Why my Mom thinks "No child left behind" is a bad idea.

[CADsortaGUY]

Originally posted by: WinstonSmith
Many of the teachers I know don't like how standardized testing is going because more and more time goes to teaching to pass the tests. The tests are "one size fits all". They would much rather have more time to meet the needs of a particular student.

Oh teh noesss. They have to actually teach what they need to learn? Tests are to make sure kids are learning what they are being taught. This whole "teaching the test" is BS. Only a lazy teacher would do such a thing. I don't see why kids would have a problem with standardized tests if teachers curriculum were up to snuff and they taught well.

Winston - so do these teachers you know - do they ignore those kids who learn the subject matter quickly? I had two teachers that were this way early in my schooling(and then many in the later grades). It pissed me off to no end. While they were great with helping those who had trouble with the subject matter -they totally ignored those who wanted to keep going. This may be a bit OT but it's the biggest problem with our system IMO. While "outcome based education" has become a dirty word among the NEA crowd - It is the only system that takes ALL students needs into account.

Meh - Too much to say right now... Maybe someday

CsG

 

[CADsortaGUY]

Originally posted by: polm

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY

Originally posted by: polm

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY

Special needs should not be part of the "standard" test. However - far too many kids are dubbed "special needs" and thus fall through the cracks and are then STUCK in special needs. There needs to be a better course of action for those who need specific help, rather than stick them in the "special needs" wing.

And before you go any further with this line of questioning - you best understand the system. My sister in law is downs syndrome - and she was in the "special needs" area(duh), but there were perfectly functional kids who were sitting right along side of her. Those kids were left behind by our system and it disgusts me.

CsG

Well, at least we agree that the N.C.L.B program is flawed and needs some serious attention .

No, we don't agree. The legislation doesn't need as much changing as the school system does. Our school system is the one that needs "serious attention".

CsG

so N.C.L.B doesn't have any problems/flaws ?

Oh, I see, they are just not "serious" .

I didn't say that.

Yes, not as "serious" as the problems with our school system.

CsG

 

[Dissipate]

I think your mom needs to quit her job and get off the taxpayer dole. Who cares about the "No Child Left Behind Act." The truth of the matter is your mother is participating in a government racket of epic proportions.

 

[Vic]

My father and his wife are both retired school teachers/administrators with well over 30 years experience each, and they both think NCLB is a terrible idea/law, and they are both glad that they don't have to teach in this modern environment. Basically, teaching children is a type of science, with techniques and practices that have been developed over the past 200 years, and lawmakers in Washington have taken over education from the teaching experts and made it into nothing but standardized testing. The imagination and creativity of the children is no longer encouraged, just get a high score on a multiple choice test. As a single poor-performing student in a class can drag down the teacher's entire rating, the educations of gifted kids who want to learn are sacrificed for the stupid unruly kids who don't/can't want to learn.

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY
My Mom also taught - she doesn't see a problem with testing kids like this. Infact I've recently talked with a few of my old teachers and they don't seem to have a problem with it either. But I guess they were pretty good teachers...

CsG

Right... so any teacher who disagrees with NCLB is a lousy teacher, right? :roll:
But wait... you insult everyone who dares to disagree with your personal agenda of the day (I thought of posting "du jour" but thought you might recoil from the use of the evil French language). Pretty sad, CAD. You've pretty much slipped from someone I could respect into nothing but partisan fanboi bullsh!t.

 

[polm]

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY

I didn't say that.

Yes, not as "serious" as the problems with our school system.

CsG

and throwing a MILDLY flawed solution at at TERRIBLY flawed problem will get us nowhere.

The government must continue to mold and adapt the N.C.L.B to meet the problems, however mild you may see them, that continue to rise.

 

[Tarpon6]

Originally posted by: polm

Originally posted by: Tarpon6
No one likes accountability. We need accountability when it comes to education. Too many kids are being passed along without knowing squat. They fail, yet they move on. Parents throw a fit when little Johnny gets held back, even though he's in 3rd grade and can't read. NCLB might not be perfect, but it's something. At least if you can pass the test you know how to read and do some math. When the parents cry and the teachers just pass them on, who is left to help the child get an education?

I went to a city public school in the 80's. We had two things, discipline, and parents who made school a priority. We didn't have new books or computers. Having a child in the 6th grade I see parents who make excuses and blame the teachers / school for their childs problems and lack of discipline. Mostly it's their own fault. They sure don't want little Johnny paddled, and Johnny sees mom and dad stick up for him and blame the teacher no matter what he does. When a child acts up they get their "card flipped". Ohhhhhhhh noooooooo! My card got flipped! LMAO. When I was in school your ass got flipped. It worked. I was paddled twice, once in 10th grade. lol Let me tell you there was no talking during class or back talking teachers or any B.S. It might be strict but we got an education. I didn't know ANYONE in my school who could not read.

N.C.L.B has nothing to do with punishment or discipline.

That's why the discipline was separate paragraph that didn't mention NCLB. NCLB is not enought, but at least it is something. Before that we had nothing. Everyone just wants to throw money at it. We've already done that.. Doesn't work. Please address paragraph 1.

 

[Infohawk]

Originally posted by: Dissipate
I think your mom needs to quit her job and get off the taxpayer dole. Who cares about the "No Child Left Behind Act." The truth of the matter is your mother is participating in a government racket of epic proportions.

P&N, where people will insult your mom.

First Ckg suggested she might not be a good teacher like his teachers that support NCLB and now this...

 

[CADsortaGUY]

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY
My Mom also taught - she doesn't see a problem with testing kids like this. Infact I've recently talked with a few of my old teachers and they don't seem to have a problem with it either. But I guess they were pretty good teachers...

CsG

Right... so any teacher who disagrees with NCLB is a lousy teacher, right? :roll:
But wait... you insult everyone who dares to disagree with your personal agenda of the day (I thought of posting "du jour" but thought you might recoil from the use of the evil French language). Pretty sad, CAD. You've pretty much slipped from someone I could respect into nothing but partisan fanboi bullsh!t.

I did not say that, but continue thinking I did if you wish...

CsG

 

[polm]

Originally posted by: Tarpon6
That's why the discipline was separate paragraph that didn't mention NCLB. NCLB is not enought, but at least it is something. Before that we had nothing. Everyone just wants to throw money at it. We've already done that.. Doesn't work.

sorry, but I don't like to see just ANY solution thrown at a problem. We can't just try things out on our kids ! We have to iron out the problems BEFORE implementation.

 

[ajf3]

I agree that there should be standards and goals, but telling teachers that they will forfeit Raises, Bonuses, and even their Job for not performing up to standard on 1 test is just rediculous.

Oh, so teaching is different than every other profession on the face of the earth? Teachers will come up with all sorts of explinations on why they shouldn't be objectively judged - this is because they've had free reign forever due to the teachers unions (here in PA anyway).

I'm not saying that there aren't good, dedicated teachers out there - I'm only saying that there are many who don't give a sh!t - and there hasn't been any incentive for them to change, until now.

 

[Tarpon6]

:thumbsup:

Originally posted by: Red Dawn
When more parents take active roles in their childrens education then the system will work. Until then no special program or plan devised by anybody will work.

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: Dissipate
I think your mom needs to quit her job and get off the taxpayer dole. Who cares about the "No Child Left Behind Act." The truth of the matter is your mother is participating in a government racket of epic proportions.

:roll:
Welfare is the taxpayer dole. Corporate subsidies are the taxpayer dole. Public education is necessary to ensure an informed, educated electorate, and is crucial to the stability of any representative form of government.

 

[SP33Demon]

My g/f teaches in an urban environment, and completely agrees. She used to call me last year crying about how sucky this NCLB standard was, and how it's destroying her desire to even teach at all. She said the fact that 90% of her class are minorities, and a quarter of them are on a 3rd or 4th grade reading level (she teaches 8th) makes it virtually impossible for her to get them up to speed. She said the NCLB act doesn't account for kids who are way behind academically, and they need to be taught at a different pace, even though they are competent enough to pass their respective grade. Also, the creativity was a problem as well, she said that the new books they made her use were not effective, so badly that she actually used her old books (breaking the rules).

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY
My Mom also taught - she doesn't see a problem with testing kids like this. Infact I've recently talked with a few of my old teachers and they don't seem to have a problem with it either. But I guess they were pretty good teachers...

CsG

Right... so any teacher who disagrees with NCLB is a lousy teacher, right? :roll:
But wait... you insult everyone who dares to disagree with your personal agenda of the day (I thought of posting "du jour" but thought you might recoil from the use of the evil French language). Pretty sad, CAD. You've pretty much slipped from someone I could respect into nothing but partisan fanboi bullsh!t.

I did not say that, but continue thinking I did if you wish...

CsG

I wouldn't even called that an implied insult it's so obvious. Thanks for proving my case.

 

[nageov3t]

Originally posted by: ajf3

I agree that there should be standards and goals, but telling teachers that they will forfeit Raises, Bonuses, and even their Job for not performing up to standard on 1 test is just rediculous.

Oh, so teaching is different than every other profession on the face of the earth?

it sorta is.

even the best teacher can't teach well if her students are apathetic, lazy, and stupid.

 

[Tarpon6]

Originally posted by: polm

Originally posted by: Tarpon6
That's why the discipline was separate paragraph that didn't mention NCLB. NCLB is not enought, but at least it is something. Before that we had nothing. Everyone just wants to throw money at it. We've already done that.. Doesn't work.

sorry, but I don't like to see just ANY solution thrown at a problem. We can't just try things out on our kids ! We have to iron out the problems BEFORE implementation.

And the main problem is lack of discipline and parents. Lets iron out those two problems. See how it comes around full circle? Until someone gets the guts to do the first two , at least we can ensure the kids learn something.

Lets face the only classes that really need to teach to the test are where the kids are not doing so well. The advanced classes can teach way beyond the test, and they do, Don't forget I have a child in the 6th grade who has been through the tests. They are SO EASY it's unreal. If you can't pass them you should not be moving on.

 

[Infohawk]

Originally posted by: Vic

I wouldn't even called that an implied insult it's so obvious. Thanks for proving my case.

Yup, I'm glad someone picked up on that. It was indeed pretty obvious. There are no real other meanings that sentence could have taken on except to bash the OP's mother.

 

[polm]

Originally posted by: Tarpon6

Originally posted by: polm

Originally posted by: Tarpon6
That's why the discipline was separate paragraph that didn't mention NCLB. NCLB is not enought, but at least it is something. Before that we had nothing. Everyone just wants to throw money at it. We've already done that.. Doesn't work.

sorry, but I don't like to see just ANY solution thrown at a problem. We can't just try things out on our kids ! We have to iron out the problems BEFORE implementation.

And the main problem is lack of discipline and parents. Lets iron out those two problems. See how it comes around full circle? Until someone gets the guts to do the first two , at least we can ensure the kids learn something.

unfortunatley, N.C.L.B. doesn't ensure this any more than before N.C.L.B. You can punish teachers all you want, but it still won't guarantee the kids will learn.

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: ajf3

I agree that there should be standards and goals, but telling teachers that they will forfeit Raises, Bonuses, and even their Job for not performing up to standard on 1 test is just rediculous.

Oh, so teaching is different than every other profession on the face of the earth? Teachers will come up with all sorts of explinations on why they shouldn't be objectively judged - this is because they've had free reign forever due to the teachers unions (here in PA anyway).

I'm not saying that there aren't good, dedicated teachers out there - I'm only saying that there are many who don't give a sh!t - and there hasn't been any incentive for them to change, until now.

You people are clueless.

It's sounds great to say that teachers need to be held accountable just like in every other profession, but you completely miss just how NCLB holds them accountable. If a teacher volunteers to teach a tough class at a tough school, say at an inner-city school full of poor children (who are generally underperfomers and the schools are usually underfunded), they will be punished for it under NCLB. If, however, a teacher chooses a cake assignment at a wealthy school full of overperforming children, under NCLB they will be rewarded for it.
In essense, NCLB widens the already existing funding gap between rich and poor schools, and blames teachers for situations frequently beyond their control.

 

[CADsortaGUY]

Originally posted by: polm

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY

I didn't say that.

Yes, not as "serious" as the problems with our school system.

CsG

and throwing a MILDLY flawed solution at at TERRIBLY flawed problem will get us nowhere.

The government must continue to mold and adapt the N.C.L.B to meet the problems, however mild you may see them, that continue to rise.

Wrong - it will get us somewhere. It'll get us to the point where we know how many 3rd Grade kids can read. We will also know where kids are at different stages - due to standardized testing. As it sits now - we have no clue because there aren't any system wide standard. Sure - your state may have something - and some other state may have something - but do they mesh? I moved in 2nd grade. The class I joined hadn't started "writing"(in cursive) but we had already passed that point in the class I left. The class I left hadn't started multiplication yet but the class I joined had already started.

I'm willing to bet that the same type of thing held true in their respective 3rd grades too(the difference in curriculum).

So yes, while the gov't must adapt the legislation when needed - the system is the one that needs to see the most change. Right now it is still "brand new" as you said - so for you or others to call it a failure is premature. The teachers may have a valid concern in some cases but as I said - it sounds like selfish whining at this point. This "but the kids are too dumb" to pass is silly.

CsG

 

[CADsortaGUY]

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY
My Mom also taught - she doesn't see a problem with testing kids like this. Infact I've recently talked with a few of my old teachers and they don't seem to have a problem with it either. But I guess they were pretty good teachers...

CsG

Right... so any teacher who disagrees with NCLB is a lousy teacher, right? :roll:
But wait... you insult everyone who dares to disagree with your personal agenda of the day (I thought of posting "du jour" but thought you might recoil from the use of the evil French language). Pretty sad, CAD. You've pretty much slipped from someone I could respect into nothing but partisan fanboi bullsh!t.

I did not say that, but continue thinking I did if you wish...

CsG

I wouldn't even called that an implied insult it's so obvious. Thanks for proving my case.

:roll: ofcourse you assume instead of think. These teacher I spoke of are good. I believe that they would not be negatively affected because they are THAT good. They challenged everyone(from the slowest to the fastest) and everyone seemed to not only have fun - but <gasp> they actually LEARNED.

But hey - you can think what you wish...

CsG

 

[polm]

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY

Originally posted by: polm

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY

I didn't say that.

Yes, not as "serious" as the problems with our school system.

CsG

and throwing a MILDLY flawed solution at at TERRIBLY flawed problem will get us nowhere.

The government must continue to mold and adapt the N.C.L.B to meet the problems, however mild you may see them, that continue to rise.

Wrong - it will get us somewhere. It'll get us to the point where we know how many 3rd Grade kids can read. We will also know where kids are at different stages - due to standardized testing. As it sits now - we have no clue because there aren't any system wide standard. Sure - your state may have something - and some other state may have something - but do they mesh? I moved in 2nd grade. The class I joined hadn't started "writing"(in cursive) but we had already passed that point in the class I left. The class I left hadn't started multiplication yet but the class I joined had already started.

I'm willing to bet that the same type of thing held true in their respective 3rd grades too(the difference in curriculum).

So yes, while the gov't must adapt the legislation when needed - the system is the one that needs to see the most change. Right now it is still "brand new" as you said - so for you or others to call it a failure is premature. The teachers may have a valid concern in some cases but as I said - it sounds like selfish whining at this point. This "but the kids are too dumb" to pass is silly.

CsG

great, I agree with you that the system is flawed, and you agree with me that the legislation is flawed.

Now lets get to work trying to fix them both !

 

[Mathlete]

Originally posted by: Dissipate
I think your mom needs to quit her job and get off the taxpayer dole. Who cares about the "No Child Left Behind Act." The truth of the matter is your mother is participating in a government racket of epic proportions.

Hmmmmm Where to start??? Oh yeah.... STFU Dude, STFU.

NOw lets get back to the topic at hand. To start I 'll will give you my story. I am a 27 year-old school teacher. The good thing is that I teach at a private school so NCLB is not much of a concern for me. But there are some issues that I have with the law.

FIRST. It is teaching to a test. Now, this wouldn't be such a bad idea if the test covered a wide variety of topics but it is very narrow. So before I went into my unit on fractions and guitar strings and intervals and had the kids spend time using an osciliscope and guitar tuner and found the intervals(perfect fouth, major second) that different fractions made on the string I would have to ask myself, "Is this going to be on the test?" It won't so does that mean it's not important?

SECOND. After the school takes the test(s) they are disegragated. This means that they arte separated by age, color, economic status, sex, and so on. If one of those "groups" doesn't perform to a preset level the school is placed under watch. If the school does not make the necessaery improvements on their scores they have provide free transportation to the schools that do meet the states standards. Thus decreasing the size of the school, thus decreasing funding, thus decreasing the probability that the school will fail.

FINALLY. An underlying idea in NCLB is that they want to bring everyone up above the 50th percentile. THIS IS IMPOSSIBLE. The fact that people are below this mark is what makes it the 50th percentile.

When will the government learn, you can have the greatest teachers in the world but YOU CANT LEGISLATE PERFORMANCE.

It's like making it illegal for US Basketball to lose in the olympics.

 

[JustAnAverageGuy]

Interesting. I needed a topic for an imagination essay. Think I found it

 

[polm]

Originally posted by: JustAnAverageGuy
Interesting. I needed a topic for an imagination essay. Think I found it

I have no idea what you are trying to say.