Why is ID an issue?

[theeedude]

100 page bill is all about ID? Republicans really believe that?

 

[Pohemi]

None of those are valid reasons and to date. no one has posted a valid reason.

The whole point is that it shouldn't require substantial time, effort, and/or money to get an official photo ID and that should not be considered any form of barrier to anything.

As previously stated, this has all been explained to you. And yet here you are, continuing to handwave it away once again, as if it's all lies.
Your personal, subjective bubble of reality does not apply to others just because you can't see how others live differently than you.

Fuck off, dipshit.

 

[woolfe9998]

Since you are the person arguing for addition restrictions on the right to vote the burden is on you to justify them.

The only thing voter ID protects against is in-person voter fraud where someone comes and impersonates another voter and gets away with it. Show us the data that indicates this is a problem that needs to be solved.

If you can’t show us this data, I assume you will agree voter ID is unnecessary. Correct?

Exactly, those who advocate for putting a restriction in place have the burden of explaining why the restriction is necessary.

So-called "common sense" arguments like, people might or could cast more than one vote if you don't put the restriction in place don't cut it. Not when we've had decades and decades of no ID requirements and there is no empirical proof of voter fraud beyond negligible occurrences.

Here's a simple answer as to why people don't do it even if there is no ID required: because the risk-reward ratio is way off. Even if you have a 90% chance of not getting caught and not going to prison, all you get in return is casting one additional vote. It isn't worth it for a 10% chance to go to prison. It isn't worth it for a 1% chance to go to prison. So people just don't even try it. This is clear from the data that Heritage Foundation has collected. It's an extraordinarily rare occurrence and is unlikely to ever be anything but no matter what measures are or are not in place.

So far as the cost-benefit of the ID laws themselves. Well, if you disenfranchise even 1% of legitimate voters, is it worth it to save 1 in 1,000,000 votes from being fraudulent? So we're going to preclude 10,000 legitimate votes for every 1 fraudulent vote we avoid?

 

[mikeymikec]

The whole point is that it shouldn't require substantial time, effort, and/or money to get an official photo ID and that should not be considered any form of barrier to anything.

I can't imagine a more pointless motive for wanting to perfectly streamline all agencies' processes responsible for issuing forms of photo ID than "I heard that widespread in-person voter fraud is a thing but I didn't take even a minute to critically analyse that claim".

 

[Fenixgoon]

The whole point is that it shouldn't require substantial time, effort, and/or money to get an official photo ID and that should not be considered any form of barrier to anything.

but it current *DOES* require substantial time, effort, and/or money. that's why it's a barrier in the first place.

if the feds gave out valid ID, for free, to every eligible voter, then this wouldn't be an issue.

 

[mikeymikec]

if the feds gave out valid ID, for free, to every eligible voter, then this wouldn't be an issue.

Within say 24 hours of the request being issued.

Maybe we can create another problem by fixing a non-existent one?

 

[fskimospy]

Exactly, those who advocate for putting a restriction in place have the burden of explaining why the restriction is necessary.

So-called "common sense" arguments like, people might or could cast more than one vote if you don't put the restriction in place don't cut it. Not when we've had decades and decades of no ID requirements and there is no empirical proof of voter fraud beyond negligible occurrences.

Here's a simple answer as to why people don't do it even if there is no ID required: because the risk-reward ratio is way off. Even if you have a 90% chance of not getting caught and not going to prison, all you get in return is casting one additional vote. It isn't worth it for a 10% chance to go to prison. It isn't worth it for a 1% chance to go to prison. So people just don't even try it. This is clear from the data that Heritage Foundation has collected. It's an extraordinarily rare occurrence and is unlikely to ever be anything but no matter what measures are or are not in place.

So far as the cost-benefit of the ID laws themselves. Well, if you disenfranchise even 1% of legitimate voters, is it worth it to save 1 in 1,000,000 votes from being fraudulent? So we're going to preclude 10,000 legitimate votes for every 1 fraudulent vote we avoid?

Yes, it is the single worst way imaginable to steal an election. To get fraudulent votes at the scale needed to make a difference in most elections you need a huge conspiracy of people (bad idea for not getting caught).

The theory of action has never made any sense, but this does not stop republicans from advocating for it because stopping fraud is not their intent.

 

[mikeymikec]

Yes, it is the single worst way imaginable to steal an election. To get fraudulent votes at the scale needed to make a difference in most elections you need a huge conspiracy of people (bad idea for not getting caught).

The theory of action has never made any sense, but this does not stop republicans from advocating for it because stopping fraud is not their intent.

<shrugs> the way I've always got the libdems voted in to power in the UK was with a bewildering array of fake moustaches and wigs. Running around all the polling centres keeps me fit too.

 

[MtnMan]

ID ... don't leave home without it.

Why? Do you live in a police state? Are there checkpoints where "show me your papers comrade" could be encountered.

I carry my driver's license, if I plan to drive.
I carry my Concealed Handgun Permit, if I am carrying my gun concealed*.

It has been a really long time since I have been "carded" to purchase alcohol.
I do not have to show my ID to vote, never have.
* I do not have to have my ID if I am open carrying my firearm.

 

[Greenman]

Well sure but people believe plenty of fantasies and we don’t indulge those? If someone thinks Jesus rode a dinosaur and wants to outlaw the teaching of evolution do we oppose them or do we say ‘well, that’s what they believe.’

Law requires that a person be both 18 years of age and a U.S. citizen to vote in federal elections. How does one meet those criteria? What is the simple and common method of determining if a person is who they claim to be?
It's Ludacris to believe that a functioning adult can't obtain a valid identification. If some states or local jurisdictions are creating impediments to obtaining a valid identification, they should be dealt with harshly, and the situation corrected. Every citizen has the right to vote, but it's not unreasonable to have to prove you're entitled to that right.

 

[Puffnstuff]

I'm all for showing a photo ID when voting but that isn't really the main issue. Removing polls from poor neighborhoods, telling people that its a crime to give people standing in long lines waiting to vote some food and water and reducing voting hours is just outrageous!

The GOP has a long history of gerrymandering to gain an advantage and this is no different for them. They will always try to cheat their way to the top and good people need to stand in their way!

 

[pmv]

So, put a picture on the SS cards. Issue a Federal ID card at no cost to all citizens. Mandate that states issue a non-expiring voter ID to all registered voters at no cost. Most states already have some sort of IDs for students, seniors, benefit recipients, etc. Put a picture on medical ID or insurance cards. Even some library cards have pictures. Bus or urban transit cards, and on and on and on .....

Let Senior, church, school or other community groups organize drives to help people get them.

I don't have one.

I don't want one. I never needed one before.

I don't think I should need one. You should trust me.

It's too inconvenient. I don't want to wait in line to get one.

It costs too much (make 'em free.)

None of those are valid reasons and to date. no one has posted a valid reason.



Now, if you could show me a state that refuses to issue picture IDs of any kind to certain races .....

No state would try something so blatant. Not post-civil-rights anyway. But there are plenty of more-subtle ways to achieve the same end, indirectly. By picking-and-choosing which sort of ID is acceptable, for example.

It's a stochastic process, you don't need to bar groups absolutely, you only need to create a barrier of any kind of cost in money or inconvenience, and you will suppress a proportion of votes from less-privileged groups, who can least afford those costs.

Bus passes or library cards are unlikely to be accepted as suitable ID. I don't know how it is in the US, but they certainly are not part of the recently-floated idea for photo-ID laws here. As I understand it the US already rejects student IDs.

You could just issue every citizen with an official photo ID automatically...but then you risk all sorts of other problems, with authorities demanding to see your papers for almost any pretext. Having to have an official state 'identity card' to present to the police or other officials is not really in the culture of the "Anglophere" (I associate it with the French, personally, but that might be an out-of-date stereotype).

Edit - I dimly recall a James Thurber essay where he mentions reading a French-authored "cowboy" story set in the Old West, in which the gun-wielding town Sheriff confronts newcomers to the town and demands to see their "Carte d'identity".

 

[fskimospy]

Law requires that a person be both 18 years of age and a U.S. citizen to vote in federal elections. How does one meet those criteria? What is the simple and common method of determining if a person is who they claim to be?

Similarly to how the United States has done it for the vast majority of its entire history, lol

It's Ludacris to believe that a functioning adult can't obtain a valid identification. If some states or local jurisdictions are creating impediments to obtaining a valid identification, they should be dealt with harshly, and the situation corrected. Every citizen has the right to vote, but it's not unreasonable to have to prove you're entitled to that right.

Now did you do your research and determine that it’s ludicrous that a functioning adult can’t obtain valid ID or did you just assume that was what’s true based on how you feel it should be?

Regardless, I don’t have to prove to you that it’s hard to get an ID - you have to prove to me that voter ID is solving a problem we have. The burden of proof is on YOU.

If you can’t show evidence that in-person voter fraud is occurring at a meaningful rate then you have no purpose for implementing this restriction and are advocating that we act irrationally. I am against irrational laws and you should be too. Are you?

 

[1prophet]

While democrats argue over voting ID laws and use boycotts against states that require them how come they didn't boycott the elephant that is coming through the back door and can soon become a defacto if not a dejure ID?

Publications - Citizens' Council For Health Freedom

When it comes to fighting for health freedom, information is key and knowledge is power. You can find CCHF's latest content – as well as our archived content

www.cchfreedom.org

 

[fskimospy]

No state would try something so blatant. Not post-civil-rights anyway. But there are plenty of more-subtle ways to achieve the same end, indirectly. By picking-and-choosing which sort of ID is acceptable, for example.

It's a stochastic process, you don't need to bar groups absolutely, you only need to create a barrier of any kind of cost in money or inconvenience, and you will suppress a proportion of votes from less-privileged groups, who can least afford those costs.

Bus passes or library cards are unlikely to be accepted as suitable ID. I don't know how it is in the US, but they certainly are not part of the recently-floated idea for photo-ID laws here. As I understand it the US already rejects student IDs.

You could just issue every citizen with an official photo ID automatically...but then you risk all sorts of other problems, with authorities demanding to see your papers for almost any pretext. Having to have an official state 'identity card' to present to the police or other officials is not really in the culture of the "Anglophere" (I associate it with the French, personally, but that might be an out-of-date stereotype).

Edit - I dimly recall a James Thurber essay where he mentions reading a French-authored "cowboy" story set in the Old West, in which the gun-wielding town Sheriff confronts newcomers to the town and demands to see their "Carte d'identity".

Conservatives are adamantly, almost hysterically opposed to any form of national ID card.

Again, they have been very up front about the fact that ID requirements are not about preventing fraud, they are about suppressing votes.

 

[fskimospy]

While democrats argue over voting ID laws and use boycotts against states that require them how come they didn't boycott the elephant that is coming through the back door and can soon become a defacto if not a dejure ID?

Publications - Citizens' Council For Health Freedom

When it comes to fighting for health freedom, information is key and knowledge is power. You can find CCHF's latest content – as well as our archived content

www.cchfreedom.org

Because a National ID card is a good idea and Democrats generally support it?

It’s the ultra right wing crazies that think a National ID is going to be some sort of government plot to lock them up and make them gay, not Democrats.

 

[fskimospy]

It is always very telling in these voter ID threads that no one ever seems to be able to point to a problem that voter ID would solve.

Why can’t you guys just be honest and admit you think it would help you win elections? Again, if you have any actual evidence of in person voter fraud I’m open to hearing it.

 

[Commodus]

While democrats argue over voting ID laws and use boycotts against states that require them how come they didn't boycott the elephant that is coming through the back door and can soon become a defacto if not a dejure ID?

Publications - Citizens' Council For Health Freedom

When it comes to fighting for health freedom, information is key and knowledge is power. You can find CCHF's latest content – as well as our archived content

www.cchfreedom.org

Have you ever actually addressed the issue at hand in a thread instead of sidetracking with more-enlightened-than-thou posturing?

National ID cards are a fine debate, but we're talking about existing ID cards being used for voter suppression. I don't know about you, but I'd say the debate about theoretical consequences of a national card are moot if Republicans rig elections to the point where their dreams of one-party rule are a reality.

 

[Meghan54]

And I'm wondering why all this focus on ID's, again? Is it the GA voting law that's bringing this up, because if it is, the ID requirements are far and away probably the least egregious crap within the GA voting law.

More egregious is the ability of the state legislature to replace a county's entire election commission with one person chosen by the legislature for damned near any reason the legislature wants to use. While the state can only replace 4 county voting commissions, that's about all it'd take to completely skew the election into whatever the Repubs. want it to be. All that has to be done is the state legislature say "Well, we feel DeKalb, Fulton (those two counties encompass ATL entirely), Richmond (Augusta), and Chatham (Savannah) are underperforming, so we're replacing the entire election commission in each county with a Repub. loyalist.....he'll make sure the voted get counted correctly. LOL"

The change to only 4 counties would give a complete lock to the Repubs. in GA forever. And this is one of the main pieces of shit within the GA voting bill that's really causing the uproar.

 

[ondma]

A large majority (70%) of our states have voter ID regulations so, right or wrong, they don't feel it is unnecessary.

Voter identification laws by state

Ballotpedia: The Encyclopedia of American Politics

ballotpedia.org

I live in Minnesota and looked up their rules. If one is registered, you dont have to show ID at the polls. They just mark your name off the list so you cant vote twice. If one wants to register at the polls, they have to show ID. That seems reasonable.

 

[ivwshane]

So, put a picture on the SS cards. Issue a Federal ID card at no cost to all citizens. Mandate that states issue a non-expiring voter ID to all registered voters at no cost. Most states already have some sort of IDs for students, seniors, benefit recipients, etc. Put a picture on medical ID or insurance cards. Even some library cards have pictures. Bus or urban transit cards, and on and on and on .....

Let Senior, church, school or other community groups organize drives to help people get them.

I don't have one.

I don't want one. I never needed one before.

I don't think I should need one. You should trust me.

It's too inconvenient. I don't want to wait in line to get one.

It costs too much (make 'em free.)

None of those are valid reasons and to date. no one has posted a valid reason.



Now, if you could show me a state that refuses to issue picture IDs of any kind to certain races .....

And yet you haven’t articulated a valid reason why one is needed.

 

[sportage]

In many republican controlled states it is now easier to buy a gun than to cast a vote. I even seen some guy handing out bottles of water to people standing in line to...... buy a gun. No water if you're voting, but plenty of Perrier for those gun buying.

As far an ID to vote, I too do not see the problem. I assume these people buy stuff at a grocery store, and cash checks, and oh the so many times people must have an ID, so what's the big deal? The same way that some organizations go door to door to "get out the vote" during election time, the same organizations could do a "get your ID" door to door. It can be done. To say that someone can not get out to get an ID is nonsense, when somehow they are getting out to buy food or to have food delivered. Just ask the same people who deliver the food to help with getting an ID. In most cases I'm sure they would, or could contact some organization that could help with the ID. If they were giving away free money but you needed an ID, you'd bet they would get their ID one way or another.

 

[ivwshane]

In many republican controlled states it is now easier to buy a gun than to cast a vote. I even seen some guy handing out bottles of water to people standing in line to...... buy a gun. No water if you're voting, but plenty of Perrier for those gun buying.

As far an ID to vote, I too do not see the problem. I assume these people buy stuff at a grocery store, and cash checks, and oh the so many times people must have an ID, so what's the big deal? The same way that some organizations go door to door to "get out the vote" during election time, the same organizations could do a "get your ID" door to door. It can be done. To say that someone can not get out to get an ID is nonsense, when somehow they are getting out to buy food or to have food delivered. Just ask the same people who deliver the food to help with getting an ID. In most cases I'm sure they would, or could contact some organization that could help with the ID. If they were giving away free money but you needed an ID, you'd bet they would get their ID one way or another.

So your ignorance makes it ok to enact laws that solve no problem but yet have real negative consequences for real people? Yeah, go fuck ourself.

 

[ondma]

Similarly to how the United States has done it for the vast majority of its entire history, lol

Now did you do your research and determine that it’s ludicrous that a functioning adult can’t obtain valid ID or did you just assume that was what’s true based on how you feel it should be?

Regardless, I don’t have to prove to you that it’s hard to get an ID - you have to prove to me that voter ID is solving a problem we have. The burden of proof is on YOU.

If you can’t show evidence that in-person voter fraud is occurring at a meaningful rate then you have no purpose for implementing this restriction and are advocating that we act irrationally. I am against irrational laws and you should be too. Are you?

It is "irrational" to be asked to prove you are who you say you are? OK then.

 

[fskimospy]

It is "irrational" to be asked to prove you are who you say you are? OK then.

No, it is irrational to create a burden on exercising your right to vote when that burden doesn’t accomplish anything.

You would agree that imposing costs on people without conferring any benefit is irrational, right?