Why is Anesthesiology median salary so high?

[TraumaRN]

Originally posted by: FelixDeKat

WHY can it be accomplished for less.[?]

Because everything can be accomplished for less. What can we do reduce the expenses to accomplish this task? What amount of automation can be applied?

Consider some other costs of rising health care costs.

Hospitals need to make money, correct?

When someone has insurance, generally the hospital will be able to get paid for most of what is performed when someone in there for inpatient or outpatient purposes.

Enter the problem of roughly 45 million people WITHOUT insurance. As a general rule, the hospital eats the cost of them coming to the hospital because they either cant pay or they cant pay nearly enough.

If you want innovation in health care I'll tell you some of the things my hospital is doing to cut costs and neither involve cutting workers or salaries.

 

[secretanchitman]

anesthesiology is what my dad does and i think hes damn well qualified for it (more than 10 degrees my mom says).

i think they make north of 400K i heard a doctor say once...

 

[FelixDeCat]

Originally posted by: alchemize
I wonder who'd be willing to put themselves under the gas of a 50K a year anesthesiologist? I got folks that work for me that make more than that and they can barely program.

50k was the first stab. Its 75k+ now. Programmers are paid too much too.

 

[Special K]

Originally posted by: dafatha00

Originally posted by: FelixDeKat

Right. I have no qualms with you on that point. If you noticed above, I was merely attacking FelixDeKat's contention that physicians should only be paid a net income of 75k.

I didnt say all physicians, I said anestheisiologists. And my argument wasnt with the fact that they "deserve" a certain amount, its that the job can / should be accomplished for alot less than it is now.

Any job can/should be accomplished for a certain amount. Should professional athletes and entertainers by paid millions of dollars a year for what they do? Should a CEO of a huge corporation be paid millions of dollars a year? It's not a question of should they be paid that much. If that were the case, we might as well be considered communist.

The fact of the matter is that our economy dictates the way that salaries are allocated to occupations. If the government forced a cap on the salary of Anesthesiologists at 75k a year, we'd have a huge demand for more Anesthesiologists because no one would be willing to go through the med school process for that low of a pay. What would happen then? The pay would increase until the market hits equilibrium, which happens to be at about 250k a year. Everything balances out in a free market economy. Understand now?

Do you still think this applies to actors/actresses though? I mean the big ones make millions, but there are also many others who make a living doing local/regional shows that probably don't make anywhere near that much. Is the acting profession such a demanding path that if the top stars weren't paid millions, then no one would be willing to act in any major movie or TV show?

 

[Soccer55]

Originally posted by: DeathBUA

Originally posted by: DeathBUA

Originally posted by: FelixDeKat

Right. I have no qualms with you on that point. If you noticed above, I was merely attacking FelixDeKat's contention that physicians should only be paid a net income of 75k.

I didnt say all physicians, I said anestheisiologists. And my argument wasnt with the fact that they "deserve" a certain amount, its that the job can / should be accomplished for alot less than it is now.

WHY can it be accomplished for less.

There is my other question.

Actually controlling salaries is not the way to do it in healthcare. Like I said do some research first, figure out where the costs are coming from and i will tell you it's not from the salaries of health care workers.

One source of the costs are uninsured patients that enter the hospital through the ER and are unable to pay for their hospital stay. Due to a law passed in the 80's, a hospital is REQUIRED to stabilize any patient that comes through the ER doors.....whether they can pay for the treatment or not. Most of the time, if the patient can't pay, the hospital has to eat the cost of whatever treatment they have administered to the patient. Some people abuse the system for minor ailments such as ear infections and others are legitimate emergencies. I can imagine this contributes a lot to the rising costs because the hospital needs to recoup their losses from somewhere.....

-Tom

 

[alchemize]

Originally posted by: FelixDeKat

Originally posted by: alchemize
I wonder who'd be willing to put themselves under the gas of a 50K a year anesthesiologist? I got folks that work for me that make more than that and they can barely program.

50k was the first stab. Its 75k+ now. Programmers are paid too much too.

I got a programmer making 77K that hunts and pecks. He's OK at COBOL. Horrible at new skills. Hates the world.

You can't pay enough for skilled medical professionals.

 

[BUrassler]

Originally posted by: miniMUNCH
This reminds me to state my top two steps to reduce the cost of healthcare:

1. Regulate drug advertizing and do not allow companies to advertize prescription drugs to patients via TV, radio, popular websites and magazines. In some cases, a third of the "operating cost" associated with a drug is due to advertizing. A central FDA run website would be set up that details all prescriptions drugs that are approved or in clinical trial for xyz symptoms and illnesses so it would be easy for doctors and patients to research drugs.

2. Get rid of malpractice insurance all together. Medical care would be "at risk". ..meaning prior to undergoing a surgery, etc. the patient is informed of the risks and are not allowed to sue except in really bad cases (wrong leg is cut off, etc.) Doctors would be regulated by an FDA-like oversight organization that would handle setting validation and education standards for practicing doctors/surgeons and handling disciplinary cases when doctors make mistakes

Why did I bother thinking all this out? Several of my friends and family members are doctors. My mom has worked in the health insurance industry for 20 years. And I used to work for a pharmaceutical company. So the healthcare industry has been a part of my life.

I believe the US is one of only 2 countries that allows direct drug advertising to the general public in the world. I think it is important for a patient to be informed, but this is not the way. They are simply being mislead.

 

[FelixDeCat]

Originally posted by: alchemize

Originally posted by: FelixDeKat

Originally posted by: alchemize
I wonder who'd be willing to put themselves under the gas of a 50K a year anesthesiologist? I got folks that work for me that make more than that and they can barely program.

50k was the first stab. Its 75k+ now. Programmers are paid too much too.

I got a programmer making 77K that hunts and pecks. He's OK at COBOL. Horrible at new skills. Hates the world.

You can't pay enough for skilled medical professionals.

Are you hiring? I dont know Cobol (I was programming in Basic in 1982), but Im a quick study especially for 75k! :beer:

 

[TraumaRN]

Originally posted by: FelixDeKat

WHY can it be accomplished for less.[?]

Because everything can be accomplished for less. What can we do reduce the expenses to accomplish this task? What amount of automation can be applied?

Consider some other costs of rising health care costs.

Hospitals need to make money, correct?

When someone has insurance, generally the hospital will be able to get paid for most of what is performed when someone in there for inpatient or outpatient purposes.

Enter the problem of roughly 45 million people WITHOUT insurance. As a general rule, the hospital eats the cost of them coming to the hospital because they either cant pay or they cant pay nearly enough.

If you want innovation in health care I'll tell you some of the things my hospital is doing to cut costs and neither involve cutting workers or salaries.

 

[alchemize]

Originally posted by: FelixDeKat

Originally posted by: alchemize

Originally posted by: FelixDeKat

Originally posted by: alchemize
I wonder who'd be willing to put themselves under the gas of a 50K a year anesthesiologist? I got folks that work for me that make more than that and they can barely program.

50k was the first stab. Its 75k+ now. Programmers are paid too much too.

I got a programmer making 77K that hunts and pecks. He's OK at COBOL. Horrible at new skills. Hates the world.

You can't pay enough for skilled medical professionals.

Are you hiring? I dont know Cobol (I was programming in Basic in 1982), but Im a quick study especially for 75k! :beer:

You wouldn't get along well with the skilled medical professionals I have to work with

Felix to the Chief Medical Officer "Dude you make way too much money! Can't we just automate your knowledge and skills"?

 

[Slew Foot]

<---- Anesthesiologist (I guess this thread was meant for me )

Well, since IM the most qualified to speak on this topic Ills tart at the beginning:

Training:
After 4 years of medical school, an Anesthesiologist must undergo 1 year of internship (either medical or surgical) and then 3 years of residency (80 hour weeks, 40K/yr pay, not very fun). After that, they may elect to undergo a fellowship (specialized training) for a year, or enter into a medical practice.

Scope of practice:
There are basically three areas where Anesthesiologists work:

The Operating Room:
From the time the patient enters the per-op area, to the time they are discharged from the PACU(Post Anesthesia Care Unit), they are under the watchful eye on an Anesthesiologist. IN the pre-op area, we make sure that the patient is fit for surgery (hasn't eaten recently, isn't having a heart attack, etc..) is properly informed of the procedure, and is comfortable and relaxed enough to proceed. Once transported to the OR, we take care of the patient until the surgery is over. There are many ways to do this but I wont bore you with the details (General Anesthesia, regional techniques, Conscious sedation/monitored care, etc..). Once the procedure is over, we awaken the patient and transport them to the PACU, where they stay for about an hour or so, until the are cleared to go home or to the ward.

THe obstetrical floor:
On Labor and Delivery, the Anesthesiologist is in charge of placing labor epidurals and for patients undergoing cesarian sections and other obstetrical procedures.

The ICU:
A new area for most of us, some of us are braching into critical care where we take care of ventilators, lines, antibiotics, and other daily necessities of patients in Intensive Care units.


Risks:
Anesthesia is a risky job. Im not sure if any other field of medicine can take a perfectly healthy patient and have them completely brain dead in 5 minutes. Any one of my standard induction drugs (fentanyl, propofol, rocuronium) can kill a patient withina few minutes if they are not monitored closely. During the case, surgical manipulation, blood loss, positioning, and ahost of other factors can cause patients to undergo large amounts of hemdynamic instability, which must be monitored and treated. Finally, waking up patients can be even more risky, residual anesthetic gas (or other drugs) can cause someone to stop breathing in the most inopportune places (like transporting in the hallway), and the anesthesiologist must be aware of the patient at all times.


Pay Scale:
Typically starting out, average pay is around 230-300K depending on your location. People tend to max out at around 5-600K depending on where they are and how much they work. Insurance costs run between 30K-60K on average and depends on the state you practice in. I make around $240 base but my insurance is paid for by the university.



And no, no one would take on this much liability for 75K a year. Heck that's less than computer geeks make, why dont you guys work for free and stop charging for internet access?

Anyway, I tried to be succint and to the point, if you have any questions Im happy to answer them.

 

[maziwanka]

Originally posted by: 2Xtreme21
Medical Malpractice.

Edit: To clarify, they're solely responsible for a patient's life when they're out. Anything goes wrong and they have to confront it.

this is the main reason why.

 

[BUrassler]

Originally posted by: Slew Foot
<---- Anesthesiologist (I guess this thread was meant for me )

Well, since IM the most qualified to speak on this topic Ills tart at the beginning:

Training:
After 4 years of medical school, an Anesthesiologist must undergo 1 year of internship (either medical or surgical) and then 3 years of residency (80 hour weeks, 40K/yr pay, not very fun). After that, they may elect to undergo a fellowship (specialized training) for a year, or enter into a medical practice.

Scope of practice:
There are basically three areas where Anesthesiologists work:

The Operating Room:
From the time the patient enters the per-op area, to the time they are discharged from the PACU(Post Anesthesia Care Unit), they are under the watchful eye on an Anesthesiologist. IN the pre-op area, we make sure that the patient is fit for surgery (hasn't eaten recently, isn't having a heart attack, etc..) is properly informed of the procedure, and is comfortable and relaxed enough to proceed. Once transported to the OR, we take care of the patient until the surgery is over. There are many ways to do this but I wont bore you with the details (General Anesthesia, regional techniques, Conscious sedation/monitored care, etc..). Once the procedure is over, we awaken the patient and transport them to the PACU, where they stay for about an hour or so, until the are cleared to go home or to the ward.

THe obstetrical floor:
On Labor and Delivery, the Anesthesiologist is in charge of placing labor epidurals and for patients undergoing cesarian sections and other obstetrical procedures.

The ICU:
A new area for most of us, some of us are braching into critical care where we take care of ventilators, lines, antibiotics, and other daily necessities of patients in Intensive Care units.


Risks:
Anesthesia is a risky job. Im not sure if any other field of medicine can take a perfectly healthy patient and have them completely brain dead in 5 minutes. Any one of my standard induction drugs (fentanyl, propofol, rocuronium) can kill a patient withina few minutes if they are not monitored closely. During the case, surgical manipulation, blood loss, positioning, and ahost of other factors can cause patients to undergo large amounts of hemdynamic instability, which must be monitored and treated. Finally, waking up patients can be even more risky, residual anesthetic gas (or other drugs) can cause someone to stop breathing in the most inopportune places (like transporting in the hallway), and the anesthesiologist must be aware of the patient at all times.


Pay Scale:
Typically starting out, average pay is around 230-300K depending on your location. People tend to max out at around 5-600K depending on where they are and how much they work. Insurance costs run between 30K-60K on average and depends on the state you practice in. I make around $240 base but my insurance is paid for by the university.



And no, no one would take on this much liability for 75K a year. Heck that's less than computer geeks make, why dont you guys work for free and stop charging for internet access?

Anyway, I tried to be succint and to the point, if you have any questions Im happy to answer them.

Thanks for the explaination, really.

 

[Rock Hydra]

Originally posted by: FelixDeKat
This is nothing more than specialized nursing, 50k max.

300k :roll:

Did you even stop to think before you typed that out?

 

[TraumaRN]

Originally posted by: BUrassler

Originally posted by: Slew Foot
<---- Anesthesiologist (I guess this thread was meant for me )

Well, since IM the most qualified to speak on this topic Ills tart at the beginning:

Training:
After 4 years of medical school, an Anesthesiologist must undergo 1 year of internship (either medical or surgical) and then 3 years of residency (80 hour weeks, 40K/yr pay, not very fun). After that, they may elect to undergo a fellowship (specialized training) for a year, or enter into a medical practice.

Scope of practice:
There are basically three areas where Anesthesiologists work:

The Operating Room:
From the time the patient enters the per-op area, to the time they are discharged from the PACU(Post Anesthesia Care Unit), they are under the watchful eye on an Anesthesiologist. IN the pre-op area, we make sure that the patient is fit for surgery (hasn't eaten recently, isn't having a heart attack, etc..) is properly informed of the procedure, and is comfortable and relaxed enough to proceed. Once transported to the OR, we take care of the patient until the surgery is over. There are many ways to do this but I wont bore you with the details (General Anesthesia, regional techniques, Conscious sedation/monitored care, etc..). Once the procedure is over, we awaken the patient and transport them to the PACU, where they stay for about an hour or so, until the are cleared to go home or to the ward.

THe obstetrical floor:
On Labor and Delivery, the Anesthesiologist is in charge of placing labor epidurals and for patients undergoing cesarian sections and other obstetrical procedures.

The ICU:
A new area for most of us, some of us are braching into critical care where we take care of ventilators, lines, antibiotics, and other daily necessities of patients in Intensive Care units.


Risks:
Anesthesia is a risky job. Im not sure if any other field of medicine can take a perfectly healthy patient and have them completely brain dead in 5 minutes. Any one of my standard induction drugs (fentanyl, propofol, rocuronium) can kill a patient withina few minutes if they are not monitored closely. During the case, surgical manipulation, blood loss, positioning, and ahost of other factors can cause patients to undergo large amounts of hemdynamic instability, which must be monitored and treated. Finally, waking up patients can be even more risky, residual anesthetic gas (or other drugs) can cause someone to stop breathing in the most inopportune places (like transporting in the hallway), and the anesthesiologist must be aware of the patient at all times.


Pay Scale:
Typically starting out, average pay is around 230-300K depending on your location. People tend to max out at around 5-600K depending on where they are and how much they work. Insurance costs run between 30K-60K on average and depends on the state you practice in. I make around $240 base but my insurance is paid for by the university.



And no, no one would take on this much liability for 75K a year. Heck that's less than computer geeks make, why dont you guys work for free and stop charging for internet access?

Anyway, I tried to be succint and to the point, if you have any questions Im happy to answer them.

Thanks for the explaination, really.

Woohoo....finally someone with credibility. I thought I was gonna have to goto my hospital and steal an Anesthesiologist to explain what you just said

 

[BlueWeasel]

Just move to MS if you think they are paid too much....according to the PayScale.com link, the average pay in the state is $76K

 

[everman]

Originally posted by: Slew Foot
<---- Anesthesiologist (I guess this thread was meant for me )

Well, since IM the most qualified to speak on this topic Ills tart at the beginning:

Nice to see some facts and common sence :beer:

What do you like the most about your job?

 

[JS80]

DEMAND DEMAND DEMAND + supply + Malpractice insurance = huge salary.

 

[RichardE]

Originally posted by: Slew Foot
<---- Anesthesiologist (I guess this thread was meant for me )

Well, since IM the most qualified to speak on this topic Ills tart at the beginning:

Training:
After 4 years of medical school, an Anesthesiologist must undergo 1 year of internship (either medical or surgical) and then 3 years of residency (80 hour weeks, 40K/yr pay, not very fun). After that, they may elect to undergo a fellowship (specialized training) for a year, or enter into a medical practice.

Scope of practice:
There are basically three areas where Anesthesiologists work:

The Operating Room:
From the time the patient enters the per-op area, to the time they are discharged from the PACU(Post Anesthesia Care Unit), they are under the watchful eye on an Anesthesiologist. IN the pre-op area, we make sure that the patient is fit for surgery (hasn't eaten recently, isn't having a heart attack, etc..) is properly informed of the procedure, and is comfortable and relaxed enough to proceed. Once transported to the OR, we take care of the patient until the surgery is over. There are many ways to do this but I wont bore you with the details (General Anesthesia, regional techniques, Conscious sedation/monitored care, etc..). Once the procedure is over, we awaken the patient and transport them to the PACU, where they stay for about an hour or so, until the are cleared to go home or to the ward.

THe obstetrical floor:
On Labor and Delivery, the Anesthesiologist is in charge of placing labor epidurals and for patients undergoing cesarian sections and other obstetrical procedures.

The ICU:
A new area for most of us, some of us are braching into critical care where we take care of ventilators, lines, antibiotics, and other daily necessities of patients in Intensive Care units.


Risks:
Anesthesia is a risky job. Im not sure if any other field of medicine can take a perfectly healthy patient and have them completely brain dead in 5 minutes. Any one of my standard induction drugs (fentanyl, propofol, rocuronium) can kill a patient withina few minutes if they are not monitored closely. During the case, surgical manipulation, blood loss, positioning, and ahost of other factors can cause patients to undergo large amounts of hemdynamic instability, which must be monitored and treated. Finally, waking up patients can be even more risky, residual anesthetic gas (or other drugs) can cause someone to stop breathing in the most inopportune places (like transporting in the hallway), and the anesthesiologist must be aware of the patient at all times.


Pay Scale:
Typically starting out, average pay is around 230-300K depending on your location. People tend to max out at around 5-600K depending on where they are and how much they work. Insurance costs run between 30K-60K on average and depends on the state you practice in. I make around $240 base but my insurance is paid for by the university.



And no, no one would take on this much liability for 75K a year. Heck that's less than computer geeks make, why dont you guys work for free and stop charging for internet access?

Anyway, I tried to be succint and to the point, if you have any questions Im happy to answer them.

Thanks for the answer. Thats alot of responsibilty for one person, what made you choose the field?

 

[Slew Foot]

Originally posted by: everman

Originally posted by: Slew Foot
<---- Anesthesiologist (I guess this thread was meant for me )

Well, since IM the most qualified to speak on this topic Ills tart at the beginning:

Nice to see some facts and common sence :beer:

What do you like the most about your job?

Thanks!

I enjoy the excitement and fast paced action that can happen in the OR. Today we had a guy come in with a ruptured aorta who had to be taken to the OR emergently. I ended up putting 25 units of blood (25x250ml~ 1.5 gallons) into the guy during the coarse of the procedure. I had to place a line into his heart from his neck to monitor his heart function since his heart was failing, it was a pretty exciting 4 or 5 hours.
That was pretty much all I did today (aside from a visit from the SS, see the other thread). So I got to watch the Avalanche-Stars game, all in all a pretty good day.

 

[msparish]

For those arguing that the free market has determined the worth of physicians...that isn't true. The supply of physicians in the USA is artificially kept down by the AMA. Every year, there are thousands of people who want to go to med school (and who are smart enough to do it) who don't get in. Remove this barrier, supply goes up, salaries fall. Rather putting a cap on the amount physicians make, we should remove the cap on the number of physicians. If you can't pass the boards, you don't get to practice.

For those who say that many doctors would be of lower quality...you are probably right. However, they would still have to pass the boards, so they couldn't be any worse than many doctors practicing today. But, it is also true that the smartest aren't necessarily the ones who get into med school in the first place.

I thought about becoming a physician for quite sometime. In fact, I could be in med school next year if I wanted to. The reason I'm not going to become a doctor? I don't feel that I would make enough money for the time commitment in becoming a physician. Ironic, isn't it?

 

[Special K]

It's threads like this that sometimes make me wish I had chosen my field of study based on $$ and not interest (currently a grad student in EE).

 

[Pacfanweb]

They take you to near-death so you can be operated on, and bring you back. That's worth a lot in my book.

 

[Nikamichi]

Originally posted by: Proletariat
Small Asian men make a lot of money.

/ban

lol

 

[Kenazo]

I've worked on tax returns for doctors that make more like 400-600k, and this is in Canada under socialized medical care.