Why is the Ford-Edsel 390 so weak?

[exdeath]

I like how dealers back in the day sold performance parts/experimented with them like Tasca at Rhode Island, Yenko, and Norm and so forth.

No one really does that now because of "teh warranty," and it's kind of a shame.

Hrmm, SVT and FRPP, Mopar SRT-4 "stages", TRD upgrades including superchargers for many cars, etc. All with warranties.

You can still buy a "Cammer" engine direct from Ford based on a 5.0L version of the 4.6 modular.

 

[TehMac]

Yea fair point, especially with FRPP, but I guess my point is that dealerships don't install their own engines, they don't actually have off the shelf parts hanging around their dealership, like Tasca did (how he built the CJ 428 for example).

Idk, just a thought.

 

[Demon-Xanth]

One reason they don't too is emissions laws aren't what they used to be. They used to be non existent.

 

[exdeath]

One reason they don't too is emissions laws aren't what they used to be. They used to be non existent.

Now days emissions = efficiency = peak potential, so it's a non issue. You aren't making great power if your dump raw fuel out the exhaust or are misfiring. On a modern EFI engine, great performance and clean emissions come hand in hand. When you tune an engine by leaning out the over rich factory safe tuning or increase the power of a given engine, you are increasing it's efficiency as well.

That is until emissions stops being about unwanted contaminants and impurities and clean pure combustion, but simply volume of H2O and CO2 emitted... but at that point it stops being about regulating emissions and more about regulating wealth and what people can freely spend their money on. Might as well impose child limits as well, after all it's no fair that a family of 5 is allowed to spend money feeding more people and putting out more CO2 than a single person household. But I digress...

 

[Demon-Xanth]

Yes, but dealers can't afford to deal with the CARB much less be at odds with them.

 

[Iron Woode]

I like how dealers back in the day sold performance parts/experimented with them like Tasca at Rhode Island, Yenko, and Norm and so forth.

No one really does that now because of "teh warranty," and it's kind of a shame.

you should read up on what Chrysler was doing back in 1962-64.

you could order a complete aluminum front end for your SS Dodge or Plymouth from the parts guy and put it on and it was considered factory installed equipment.

combine that with a 413 stage IV Max Wedge (420 HP) and do some serious drag racing.

:awe:

 

[TehMac]

So is it possible to get a 302 V8 to rev to around 8k RPMs no problems? I guess you could install reforged connector rods and piston heads, but could you achieve this by boring out the 302 and destroking it at the same time?

 

[Demon-Xanth]

With enough money and enough parts replacement, sure. NASCAR had their engines running over 10kRPM before the gear rule. The Chevy 302 could do 7500RPM in 1968. (though the official redline was 6000). Hell, my brother in law had a 377 that he took to 7500. I'm sure the Ford guys can pull similar numbers at the very least.

 

[TehMac]

I wonder if it would actually sound legitimate though. The M3 4L V8 sounds amazing at 8k rpm, but it's a high compression low displacement V8.

 

[Pacfanweb]

So is it possible to get a 302 V8 to rev to around 8k RPMs no problems? I guess you could install reforged connector rods and piston heads, but could you achieve this by boring out the 302 and destroking it at the same time?

There are plenty of heavy-duty parts available these days to spin a 302 at 8 grand, no problem.

Hell, you can spin a 502 BBC at 8 grand. Pro Stock engines regularly top 10k, and they're 500 inches.

 

[TehMac]

There are plenty of heavy-duty parts available these days to spin a 302 at 8 grand, no problem.

Hell, you can spin a 502 BBC at 8 grand. Pro Stock engines regularly top 10k, and they're 500 inches.

I wonder how they sound. These Carb'd engines seem to be very very throaty, while the BMW V8 sounds very high pitched--is that just a muffler/exhaust mod?

 

[Pacfanweb]

I wonder how they sound. These Carb'd engines seem to be very very throaty, while the BMW V8 sounds very high pitched--is that just a muffler/exhaust mod?

No, it's the difference between an overhead cam engine and a push rod engine.

Most folks have no idea just how much noise the valve train makes on an OHV engine.

I remember hearing audio from one of the cam company's tests...they had a small block that they had rigged to just spin the valve train, to test it without actually running the engine. Basically, an electric motor hooked to the camshaft.

Damn thing was VERY loud, and that was with no combustion taking place.

 

[TehMac]

No, it's the difference between an overhead cam engine and a push rod engine.

Most folks have no idea just how much noise the valve train makes on an OHV engine.

I remember hearing audio from one of the cam company's tests...they had a small block that they had rigged to just spin the valve train, to test it without actually running the engine. Basically, an electric motor hooked to the camshaft.

Damn thing was VERY loud, and that was with no combustion taking place.

That's rather odd you'd think with two less cams, the OHV would be quieter. I wonder if there are special mufflers that reduce this clamor and focus on the engine's sensual higher notes.

 

[Demon-Xanth]

If you want real music from the valve trains, you need to go to antiques:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CxssIc4HUNM

But here's what an 8000RPM 302 sounds like:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vf4n5AHIX8U

 

[Pacfanweb]

That's rather odd you'd think with two less cams, the OHV would be quieter. I wonder if there are special mufflers that reduce this clamor and focus on the engine's sensual higher notes.

OHV has more moving parts. More movement=more noise.

 

[EightySix Four]

No, it's the difference between an overhead cam engine and a push rod engine.

Most folks have no idea just how much noise the valve train makes on an OHV engine.

I remember hearing audio from one of the cam company's tests...they had a small block that they had rigged to just spin the valve train, to test it without actually running the engine. Basically, an electric motor hooked to the camshaft.

Damn thing was VERY loud, and that was with no combustion taking place.

Negative. You can't tell me a Ford DOHC 4.6l v8 sounds closer to an M3's DOHC v8 than it does a pushrod LSx motor.

It's all about cam profile and exhaust.

Exhaust differences:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NyEmhjEu3O8

Now compare that stock car to this cammed one:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g9MVgrkbqqE&feature=related

Hear how it has become more high pitched and sounds like it is "screaming" compared to before? That's due to the change in the profile of the cam. This would be different on DOHC cars because of VVT, the overlap can be more aggressive at the top end without affecting the low.

Lastly, listen to this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MSZTbR6C6Lw

That's because the headers are 180* headers which changes the exhaust scavenging dramatically. Doesn't sound anything like the other two does it?

 

[Demon-Xanth]

The reason the Ford DOHC sounds closer to an LS2 is because they both have 90 degree cranks, which is an "american thing". The M3's V8 has a flat crank. That difference vastly changes how the exhaust pulses interact.

 

[EightySix Four]

The reason the Ford DOHC sounds closer to an LS2 is because they both have 90 degree cranks, which is an "american thing". The M3's V8 has a flat crank. That difference vastly changes how the exhaust pulses interact.

No it doesn't have a flat plane crank.

Though the concept is exactly what I showed with the 180* headers.

 

[TehMac]

But here's what an 8000RPM 302 sounds like:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vf4n5AHIX8U

Ugh that sounds so hot.

 

[TehMac]

While I am on the subject, why is power/torque generated on a curve? In other words why might more HP be found @ 5200 rpm as opposed to @ 6100 rpm (for a high displacement V8 for example.

 

[EightySix Four]

While I am on the subject, why is power/torque generated on a curve? In other words why might more HP be found @ 5200 rpm as opposed to @ 6100 rpm (for a high displacement V8 for example.

Motors are most efficient at a certain point in the rev range for a number of reasons. One of the biggest, once again, is the cam. Different camshafts have different locations in the rev range where they have the *perferct* amount of overlap and lift to move x airflow. Once you have passed that perfect area, the valves may be moving too quick for enough air/fuel to get into the cylinder. On the flip side, down low they are open too long and fresh air/fuel goes out of the exhaust valve before combustion.

I think.

 

[exdeath]

The Ford DOHC V8s sound unique in that they are DOHC 4V engines like many euro V8s and unlike typical American pushrod V8s , but use an American style cross plane crank (most Euros V8's are flat plane, the M3 V8 is actually crossplane).

With the right exhaust to make the most of it (eg: Bassani) you get a unique visceral sound that is the perfect blend of exotic screaming + American muscle, simultaneously.

 

[exdeath]

While I am on the subject, why is power/torque generated on a curve? In other words why might more HP be found @ 5200 rpm as opposed to @ 6100 rpm (for a high displacement V8 for example.

If you're taking about power dropping after peaking at a certain point on classic big American V8s, that's the point where 2 valve / pushrod engines cylinder great volume exceeds the capacity of the heads to move that volume of air.

Peaking then dropping off sharply is a classic dyno sheet of a pushrod V8, compared to a DOHC engine which doesn't make as much torque down low, but is able to pull like a train linearly without running out of breath towards redline.

Of course you can make any engine run however you want, but those are the typical characteristics.

As for why it's a curve, power is the rate that work is done, and a force at an RPM provides the needed variables (force, distance, time) to compute power. As for why the curve varies through it's range of useable RPM, it all has to do with what the engine was designed for, as things like intakes, heads, ports, valves, intake plenum harmonics, exhaust header pressure and scavaging, etc, (different parts in a fluid flow system) all behave differently at different air flow speeds.

Those components can be manipulated to move power around to wherever you want it. Long narrow intake runners for example give more intake velocity/momentum for a "ram charging" effect at low RPM because the air doesn't change directions in the long runners and is allowed to build up momentum. Also for a given volume of a fluid, decreasing flow area = increase in flow velocity to maintain the volume flow rate, and velocity is the key to momentum since we can't change the mass of the air. Momentum is important because the intake air is still moving into the cylinder after the piston has reached the bottom of the intake stroke, and is even still plowing in at the start of the compression stroke, under it's own forward momentum. But it the long runners that build momentum so well at low RPM become a bottleneck at high RPM like breathing through a straw. Short runners allow unrestricted flow at high RPM, but have poor velocity and high turbulence at low RPM, etc. It's all a system that works together and is highly tuned (fluid dynamics).

 

[EightySix Four]

The Ford DOHC V8s sound unique in that they are DOHC 4V engines like many euro V8s and unlike typical American pushrod V8s , but use an American style cross plane crank (most Euros V8's are flat plane, the M3 V8 is actually crossplane).

With the right exhaust to make the most of it (eg: Bassani) you get a unique visceral sound that is the perfect blend of exotic screaming + American muscle, simultaneously.

Sorry amigo, but I've never heard a mustang sound like an exotic screaming and I have heard a lot of pony cars. Mustangs sound distinctly muscular. Yes, the exhaust can take some of the edge off of the top end with a little less burble and a little more "scream," but you can do that to any OHV too.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CyTKT-KeV2c&feature=related

Also, taking volume into consideration, there is a very small amount of Euro V8's which are flat plane cranks. The 3 big German manufacturers which actually have V8's (BMW, Mercedes, Porsche) all use cross planes. The only flat plane stuff generally comes from Italy, is very expensive, and produced in low numbers. Although, TVR produced them as well.

 

[Zenmervolt]

I wonder how they sound. These Carb'd engines seem to be very very throaty, while the BMW V8 sounds very high pitched--is that just a muffler/exhaust mod?

No, it's the difference between an overhead cam engine and a push rod engine.

Most folks have no idea just how much noise the valve train makes on an OHV engine.

I remember hearing audio from one of the cam company's tests...they had a small block that they had rigged to just spin the valve train, to test it without actually running the engine. Basically, an electric motor hooked to the camshaft.

Damn thing was VERY loud, and that was with no combustion taking place.

It's also the crank layout. IIRC most BMW V8 engines use a flat-plane crank while most US V8 engines use a cross-plane crank. This causes quite a bit of difference in how the engines sound.

ZV