Why my Mom thinks "No child left behind" is a bad idea.

[cKGunslinger]

Originally posted by: Taejin
Lol. No Child Left Behind is being implemented by a man who was Left Behind in School. How would someone so far down at the bottom even be qualified to suggest that a program like this be implemented..haha.

LOL! ROFLMAO! That's *so* funny and true! Haha! :roll:

 

[Taejin]

EDIT: The Prereq I'm referring to is parents who are interested in education.

Actually, I think this is a sufficient prereq.

I come from a culture where education is paramount, and people put more effort in a few months than most US students do in a year. I know this because I can compare the disparity between my cousins and me. My cousins are a product of Korean education, while I'm born and raised American.

It is funny, because I am supposedly the product of "higher learning" going to a magnet program in high school and all that (finished Multivar calc in highschool, it was easier in college than HS, etc). What left me dumbfound was that kids in Korea who opt for the math/science oriented track REGULARLY all learn at least multivariable calculus in highschool.

Korea's educational system is not strong because a couple politicians decided they would make it strong. It is strong because there is a grass-roots support from parents and a education-based cultural value that is much stronger than it is in the states. Discipline of students does not come from teachers, but from parents, who keep education as a primary focus in life from the moment children enter preschool.

I honestly believe US' days as a forerunner in technology are numbered as long as people from other countries come and enrich the ranks of researchers and professionals. When their native countries improve and become a comparable place to live, we will fall behind eventually. Unless something changes with the mindset pertaining to education.

Let me restate that education is an all-overriding objective for many people in places like China, Japan and Korea. Their school years are longer (vacation is month and a half long), they take classes AFTER school and during vacation, and their personal success is dependent on how well they do on their tests (kind of like the SATs, but with MUCH more weight).

EDIT2: Look at South Korea. It has only been 50 years since the Korean War, and from blood, dust and ashes they've already become a tour de force within the technological sector. In terms of electronics, the everday Korean is far far ahead of the everyday American. Look at the companies you see when you buy your products: Daewoo, Samsung, LG Electronics. Even a decade ago you NEVER saw these guys listed as products people would recommend first. S. Korea's ascent into technology is not a mistake, is not an accident. It is a deliberate progression made possible by a culture who works their asses off to get ahead of everyone else.

 

[cKGunslinger]

And let's not forget to put some of the blame all the 87 Senators that voted for NCLB.

text

 

[Taejin]

I'd also like for people to examine where their products are being developed and made. We obviously see Microsoft as THE giant, and the US is still strong when it comes to software and forerunner technologies - but look at the companies that build all your parts and develop new technologies.

There is a definite trend going on, and there is a reason behind it all.

 

[alphatarget1]

Holding teachers responsible for retarded (stupid, not mentally retarded) kids is a bad idea. Standardized tests are not bad IMO. Parents need to understand that they need to help the kids too, and teachers can't do everything.

With that said, our culture promotes violence and luxury and a lot of kids' perspective on things are just plain wrong. Who cares about being a doctor, scientist or engineer when everyone wants to live like a rich rapper? Unless this mentality changes our society is destined to be fvcked, with dumb kids becoming dumb parents, thus raising more dumb kids.

 

[cKGunslinger]

Originally posted by: Taejin
I'd also like for people to examine where their products are being developed and made. We obviously see Microsoft as THE giant, and the US is still strong when it comes to software and forerunner technologies - but look at the companies that build all your parts and develop new technologies.

There is a definite trend going on, and there is a reason behind it all.

This thread was supposed to be about NCLB (which was enacted about 3 years ago). Go start another thread if you want to discuss the technological superiority of Korea over the US.

 

[JustAnAverageGuy]

Originally posted by: cKGunslinger
This thread was supposed to be about NCLB (which was enacted about 3 years ago). Go start another thread if you want to discuss the technological superiority of Korea over the US.

He's saying that the NCLB alone won't help the US. It's reasons like involvement from parents and students themselves that other countries are progressing.

 

[HeroOfPellinor]

Damn you Dead Poet Society....making everybody think teaching is like being Peter Pan. Then they realize there's a job to do and start voting Democrat to get out of having to actually do it.

 

[CADsortaGUY]

Originally posted by: conjur

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY

Originally posted by: conjur

Originally posted by: polm
My Mom teached 2nd grade here in lovely Tennessee.

She is very upset about the "No child left behind" program. This is why;

No child left behind requires regular standardized testing to fascilitate an accountability mechanism.

The N.C.L.B. ends up forcing Teachers to teach to a test. They are given no freedom to teach creatively or to adapt their lesson plans themselves.

Their ability to be effective through creativity is destroyed.

Teachers will become less and less enthusistic as they are , annualy, forced to teach the same standardized material through standardized teaching methods.

On N.C.L.B teachers CAN receive Bonus's and Raises based directly on the test scores. For teachers in many situations, (resource students for example), acheiving regular overall positive scores on these tests is impossible.

This plan basically destroys many teachers incentive to teach. They are turned into mindless robots who teach directly from a book for a specific test.


Just a teacher's opinion. Anyone else have any thoughts on the matter ?

My sister works with Exceptional Needs Children in the local school system here. She's been doing it for years. NCLB comes around and she hates it. So does every other teacher she knows.

They are required to give the same tests to the students who lack the mental capacity to score at the same levels as normal children. This requires more of her time to coach these kids to take this test. Schools that fail to do so suffer accordingly.

It's an unfair punishment on our school systems.

This is about the only "issue" I have with NCLB -because it doesn't force the system to change how "special needs" kids are dealt with so it lumps them all in with the "mainstream". Now as to the fix? Test them all, but make sure those that are FULL special needs aren't figured into the tally. This however does leave room for those that will return to the "mainstream" will be counted and assessed on the same level as their peers. (this assumes we keep the failed school system structure we currently have).

However the easiest way to take care of this issue is to have a progress based school system. Sure - you won't always be with the same age kids - but you will be with the same level off learning. That way - when you get to these tests - you either pass or you don't for each subject. If you pass one portion(math) - you don't have to redo it - even if you fail a different portion(reading). See how simple that is? Ofcourse that would toss our current system onto it's head....so it won't be implemented - too many entrenched interest groups...

CsG

Have to be careful with that latter proposal. If a child falls too far behind in age group, they tend to drop out.

I understand - but the problem is that you can't hold the rest back just because some don't learn as fast or struggle in certain areas. The point is that there would be no "social school" as in being with the same group of kids throughout your k-12 education. You'd be with those of your learning level. Like I said - it puts our current system on it's head. Sure, it'd take some time for people to get accustomed to it - but it's better than keeping this failed system in place.
Someday I hope things will be so I can fully explain...🙂

CsG

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

Originally posted by: Dissipate

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: Dissipate
I think your mom needs to quit her job and get off the taxpayer dole. Who cares about the "No Child Left Behind Act." The truth of the matter is your mother is participating in a government racket of epic proportions.

:roll:
Welfare is the taxpayer dole. Corporate subsidies are the taxpayer dole. Public education is necessary to ensure an informed, educated electorate, and is crucial to the stability of any representative form of government.

I agree. You are correct, public education is crucial to the "stablity" of the current plutocracy. How else could the Establishment sell their system to millions of kids?

Cool. Never seen anyone advocating wholesale illiteracy before.

 

[Hossenfeffer]

Not a fan of NCLB here.

 

[Isla]

Originally posted by: HeroOfPellinor
Damn you Dead Poet Society....making everybody think teaching is like being Peter Pan. Then they realize there's a job to do and start voting Democrat to get out of having to actually do it.

Wow.

In the 4 different elementary schools I have taught and volunteered at, I have NEVER met a teacher who thought he or she was Peter Pan. They were all mostly very concerned mom and/or dad types who understand implicitly that the future IS our children.

 

[JustAnAverageGuy]

Originally posted by: ReiAyanami
every choice in life can be answered with a bubble and a #2 pencil

🙁 , but true for school

 

[HeroOfPellinor]

Originally posted by: Isla

Originally posted by: HeroOfPellinor
Damn you Dead Poet Society....making everybody think teaching is like being Peter Pan. Then they realize there's a job to do and start voting Democrat to get out of having to actually do it.

They were all mostly very concerned mom and/or dad types who understand implicitly that the future IS our children.

:roll:

 

[Jadow]

I say test those brats all we need to, and if they fail, don't pass them. I know we'd end up with 18 year old 6th graders, but what the hey...

Life is a test.

 

[Jadow]

I know don't like how standardized testing is going because more and more time goes to teaching to pass the tests.

yeah, but that means they're actually learning the stuff. I have no problem with teaching to pass the tests. If the test has some algebra in it, then TEACH algebra. If the test has reading comp, teach them how to comprehend what they read...

 

[SP33Demon]

Originally posted by: Jadow
I know don't like how standardized testing is going because more and more time goes to teaching to pass the tests.

yeah, but that means they're actually learning the stuff. I have no problem with teaching to pass the tests. If the test has some algebra in it, then TEACH algebra. If the test has reading comp, teach them how to comprehend what they read...

If NCLB doesn't allow the teacher to teach algebra effectively, because the books and methods have been standardized, then NCLB needs to be amended. I'm not against kids learning the materials and being tested, but don't limit the teachers' methods for teaching and their materials.

 

[Jadow]

They are required to give the same tests to the students who lack the mental capacity to score at the same levels as normal children.

LOL, this just cracked me up. It made me think of a kid I went to middle and high school with, he was like semi retarded. He ended up working in some special program at the university in town doing janitorial stuff and so forth. Good for him I thought, he was doing his part and not just leeching off soceity. Then he got into some kind of r-tard rage and ran a kid over with his car. Just thought I'd share.

 

[wiin]

those having problem with No Child Left Behind are people afraid of change.

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: wiin
those having problem with No Child Left Behind are people afraid of change.

LOL :roll:

Your argument is unbelievably weak. So if we rescinded laws against murder, and you opposed that, would that be only because you are afraid of change?

 

[HeroOfPellinor]

Originally posted by: SP33Demon

Originally posted by: Jadow
I know don't like how standardized testing is going because more and more time goes to teaching to pass the tests.

yeah, but that means they're actually learning the stuff. I have no problem with teaching to pass the tests. If the test has some algebra in it, then TEACH algebra. If the test has reading comp, teach them how to comprehend what they read...

If NCLB doesn't allow the teacher to teach algebra effectively, because the books and methods have been standardized, then NCLB needs to be amended. I'm not against kids learning the materials and being tested, but don't limit the teachers' methods for teaching and their materials.

If you were the manager of a McDonald's would you let the new workers figure out what the best way to cook the burgers is or would you smack them upside the head with a manual and make them memorize it? It's oversimplification, of course, but it's true for anything where you have federal accountability.

A teacher may THINK they have some splendid new way to teach trigonometry so that every kid can get it, but then, oops, they were wrong and now a couple hundred kids head off to college with substandard math skills. And because we have no standardized tests, there's no way to know this is happening until a decade later when a generation of kids is entering the workforce unprepared. The blame will be shifted to the principal and then the superintendent and then on up the chain to some politician who is going to feel the heat for it. What's he gonna say, "Don't limit the teachers' methods for teaching and their materials."? Are you going to buy that as a parent if one of those kids was yours?

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

Originally posted by: HeroOfPellinor

Originally posted by: SP33Demon

Originally posted by: Jadow
I know don't like how standardized testing is going because more and more time goes to teaching to pass the tests.

yeah, but that means they're actually learning the stuff. I have no problem with teaching to pass the tests. If the test has some algebra in it, then TEACH algebra. If the test has reading comp, teach them how to comprehend what they read...

If NCLB doesn't allow the teacher to teach algebra effectively, because the books and methods have been standardized, then NCLB needs to be amended. I'm not against kids learning the materials and being tested, but don't limit the teachers' methods for teaching and their materials.

If you were the manager of a McDonald's would you let the new workers figure out what the best way to cook the burgers is or would you smack them upside the head with a manual and make them memorize it? It's oversimplification, of course, but it's true for anything where you have federal accountability.

A teacher may THINK they have some splendid new way to teach trigonometry so that every kid can get it, but then, oops, they were wrong and now a couple hundred kids head off to college with substandard math skills. And because we have no standardized tests, there's no way to know this is happening until a decade later when a generation of kids is entering the workforce unprepared. The blame will be shifted to the principal and then the superintendent and then on up the chain to some politician who is going to feel the heat for it. What's he gonna say, "Don't limit the teachers' methods for teaching and their materials."? Are you going to buy that as a parent if one of those kids was yours?

So where do you live where this can happen. Not in NY. Teacher have to submit their curriculum in advance. If they are going to divine the rules of math by augury then it's going to get noticed. Maybe your state is different, or maybe you don't know how things actually work. Your :roll: in reply to Isla suggests that much is true.

 

[HeroOfPellinor]

Originally posted by: WinstonSmith

Originally posted by: HeroOfPellinor

Originally posted by: SP33Demon

Originally posted by: Jadow
I know don't like how standardized testing is going because more and more time goes to teaching to pass the tests.

yeah, but that means they're actually learning the stuff. I have no problem with teaching to pass the tests. If the test has some algebra in it, then TEACH algebra. If the test has reading comp, teach them how to comprehend what they read...

If NCLB doesn't allow the teacher to teach algebra effectively, because the books and methods have been standardized, then NCLB needs to be amended. I'm not against kids learning the materials and being tested, but don't limit the teachers' methods for teaching and their materials.

If you were the manager of a McDonald's would you let the new workers figure out what the best way to cook the burgers is or would you smack them upside the head with a manual and make them memorize it? It's oversimplification, of course, but it's true for anything where you have federal accountability.

A teacher may THINK they have some splendid new way to teach trigonometry so that every kid can get it, but then, oops, they were wrong and now a couple hundred kids head off to college with substandard math skills. And because we have no standardized tests, there's no way to know this is happening until a decade later when a generation of kids is entering the workforce unprepared. The blame will be shifted to the principal and then the superintendent and then on up the chain to some politician who is going to feel the heat for it. What's he gonna say, "Don't limit the teachers' methods for teaching and their materials."? Are you going to buy that as a parent if one of those kids was yours?

So where do you live where this can happen. Not in NY. Teacher have to submit their curriculum in advance. If they are going to divine the rules of math by augury then it's going to get noticed. Maybe your state is different, or maybe you don't know how things actually work. Your :roll: in reply to Isla suggests that much is true.

I live in California. Maybe it's just that I was a student recently and have some actual experiences with these hippy-ass slacker teachers.

I passed a Spanish class where we learned about a dozen words and mostly listened to the teacher sing and tell us stories......in English. An English teacher there did NOTHING in any class except show movies. Yeah, REAL dedicated to our children's future. Most teachers I knew were teaching for any number of ignoble reasons. Some like feeling superior, some did it because they needed a job, some did it because they felt passionatly about the subject matter, some did it because of the security or pay or lack of competition, and, ya, some did it because they like kids......but assuming that all or most of them do is......silly, to put it nicely.

Feel passionatly about that children are the future? :roll: So they aren't trying to be Peter Pan, they're actually trying to be the Jesus figure saving the woeful children from themselves. Splendid. I'm sure it's been working fantastically with our scores consistently dropping. :roll: Hey, I've got an idea. Since it's a child's parents who have the greatest impact on their kids future, why don't we work towards strengthening marriage and family values and individual morality to give kids better homes? Oh, I forgot, the teachers are the designated catchers in the rye. Pardon me.

I have a substitute credential, took the CBEST and Praxis and SSAT, and actually started classes for my teaching credential. I knew others becoming teachers and some who went on to be teachers. You know what, our children's future was the last thing on anybody's mind. It's not the job of a teacher to be a kid's savior....you're there to help them learn whatever subject you're teaching. You're a bit player in their life who's presence they tolerate and you'll hardly have time to garner any personal credibility before they're long gone.

FWIW, I dropped out of the courses when I realized I'd have to teach in the same structured format I've defended above. I didn't want to have to make kids read X number of books. I wanted to experiment with formats and have an enjoyable time and try to unlock the beauty of literature and composition. But that's just not the job description and anybody who went through with the training and education knew that.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

Originally posted by: HeroOfPellinor

Originally posted by: WinstonSmith

Originally posted by: HeroOfPellinor

Originally posted by: SP33Demon

Originally posted by: Jadow
I know don't like how standardized testing is going because more and more time goes to teaching to pass the tests.

yeah, but that means they're actually learning the stuff. I have no problem with teaching to pass the tests. If the test has some algebra in it, then TEACH algebra. If the test has reading comp, teach them how to comprehend what they read...

If NCLB doesn't allow the teacher to teach algebra effectively, because the books and methods have been standardized, then NCLB needs to be amended. I'm not against kids learning the materials and being tested, but don't limit the teachers' methods for teaching and their materials.

If you were the manager of a McDonald's would you let the new workers figure out what the best way to cook the burgers is or would you smack them upside the head with a manual and make them memorize it? It's oversimplification, of course, but it's true for anything where you have federal accountability.

A teacher may THINK they have some splendid new way to teach trigonometry so that every kid can get it, but then, oops, they were wrong and now a couple hundred kids head off to college with substandard math skills. And because we have no standardized tests, there's no way to know this is happening until a decade later when a generation of kids is entering the workforce unprepared. The blame will be shifted to the principal and then the superintendent and then on up the chain to some politician who is going to feel the heat for it. What's he gonna say, "Don't limit the teachers' methods for teaching and their materials."? Are you going to buy that as a parent if one of those kids was yours?

So where do you live where this can happen. Not in NY. Teacher have to submit their curriculum in advance. If they are going to divine the rules of math by augury then it's going to get noticed. Maybe your state is different, or maybe you don't know how things actually work. Your :roll: in reply to Isla suggests that much is true.

I live in California. Maybe it's just that I was a student recently and have some actual experiences with these hippy-ass slacker teachers.

I passed a Spanish class where we learned about a dozen words and mostly listened to the teacher sing and tell us stories......in English. An English teacher there did NOTHING in any class except show movies. Yeah, REAL dedicated to our children's future. Most teachers I knew were teaching for any number of ignoble reasons. Some like feeling superior, some did it because they needed a job, some did it because they felt passionatly about the subject matter, some did it because of the security or pay or lack of competition, and, ya, some did it because they like kids......but assuming that all or most of them do is......silly, to put it nicely.

Feel passionatly about that children are the future? :roll: So they aren't trying to be Peter Pan, they're actually trying to be the Jesus figure saving the woeful children from themselves. Splendid. I'm sure it's been working fantastically with our scores consistently dropping. :roll: Hey, I've got an idea. Since it's a child's parents who have the greatest impact on their kids future, why don't we work towards strengthening marriage and family values and individual morality to give kids better homes? Oh, I forgot, the teachers are the designated catchers in the rye. Pardon me.

I have a substitute credential, took the CBEST and Praxis and SSAT, and actually started classes for my teaching credential. I knew others becoming teachers and some who went on to be teachers. You know what, our children's future was the last thing on anybody's mind. It's not the job of a teacher to be a kid's savior....you're there to help them learn whatever subject you're teaching. You're a bit player in their life who's presence they tolerate and you'll hardly have time to garner any personal credibility before they're long gone.

FWIW, I dropped out of the courses when I realized I'd have to teach in the same structured format I've defended above. I didn't want to have to make kids read X number of books. I wanted to experiment with formats and have an enjoyable time and try to unlock the beauty of literature and composition. But that's just not the job description and anybody who went through with the training and education knew that.

Well, I am sorry you have this experience. My wife is a college professor. My sister in law is a teacher. I have many relatives and friends who teach at all levels of education, and every one without exception bust their ass trying to do a good job because they do in fact give a good crap. Their chief problem isn't the District, the State, or the NEA. It's the apathy and lack of respect they get from parents and students. People telling them how overpaid they are (they aren't) and how easy their job is, and how they owe their students a passing grade. It sucks to be them, and I have no idea why they do it. Reading the posts here, you couldn't pay me enough to get so little respect, but my wife has this silly notion that helping someone who is willing to learn is a worthwhile contribution with its own reward.

 

[HeroOfPellinor]

Originally posted by: WinstonSmith

Well, I am sorry you have this experience. My wife is a college professor. My sister in law is a teacher. I have many relatives and friends who teach at all levels of education, and every one without exception bust their ass trying to do a good job because they do in fact give a good crap. Their chief problem isn't the District, the State, or the NEA. It's the apathy and lack of respect they get from parents and students. People telling them how overpaid they are (they aren't) and how easy their job is, and how they owe their students a passing grade. It sucks to be them, and I have no idea why they do it. Reading the posts here, you couldn't pay me enough to get so little respect, but my wife has this silly notion that helping someone who is willing to learn is a worthwhile contribution with its own reward.

College is different. If you're in college, you're there because you want to be. You're forced to go to high school. Teaching adults who are there because they want to be is quite a tick different than teaching teenagers who begrudgingly go to your class.

Caring about kids at the elementary level is a given. Who's going to stand up infront of a bunch of doe-eyed toe-heads and not earnestly wish them bright futures. There's no nobility there. In fact, if you didn't care, you'd probably possess a societal disorder of some kind and should actually be locked up or sent to Newfoundland. And I'm sure standards aren't too tough to meet in elementary school when your homework is gluing together two pieces of felt paper.

High school. High School is the Fallujah of the education system.