Kill them...no. Kick them out of the country if they express any extremist tendencies....absolutely. The crap they are allowed to spew in London is unbelievable. Freedom of Spech is great, until someone is using it to recruit an army in your backyard.
XMan
Lifer
- Oct 9, 1999
- 12,513
- 49
- 91
He may have no credentials to report on the Islamic word, but Ayaan Hirsi Ali does. You should read her book, it's rather enlightening.
Then, as we walked away, the other girl shouted after me, "Kintirleey!" Sanyar winced. I looked at her, horror dawning on me. I was like that other girl? I, too, had that filthy thing, a kintir? In Somalia, like many countries across Africa and the Middle East, little girls are made "pure" by having their genitals cut out. There is no other way to describe this procedure, which typically occurs around the age of five.
After the child's clitoris and labia are carved out, scraped off, or, in more compassionate areas, merely cut or pricked, the whole area is often sewn up, so that a thick band of tissue forms a chastity belt made of the girl's own scarred flesh. A small hole is situated to permit a thin flow of pee. Only great force can tear the scar tissue wider, for sex.
Female genital mutilation predates Islam. Not all Muslims do this, and a few of the peoples who do are not Islamic. But in Somalia, where virtually every girl is excised, the practice is always justified in the name of Islam. Uncircumcised girls will be possessed by devils, fall into vice and perdition, and become whores. Imams never discourage the practice: it keeps girls pure.
. . .
Then the scissors went down between my legs and the man cut off my inner labia and clitoris. I heard it, like a butcher snipping the fat off a piece of meat. A piercing pain shot up between my legs, indescribable, and I howled. Then came the sewing: the long, blunt needle clumsily pushed into my bleeding outer labia, my loud and anguished protests, Grandma's words of comfort and encouragement. "It's just this once in your life, Ayaan. Be brave, he's almost finished." When the sewing was finished, the man cut the thread off with his teeth. That is all I can recall of it. But I do remember Haweya's bloodcurdling howls. Though she was the youngest - she was four, I five, Mahad six - Haweya must have struggled much more than Mahad and I did, or perhaps the women were exhausted after fighting us, and slipped, because the man made some bad cuts on Haweya's thighs. She carried the scars of them her whole life.
Excerpt
Amazon Link
You're wrong. The leadership of many Middle Eastern Muslim countries is full of hardliner extremists, but among the younger generation, America is, if not quite popular, then at least not the focus of rage it is with their leadership. The average Iranian has no wish to see Western civilization harmed, much less dead...they actually LIKE America, if not all of our policies in their part of the world.
But the way you're talking about "dealing" with "Islam" is playing right into the fanatics hands. They can't hold onto their power forever, they are way too extremist for the next generation in the Middle East, but as long as we talk about all of Islam like it's a disease that must be wiped from the planet, it's pretty hard to keep the moderates on our side. A big reason Osama bin Laden and people like him are able to recruit followers at all is that they make the case that the West is at war against Islam, it's pretty hard to stop that type of propaganda if it's actually true.
You want to know how we best protect Western civilization? By having more friends and fewer enemies. Some of those enemies must simply be dealt with, but your wacko approach to the problem, an approach shared by a disturbingly large number of Americans, is going to turn Muslim moderates into enemies when they could have been our friends. No matter how much people might like it, we're not going to wipe out Islam...so if there is ever to be peace, we need the moderate Muslims to be the loudest voice of their religion. And people like you are making that FAR more difficult, if not impossible.
You hear that everyone! Freedom of speech and religion is okay unless you express views that are "extremist". Don't worry. This cannot possibly be abused.
In addition, while butter is right that in Islam religion and politics are combined in marked contrast to Christianity, to accord a specific level of threat and craziness. Of course lets not let reality get in the face of our stereotypes. Did you know that secular communist group was responsible for half of the worldwide suicide bombings up through 2000? Yeap, atheists were blowing themselves up in far larger numbers then any other group worldwide. Does this suggest to you that it may be a factor other then their religion that is causing this sort of activity? Secular regimes, christian regimes, etc. act in similar rabble rousing ways consistently and yet now islam is somehow the problem here.
To pin a movement such as this on religious pretexts seems exceedingly unlikely considering well..... all historical precedent of mankind. There is ALWAYS a secular reason, in the here and now that groups like this actually have to sustain their movements. The crusades weren't about jesus, and the 'white man's burden' wasn't put out there because we wanted to save the pagans from themselves. Learn more about this stuff and you'll see that islam is not the source, but a tool... and so fighting that means nothing.
In addition, while butter is right that in Islam religion and politics are combined in marked contrast to Christianity, to accord a specific level of threat and craziness. Of course lets not let reality get in the face of our stereotypes. Did you know that secular communist group was responsible for half of the worldwide suicide bombings up through 2000? Yeap, atheists were blowing themselves up in far larger numbers then any other group worldwide. Does this suggest to you that it may be a factor other then their religion that is causing this sort of activity? Secular regimes, christian regimes, etc. act in similar rabble rousing ways consistently and yet now islam is somehow the problem here.
To pin a movement such as this on religious pretexts seems exceedingly unlikely considering well..... all historical precedent of mankind. There is ALWAYS a secular reason, in the here and now that groups like this actually have to sustain their movements. The crusades weren't about jesus, and the 'white man's burden' wasn't put out there because we wanted to save the pagans from themselves. Learn more about this stuff and you'll see that islam is not the source, but a tool... and so fighting that means nothing.
- Aug 23, 2003
- 25,375
- 142
- 116
I appreciate you quoting it completely, and in context.
Female genital mutilation is a horrible practice, widespread in Somalia but rare and generally abhorred in the rest of the Muslim world.
Various African groups practice different forms of self-mutilation, including but not limited to genital mutilation. As he stated, it predates Islam; the fact that these people were converted to Islam does not mean Islam was the source (and this of course makes sense, as I previously pointed out, because this practice is basically non-existent in other Islamic populations).
XMan
Lifer
- Oct 9, 1999
- 12,513
- 49
- 91
Ayaan is a lady, she's writing from personal experience. Like I said, pick up her book. She has a lot more to say about Islam than just genital mutilation - enough that she's gotten death threats and travels throughout the US with bodyguards.
<a target=_blank class=ftalternatingbarlinklarge href="http://pittsburghlive.com/x/pittsburghtrib/news/rss/print_503977.html">Imam Fouad ElBayly, president of the Johnstown Islamic Center, was among those who objected to Hirsi Ali's appearance.
"She has been identified as one who has defamed the faith. If you come into the faith, you must abide by the laws, and when you decide to defame it deliberately, the sentence is death," said ElBayly, who came to the U.S. from Egypt in 1976.
</a>
Exactly right, retorts AHA; that?s what the Koran says. The man?s just following his religion. The takeaway: ?This imam has been strikingly honest.?
You serve in the military which is scary.
I suggest you rethink your opinion of Muslims because if you are surrounded by them I don't see what the hell is stopping you from doing something barbaric if you think the way you do about them.
If anyone with a gun is put in a situation where they view everyone around them as animals, that will usually result in the person with the gun acting in a criminal manner.
I suggest you rethink your opinion of Muslims because if you are surrounded by them I don't see what the hell is stopping you from doing something barbaric if you think the way you do about them.
If anyone with a gun is put in a situation where they view everyone around them as animals, that will usually result in the person with the gun acting in a criminal manner.
If Iranians hate us so much then why did thousands of them gather and pray for victims of 9/11 soon after the attacks?
- Jan 31, 2005
- 9,454
- 0
- 0
Not up on current events are you? Like the fact Iran has repeatedly and often said it will retaliate, it will strike back etc etc etc.
By the way, I noticed you avoided my questions for you.
What religion are you?
Whos side are you on?
I bet I can guess.......
I've been slowly watching this thread and just felt out like point out some inconsistencies.
People in Syria, Palestine, Eygpt, Mid East, etc. etc. do NOT want "Western Civilization" dead, and this is PURE FUD that you are spreaindg - especially considering that for most of history the devleopment of many socities that we would label "Western" or "Non Western" (Ie: Middle Eastern) are piggy backed and relied on eachother.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/6592759.stm
They CLEARLY do not "hate" the freedoms we have here, and want the "Death" of our civilization...all these are bigoted, misinformed opinions that I doubt MANY here will NEVER stop spreading
People in Syria, Palestine, Eygpt, Mid East, etc. etc. do NOT want "Western Civilization" dead, and this is PURE FUD that you are spreaindg - especially considering that for most of history the devleopment of many socities that we would label "Western" or "Non Western" (Ie: Middle Eastern) are piggy backed and relied on eachother.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/6592759.stm
They CLEARLY do not "hate" the freedoms we have here, and want the "Death" of our civilization...all these are bigoted, misinformed opinions that I doubt MANY here will NEVER stop spreading
XMan
Lifer
- Oct 9, 1999
- 12,513
- 49
- 91
It's not FUD. It's the Koran. You should give it a read, along with a few other books - The Satanic Verses, by Rushdie, Infidel, by Hirsi Ali, and Reading Lolita in Teheran, by Nafisi.
Surah 9:5: "Then, when the sacred months have passed, slay the idolaters wherever ye find them, and take them (captive), and besiege them, and prepare for them each ambush. But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor-due, then leave their way free. Lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful."
Surah 9:29: "Fight against such of those who have been given the Scripture as believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, and forbid not that which Allah hath forbidden by His messenger, and follow not the Religion of Truth, until they pay the tribute [jizya tax] readily, being brought low."
Is that to say all people in those nations believe that way? No, just those who are devout in their beliefs and haven't been secularized.
It's surpising to me, most especially after reading Infidel, that more "progressives" don't come to realize what a threat Wahabbist Islam is to the very concept of women's rights and feminism.
the guy you quoted is a Muslim who follows all the rules of Islam.
& the things you posted are taken way out of context to prove a false message.
The Quran clearly states no women and children shall ever be harmed. The only people to ever be harmed are those with arms.
All the passages that talk about fighting non-Muslims are during a holy war where an invading force is trying to attack the people because they are Muslims.
Wow, news flash. Stupid extreme things are located in religious texts that are over 1000 years old. Thanks for letting me know.
The entire book of Leviticus is full of retarded and insane things, like not being allowed to touch menstruating women, or that eating shellfish is an abomination before the lord, killing people who work on the sabbath, etc... etc. I'm not afraid of a bunch of even the most fundamentalist crazy christians invading my work and chopping my head off if I have to go in on Sunday. Why? Because all religious texts have stupid crap in them. People who believe in that stuff have long ignored the more absurd things in their sacred books.
The entire book of Leviticus is full of retarded and insane things, like not being allowed to touch menstruating women, or that eating shellfish is an abomination before the lord, killing people who work on the sabbath, etc... etc. I'm not afraid of a bunch of even the most fundamentalist crazy christians invading my work and chopping my head off if I have to go in on Sunday. Why? Because all religious texts have stupid crap in them. People who believe in that stuff have long ignored the more absurd things in their sacred books.
XMan
Lifer
- Oct 9, 1999
- 12,513
- 49
- 91
The Koran states a woman is never to be harmed - unless she isn't a "field" open to her husband as he wills. If then, she is to be scourged. Look it up.
The difference between Islam and Christianity is that there has been a reformation of Christianity under Jesus Christ. The principles that Christ espoused are nothing like the teachings of Mohammed. Love your neighbor as yourself. Love the Lord your God.
Leviticus is a book of laws for a nation of former slaves who were living on their own for the first time in a strange land. Taken in that context it's easy to understand why it's so detailed in its requirements. The Israelites were essentially children (insofar as their worldiness, and not to mention their stubborness) on an extended camping trip.
You could say I'm taking the Koran out of context - but the same Surahs I've quoted have been used to justify jihad and the subjugation of women.
Xman , its fud and I've posted many responses those "Verses" - I can remember 9:29 distinctly. I will stand by them as the verses that they are in the Quran...I'm not going to say something soft such as "oh they are transsslatedd wrong" or "but islam is peaceful BLA BLA". Although, there are MANY cases where the translations are SPECIFICALLY tweaked to imply something entirely different.
Read the beginning and the end of where the vereses are found in context - and then read a little of the history behind the events that led to the issueing of those verses (Which again must exist IN CONTEXT). Then it is clear what the verses are talking about.
Reminds me about a verse someone complained about a verse which said to "cut off the arms and legs of teh ebil ppl" as proof that Islam was evil and that verse itself was the reason why we have beheadings because the Quran sanctions it.
True, that is what it is says in the Arabic - but to read it literally is a mistake because that is an arabic "phrase" which means to elmiinate their power --> when they have no power it is as if they hands and legs are cut off. No sane person with arabic trainig (or even access to a copy of translation and paraphrase of the Quran...a translation alone does not necessarily convey that information) would read it that way.
And Aimster- I'm pretty sure I don't follow all the rules of Islam so don't say that
This thread seems to be a demonstration of psychological projection.
A few American right wingers with very limited knowledge of other cultures, project their fear and violent inner thoughts on entire continents and religions of people.
Like I have repeated many times, the end of the Cold War was traumatic for many people. With no easy to recognize, massive, external threat, one had to be invented. Saying that radical Islamists and their militant followers are a threat is too confusing, and not quite desperate sounding enough, so the entire religion of Islam has to be painted as the new dire imminent threat.
A few American right wingers with very limited knowledge of other cultures, project their fear and violent inner thoughts on entire continents and religions of people.
Like I have repeated many times, the end of the Cold War was traumatic for many people. With no easy to recognize, massive, external threat, one had to be invented. Saying that radical Islamists and their militant followers are a threat is too confusing, and not quite desperate sounding enough, so the entire religion of Islam has to be painted as the new dire imminent threat.
Here I agree with you entirely Xman.
That is why we need to tell Muslims to remind them the first thing Surah that God revealed to Mohammed - that humans need to gain and obtain knowledge through reading and writing. Because when people have knowledge, then you do not have the Quran taken out of context like this because people are too smart to believe something so stupid.
You're a bit off target. Islam is not a new threat by any means, and today's fear of Muslims goes back many centuries. There has always been a distrust of Muslims in the West, with both sides being a thorn in the other's side countless times throughout history. Before the Cold War ended the fear of Islam was strong. In the late seventies a TV ad ran to scare us of our foreign dependence on oil. It showed pictures of various Muslim leaders without even labelling them by name (most Americans wouldn't be able to name them). That kind of assumed guilt is nothing new, and 9/11 just opened old wounds.
TRENDING THREADS
-
Discussion Zen 5 Speculation (EPYC Turin and Strix Point/Granite Ridge - Ryzen 9000)- Started by DisEnchantment
- Replies: 20K
-
Discussion Intel current and future Lakes & Rapids thread- Started by TheF34RChannel
- Replies: 23K
-
Discussion Intel Meteor, Arrow, Lunar & Panther Lakes Discussion Threads
- Started by Tigerick
- Replies: 13K
-
-
Facebook
Twitter