there is only one WoW. Every other MMO stands on it own, falls on its own, and frankly I don't play any of these other MMOs muttering to myself "LOL WoW CLONEZ" or "man feels like I'm playing WoW."

I guess every current FPS is either CoD or Halo :hmm:
 

diesbudt

Diamond Member
Jun 1, 2012
3,393
0
0
I get the feeling from opinions in this thread, people are bitter of Blizzard's runaway success with WoW causing their preferred formed of MMO to be abandoned.

After playing so many freaking MMOs (my GF is an MMO junkie) I can safely say, there is only one WoW. Every other MMO stands on it own, falls on its own, and frankly I don't play any of these other MMOs muttering to myself "LOL WoW CLONEZ" or "man feels like I'm playing WoW."

I guess every current FPS is either CoD or Halo :hmm:
Yes, that is the same feeling I get too. And people believe that it is financial success as why some MMOs try to take some of that success.

It isn't. The MMO scene has changed. First tier MMOs had a very different population. With an older average age and a different game time period, and people who would take the time and grind out a game and not try to complete everything.

That was over 13 years ago. Now MMOs have to appeal to the market that is now, not then. The now does not care too much about those difficult from start to finish games anymore. So the Genre had to adapt and make it both easy and hard, doing this without breaking the game isn't exactly easy. And Honestly I don't see too much innovation left in the MMO-RPG scene without stripping away the RPG part of the title. (Which is fine, I have always wondered about MMO-Racing, or MMO-whatever validity, especially the self named MMO-TCG I am waiting to try).
 

ewdotson

Golden Member
Oct 30, 2011
1,295
1,518
136
I get the appeal for group-centric games, but I think people sometimes look back at them with rose-tinted glasses. The first month or so of Everquest was one of my all-time favorite stretches of gaming. I fell in with a great group of people, we pretty much always had a group going, we oftentimes did crazy, silly stuff and just had a blast.

I also, however, remember one of my other stretches of playing the game. I burned out that time on having entirely too many nights where I sat in PoK, periodically spamming "/ooc Level blahblah rogue, lfg, blahblah"". Occassionally I'd change things up by running out to the popular leveling spots to try to find a group directly. And logging after a couple of hours, not having completely a darned thing. That's quite as bad of an experience as a quality group is a good one.

I'm not sure there's a good solution for that. Driving paying customers away is not a good thing. Server-wide lfg functions aren't a terrible compromise, but I'll agree with others in this thread that WoW eventually became entirely too anonymous, fracturing the community. (Imo, it was when the lfg queues went from server-wide to battlegroup-wide, but ymmv.)
 

blackened23

Diamond Member
Jul 26, 2011
8,548
2
0
I get the feeling from opinions in this thread, people are bitter of Blizzard's runaway success with WoW causing their preferred formed of MMO to be abandoned.

After playing so many freaking MMOs (my GF is an MMO junkie) I can safely say, there is only one WoW. Every other MMO stands on it own, falls on its own, and frankly I don't play any of these other MMOs muttering to myself "LOL WoW CLONEZ" or "man feels like I'm playing WoW."

I guess every current FPS is either CoD or Halo :hmm:
Nah. It all boils down to what is fun or not fun for me. I'm not trying to force my opinion on anyone - if someone likes the new style, hey that's cool. :).

I don't. I miss the old way. I miss the harder way. I want to savor the journey, slowly enjoy the exploration! I want the exploration, socialization, and game-wide difficulty (not JUST heroic raids being difficult). If WoW is successful or not successful, I really don't care - it just boils down to what is fun and isn't fun.

I also quite like Call of Duty despite everyone else here apparently hating it ;) I still play Black Ops 2 all the time. Financial success is about the last consideration I have when playing the game, honestly I don't think about it ever. Blizzard can make a gabillion dollars and buy 17 3rd world countries, hey good for them. But I still won't find WoW fun with the new system. Of course I realize this is all subjective - some people like the new way. Myself and nearly all of my friends who played early on hate it.
 
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diesbudt

Diamond Member
Jun 1, 2012
3,393
0
0
Nah. It all boils down to what is fun or not fun for me. I'm not trying to force my opinion on anyone - if someone likes the new style, hey that's cool. :).

I don't. I miss the old way. I miss the harder way. I want the exploration, socialization, and game-wide difficulty (not JUST heroic raids being difficult). If WoW is successful or not successful, I really don't care - it just boils down to what is fun and isn't fun.

I also quite like Call of Duty despite everyone else here apparently hating it ;) I still play Black Ops 2 all the time.
Bingo. The current generation/MMO-market is filling fast with millenials. Those who believe in entitlements and everything should be fair for everyone. The old MMO style just isn't marketable.

Even myself who really enjoyed the old MMOs. After 5 years on WoW and trying rift, GW2, Swtor on and on. I went back and loaded up the older MMO I was heavily hooked on. First 30 minutes I was giddy with excitement being back. By minute 36 or 37 it dawned on me how shitty these games were now.

A lot of the people missing those old times miss the "feeling" it gave. Not the game itself. And that feeling most of the time was given to the first MMO one played. As it was the first to emerse you in this huge genre.
 

railven

Diamond Member
Mar 25, 2010
6,604
561
126
I'm not sure there's a good solution for that. Driving paying customers away is not a good thing. Server-wide lfg functions aren't a terrible compromise, but I'll agree with others in this thread that WoW eventually became entirely too anonymous, fracturing the community. (Imo, it was when the lfg queues went from server-wide to battlegroup-wide, but ymmv.)
I personally feel this is the fault of the communities and people's own personal greed/self interest.

My WoW Vanilla/TBC career involved me being a solo-player. I don't much like to socialize outside of my (at the time) small group of IRL who played. But we did everything together and I never found myself in the /LFM trade talk. If I wanted to do it, I'd ask them, if they wanted to we'd go, other wise I'd go do other stuff.

Fast forward to end of TBC and they were getting into raiding guilds. I tagged along just because I didn't want to be odd-man out. What I discovered is that most communities back then were pretty much assholes. At least on my server. It felt like high school. Rumors about other players, we don't social we these guilds, we have these strict rules, these players are privileged and you aren't, you get no loot until you establish yourself, etc etc.

I got kicked out of our first raiding guild because (at the time I didn't know it was the GM's son, regardless who it was) I told some asshole who kept criticizing me how I played. I out DPSed the kid, and I wasn't using all the cool fancy macros, but I got my job done and he seemed to not like that I wasn't focusing endlessly on rotations and what not. So I told him off, got kicked, and then a few whispers of "glad someone finally did that" and what not.

That's the community people miss? Eff that. Seriously.

Started my own Guild in WOTLK, still strong in MOP, and until ToT we were getting stuff done at our own pace. I grew a rep on our server as "a RL who's friendly and is always willing to give new people a shot." In the end, once my IRL friends left towards the end of Cata - WoW lost almost all value.

Community definitely plays a large portion of this game, but as you said - I found zero interest in sitting in LFM for hours. I welcomed LFG/LFD because now if my friends were busy I can at least try to get some of my Valor.

And the attitudes I run into LFG/LFD only remind me of the attitudes I experienced through out my whole WoW career. No one truly cares about anyone unless they're obligated too. I've reported a-holes to GMs from other guilds, what good does it do? Said a-holes still were a-holes and depending on their level of popularity on the server, they're encouraged a-holes.

Bah now I'm just ranting haha.
 

railven

Diamond Member
Mar 25, 2010
6,604
561
126
Nah. It all boils down to what is fun or not fun for me. I'm not trying to force my opinion on anyone - if someone likes the new style, hey that's cool. :).
See my most recent post. Sort of answers this.

I also quite like Call of Duty despite everyone else here apparently hating it ;) I still play Black Ops 2 all the time. Financial success is about the last consideration I have when playing the game, honestly I don't think about it ever. Blizzard can make a gabillion dollars and buy 17 3rd world countries, hey good for them. But I still won't find WoW fun with the new system. Of course I realize this is all subjective - some people like the new way. Myself and nearly all of my friends who played early on hate it.
I got nothing aginst CoD, personally I hate most FPS MP but that's because I suck. Either way, the new style...not really sure what you mean.

LFR? LFD? Dailies? Beside LFR/LFD this stuff has been here for ages. I remember joining my friends in TBC to rep grind, I hated it then, I hate it now. I was probably the last of my guildies to hit exalted with Golden Lotus, I still out geared most of them ;)

My personal interpretation of "new style" often boils down to people's own opinions of the game and approach. Since I still do stuff the same way, I don't really see much change. The few changes I see are more so returns to an old system (to me MoP is more TBC than WOTLK/CATA were, and if not for LFR I would not be raiding this tier, by which I mean how I got myself raid-ready in terms of gear.)

But that's my opinuon, and without real folk to drive my interest WoW is just another game I occasionally play to pass time.
 

akugami

Diamond Member
Feb 14, 2005
4,798
376
126
I get the appeal for group-centric games, but I think people sometimes look back at them with rose-tinted glasses. The first month or so of Everquest was one of my all-time favorite stretches of gaming. I fell in with a great group of people, we pretty much always had a group going, we oftentimes did crazy, silly stuff and just had a blast.
To be fair and honest, I do recognize a game such as EQ1 is dated. There are some game mechanics that are no longer fun. However, the core experience that I remember so fondly in EQ1 is really the interaction with other players and the fact that almost nothing was handed to you on a silver platter.

Sony can also learn from games like Rift which has pretty good dungeon designs and boss encounters. I also like the flexibility of the multi-soul system in Rift. I don't think EQ Next needs to go full out with the level of flexibility of Rift but at least allow some flexibility. For example, an enchanter should have two specs they can choose at will with some restrictions, such as needing to be out of combat. A more damage oriented spec with the Charm line and debuffs as the primary spells and crowd control and buffs as secondary. And a more support oriented spec with buffs and crowd control as the primary and any damage oriented spells secondary. Clerics can go full healing, or spec as a paladin for some melee action.
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
346
126
I get the appeal for group-centric games, but I think people sometimes look back at them with rose-tinted glasses. The first month or so of Everquest was one of my all-time favorite stretches of gaming. I fell in with a great group of people, we pretty much always had a group going, we oftentimes did crazy, silly stuff and just had a blast.

I also, however, remember one of my other stretches of playing the game. I burned out that time on having entirely too many nights where I sat in PoK, periodically spamming "/ooc Level blahblah rogue, lfg, blahblah"". Occassionally I'd change things up by running out to the popular leveling spots to try to find a group directly. And logging after a couple of hours, not having completely a darned thing. That's quite as bad of an experience as a quality group is a good one.

I'm not sure there's a good solution for that. Driving paying customers away is not a good thing. Server-wide lfg functions aren't a terrible compromise, but I'll agree with others in this thread that WoW eventually became entirely too anonymous, fracturing the community. (Imo, it was when the lfg queues went from server-wide to battlegroup-wide, but ymmv.)
You're right. EQ had a lot of good but was a game you could log into, spend a few hours looking for a group, and log off without getting almost anything done.
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
346
126
I like Rift. I like the way it plays.. I like the art, the story, etc. I think it's a gem. clone or not.
Every MMO is in good part a clone, with some twists. Rift is WoW with common complaints addressed. WoW was EQ with a big content budget and easy of play increased.

EQ might have been the biggest advance - but even its designers called it a 'graphical MUD' and gave full credit to the MUDs the played.

And MUDs were largely based on D&D type games, and all the dungeon crawlers seem to be inspired by rogue going back. Rogue was innovative.
 

Aikouka

Lifer
Nov 27, 2001
30,367
891
126
I think that World of Warcraft definitely changed the way that I look at playing a MMO. I started off rather wide-eyed and enamored by the world, but after seven years, I grew rather cynical of everything. I didn't care about much more than getting into the latest raid and taking down a boss. Leveling became nothing more than a chore; it was a roadblock that gated me to the next tier of real content. This was especially true as I sat there leveling more and more characters, which made the leveling content even more stale. It didn't help that the content wasn't really difficult at all, but there were times when I made it more difficult to make it more exciting. I recall a few times where I would solo elites because it was more fun to do it that way. It would actually require me to think about proper execution to ensure that I could heal enough to survive. This was mostly on my Rogue, so I had to interleave such trickery as a blind-n-bandage.
 

ViviTheMage

Lifer
Dec 12, 2002
36,184
77
91
madgenius.com
They should make a more hardcore MMO ... you die, your lose everything you are carrying sort of game. Or you die, you get deleveled....granted I am more PvP centric so this would be fun deleveling people as you woop em.

The only part I enjoy about WoW now is leveling ... endgame is no fun, so much of a 'job'.
 

KaOTiK

Lifer
Feb 5, 2001
10,877
7
81
I miss the, enjoy the journey part of leveling. It wasn't about getting max level as each level was an accomplishment in older MMO's. So you enjoyed the journey and care about getting gear leveling up because you would use it for awhile.

Nowadays, you can blow through a handful of levels in a few hours that makes doing anything but leveling a waste of time. Why bother doing a dungeon run or camping a rare when you will out level the item quicker then it took you to obtain it in most cases.

Stuff is just designed now with min/max in mind. I remember raiding in EQ and stuff, you didn't need to be max level, just usually within 10 levels of max, and if you were a healer they would make exceptions for you in most cases as healers are always in short supply.

Just a totally different experience from old to new.

Both have pros and cons but I think the new went way overboard and brought more cons than pros.
 

ViviTheMage

Lifer
Dec 12, 2002
36,184
77
91
madgenius.com
I remember playing priston tale long ago ... sitting in a hell spawn for 4 hours, gaining a quarter level, and then dieing, to lose all that time, LOL ...
 

JeffMD

Platinum Member
Feb 15, 2002
2,026
19
81
GW2 was a good game that tried new innovations. Only main issues I ahd with it were 2 things.

1. Early on all the server hopping so populations fluxuated to much based on WvWvW stuff.

2. Removing the "roles", while awesome in theory, made the game just a spam/dodge stuff fest. Which is the same as any MMO except strategy of tanks, healers and other things were removed. I looked forward to a world with no "roles" but I think Id like it better where any class could specialize into any of the 3 roles, than none and just people bum-rush things dodging stuff.
#1 this hasn't been the case for a while, servers are now locked aside from expensive gem moves. You can now guest to other servers anytime you want for PvE, as well as form groups for PvE between servers for dungeons, and maybe PvP, but WvW is restricted to home worlds only.

#2 spam dodge stuff fest? you can't spam dodge. I however prefer GW2's methods. There is some group party effects that help each other, namely in the realm of removing conditions, but it is more or less up to the player to either tank/control agro or prevent damage/redirect agro. There is a reason the majority of skills can be used while moving, don't stand still.
 

RPD

Diamond Member
Jul 22, 2009
4,565
222
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For myself it was a combination of reasons that have already been harped on akugami & blackened23.

I remember LOVING WoW not all of pre-BC, but the patch that brought BC talents in before the content then almost all of BC. I also quit playing during BC, but I had the most fun of exploring, random world PVP while leveling and the tight nit odd ball group to do the instances (druid tank, paladin heal, mage and warrior DPS), we all started getting bored when we discovered heroic gear was a joke and arena wasn't favored toward skill but rather who sunk in more time to get gear first. After our core group stopped playing (and the same can be said in most MMO type games), trying to play again with people you haven't built up relationships with just isn't the same.

The last issue of relationships happened to me through MUD type games and EQ. For me, once that crowd you are familiar with playing day or night, hearing the voices on vent are gone, that emotional attachment for that game is no longer there either.

I took a step back an thought about what I wanted from a game, fun first of all, but I wanted to play a game that rewarded skill or at the very least catered or heavily slanted towards skill vs. how much time you sank in. So for awhile I just played DotA style games. But since my family has grown (2 boys under 3yrs old) I changed what I could play as well. Basically I won't play again game that I can't pause, so all online stuff, is pretty much gone, unless you can get to a safe spot while solo'ing fast. Now I find myself not really interested in most any new games and stick to find player modifications to older games. I attribute this to my age (33) and having gamed through most of my life I just don't enjoy most of what is out there or the online enviroment.
 

flexy

Diamond Member
Sep 28, 2001
8,464
154
106
A lot of the people missing those old times miss the "feeling" it gave. Not the game itself. And that feeling most of the time was given to the first MMO one played. As it was the first to emerse you in this huge genre.
I think this is true for many games, eg. if I think back about playing games back on a C64 or Amiga just to realize how incredible 'primitive' the games were at that time...but does not entirely apply to WoW or MMORPGs in general, at least for me.

First, Wow wasn't the first MMORPG and many people who palyed and loved Wow LIKELY also already played DAoC, EQ, UO etc...so the genre and the MMORPG concept was nothing new for many people.

In this case I really don't think that it's really "player fatigue" but rather on account of many negatives changes WoW did. As I said earlier, I might as well STILL play today and still enjoy exploration and adventure because the game *per se* was good at one time.

Rather than down-dumbing the game constantly and actively make NEGATIVE changes, they could have "just" added new zones, fixed bugs etc. to keep the game interesting with areas "to explore".

(By the way the WoW world IS huge and even when I still played there were zones I never saw before even after years playing, just as an example).

But WoW of course went the exact opposite route and sacrificed those good elements and replaced it with "insta-gratification" and "buy a mount for $30" nonsense, along with things like eliminating class quests, allowing flying everywhere etc...which gradually literally killed ALL adventure/exploration aspects of the game.

The fun in the game once was that you were immersed in a "virtual world" where, as you say already, you could explore and go on adventures...TODAY what you do is log in and queue up and then wait because you KNOW that if you don't beat a boss in this or that raid you will never get this or that piece of equipment...and the rest is doing dailies where you repeat the same thing over and over and over.

This has nothing to do with "player fatigue" where a genre simply becomes less attractive in time...but more with really bad, bad changes which were made to an otherwise good game. You know, people STILL play good RPGs if certain things are right, people still play shooters if they're done right and so forth. WoW COULD still be appealing today if bliz would not have done those things.
 

Kristijonas

Senior member
Jun 11, 2011
859
4
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I will advertise a solution.
Old Ultima Online players might be interested in a fully-customized, forced RP shard, Khaeros. Try it and you might get a fix for your addiction ;)
 

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