Why I don't think PhysX is a big deal

MarcVenice

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Apr 2, 2007
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@ keys, I didn't see your list untill later, and since we have to keep threads on topic I'm making a new one. First of, you know a whole lot more about videocards then I do, but I'm pretty confident I know a whole lot more about games then you do. I review them, so I'd like to think I've played most games worth playing and that I know what's coming in the future.

Now, onto the list of games that can take advantage of Physx acceleration on the gpu, http://www.nzone.com/object/nzone_physxgames_home.html. I wanted to comment on each game, but it will simply take to long. First of all, half the games on that list are allready out. They use physx, for ragdoll effects and a small matter of debri that can fly around, nothing stellar though. All those games run great, so why do we need physx acceleration for it?

Out of all the games that aren't out yet, only a few stand out as qaulity titles, being developed by well known developers. Games like Cryostasis, Sacred 2 and perhaps Worldshift. And perhaps there are a few diamonds in the rough. But I can't find one game that will be anything like UT3's tornado level or like Warmonger.

What I'm trying to say is, although your benchmarks from warmonger and a few other levels loaded with heavy physics, might need a nvidia videocard, there are no such games coming out in the forseeable future. I don't see any games that will make people go, oh wow, I should really by a nvidia videocard because I love that game. All the games on that list will run great without any physx hardware acceleration. Half of the games allready run great without hardware physx acceleration.

That's why physx is no big deal, yet. And trust me, I think Nvidia is on the right path, the fact that you can run an older card to do physx alongside a new videocard, on a non sli motherboard is great. And it's basicaly free, you're not losing anything. It's just that right now, it's not a big deal at all. Some physx elements, like tearing cloth, and more realistic behavior of fluids is pretty cool, but then again, these are small elements, and I bet we won't need hardware capable of doing physx acceleration to play those games.

Fact is, when games like warmonger do start appearing, like many sites previewing the physx pack have mentioned, a lot of people with ATI videocards, or without ppu's, can't play it. That's probably why it will take some time for phyics acceleration on nvidia videocards to become a big deal. Also, although nivdia might have good relations with many developers and publishers, game development takes a pretty long time, they can't just throw some amazing physics in there, just like that. If developers start making a game right now, they might depend on physx more then 'older' titles, but those games won't be out for another year, year and a half.



Title edited to not call-out an individual member.

Video Mod BFG10K.


This thread has degenerated in to a mosh pit.

*click*

-ViRGE
 

SunnyD

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Jan 2, 2001
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Thanks for your editorial. This is the exact same editorial when the PhysX PPU's came out a couple years ago, so it's nothing new. NVIDIA would say the same thing about DX10.1. Any ATI fanboy would say the same thing you said. But in any event, it's good to see this same thing that has been said in a dozen other threads got its very own thread.
 

Wreckage

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Jul 1, 2005
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So basically because you are not into game physics, it useless to everyone?

That's kind of what I got from your whole rant.

That's an impressive list of games already using PHYSX and now that NVIDIA is providing a driver FOR FREE so that current NVIDIA cards can make use of PHYSX I really don't understand how anyone can be complaining about it.

Do you have a card that can take advantage of PHYSX so that you can try the new improvements?

http://www.techreport.com/articles.x/15261

Along with the drivers will come a downloadable PhysX software pack containing free Unreal Tournament 3 maps, the full version of NetDevil's Warmonger, a couple of Nvidia demos, and sneak peeks at Object Software's Metal Knight Zero and Nurien Software's Nurien social-networking service.

Speaking of new games, Nvidia told us about two upcoming titles that will feature PhysX hardware acceleration. One of them is DICE's Mirror's Edge, which will feature awesome-looking first-person free running in a futuristic dystopia. Another is Natural Motion's Backbreaker, a third-person football sim. Nvidia claims studios have signed on to implement PhysX in another 10 games?and that's just in the month following the Ageia acquisition.
 

ajaidevsingh

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Mar 7, 2008
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DOes no one care that Physx eats up the Gpu muscles ??

If it was up to me i would integrate a phy controller chip near the main core...!!!
 

MarcVenice

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Apr 2, 2007
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Who said I'm not into physics. Did you even read what I wrote? I'm going to qoute myself here so you don't have to look it up: "things like tearing cloth, and more realistic behavior of fluids is pretty cool, but then again, these are small elements, and I bet we won't need hardware capable of doing physx acceleration to play those games."

That so called impressive list, isn't all that impressive. Those games are a) allready out, b) some are in fact allready quite old and c) are not triple a games 99% of the time. They don't have physics in a way that warmonger does. And yes, I do have a card that supposedly can take advantage of the new drivers, and I will be trying it on the 12th of august. And I'm sure I will like it, it's just not a selling point. Do you honestly think mirror's edge isn't going to run on ATI cards, because it will have groundbreaking physics built into it?

That's what I'm trying to say. A) There are no real games that will take advantage of physx that warrant buying a nvidia videocard, because otherwise you can't play the game and B) for games to appear that do it will take a pretty long time.
 

solofly

Banned
May 25, 2003
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Originally posted by: ajaidevsingh
DOes no one care that Physx eats up the Gpu muscles ??

Good point. Now if you have a 280gtx and a small monitor you may be ok but those with lower end (or older) 88xx's and large screens won't be happy. (I know I wouldn't)
 

apoppin

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Mar 9, 2000
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Originally posted by: Wreckage
So basically because you are not into game physics, it useless to everyone?

i don't think that is what Marc is saying

it is useless to everyone *now*

who knows or cares about "next year's features" ?

i buy a graphics card for a few months now. i used to keep them for 2 years. Even IF i bought a 48x0 series, there won't be *enough* PhysX games or top titles to move most gamers to Nvidia in the next 2 years.

PhysX is "marketing" right now .. later it may even be important - or it may flop if intel gets it way with Havok


And you can say the same for DX10.1 ... one game? who cares?
..now?

same with CUDA ..

talking the Right Here Right Now - gamers don't care about PhysX
Nvidia claims studios have signed on to implement PhysX in another 10 games?and that's just in the month following the Ageia acquisition.

Marketing .. pure marketing .. wow ten games out of hundreds; and we still don't know how the PhysX slows the FPS - or not.
:roll:

can't i just pick up an old Aegia PCI card? =P
 

Wreckage

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Jul 1, 2005
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Originally posted by: MarcVenice
Who said I'm not into physics. Did you even read what I wrote? I'm going to qoute myself here so you don't have to look it up: "things like tearing cloth, and more realistic behavior of fluids is pretty cool, but then again, these are small elements, and I bet we won't need hardware capable of doing physx acceleration to play those games."

That so called impressive list, isn't all that impressive. Those games are a) allready out, b) some are in fact allready quite old and c) are not triple a games 99% of the time. They don't have physics in a way that warmonger does. And yes, I do have a card that supposedly can take advantage of the new drivers, and I will be trying it on the 12th of august. And I'm sure I will like it, it's just not a selling point. Do you honestly think mirror's edge isn't going to run on ATI cards, because it will have groundbreaking physics built into it?

That's what I'm trying to say. A) There are no real games that will take advantage of physx that warrant buying a nvidia videocard, because otherwise you can't play the game and B) for games to appear that do it will take a pretty long time.

This is just another ATI vs NVIDIA thing. :roll:

 

Wreckage

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Jul 1, 2005
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Originally posted by: apoppin


can't i just pick up an old Aegia PCI card? =P

If you would have bought a man's card to begin with, you would not need a separate card. :laugh:
 

apoppin

Lifer
Mar 9, 2000
34,890
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alienbabeltech.com
Originally posted by: Wreckage
Originally posted by: MarcVenice
Who said I'm not into physics. Did you even read what I wrote? I'm going to qoute myself here so you don't have to look it up: "things like tearing cloth, and more realistic behavior of fluids is pretty cool, but then again, these are small elements, and I bet we won't need hardware capable of doing physx acceleration to play those games."

That so called impressive list, isn't all that impressive. Those games are a) allready out, b) some are in fact allready quite old and c) are not triple a games 99% of the time. They don't have physics in a way that warmonger does. And yes, I do have a card that supposedly can take advantage of the new drivers, and I will be trying it on the 12th of august. And I'm sure I will like it, it's just not a selling point. Do you honestly think mirror's edge isn't going to run on ATI cards, because it will have groundbreaking physics built into it?

That's what I'm trying to say. A) There are no real games that will take advantage of physx that warrant buying a nvidia videocard, because otherwise you can't play the game and B) for games to appear that do it will take a pretty long time.

This is just another ATI vs NVIDIA thing. :roll:

Yes it is

it is MARKETING .. on both sides

hype for DX10.1

hype for PhysX

hype for Havok

hype for CUDA



Pick a 4870 OR a GT260 ... you will not be left "in the cold" either way

if you keep your graphics card for 4 years, the above does not apply to you .. but then you will not be on the "cutting edge" for 3/4 years. Decide carefully then.


Originally posted by: Wreckage
Originally posted by: apoppin


can't i just pick up an old Aegia PCI card? =P

If you would have bought a man's card to begin with, you would not need a separate card. :laugh:

Well, i can pick up one really cheap now and i can still have DX10.1 and my tesselator AND my PhysX - IF it turns out to be the next "big thing"

i think intel will work against Nvidia's PhysX with AMD - Hand-in-hand
- PhysX is no "done deal" for gaming
rose.gif

 

MarcVenice

Moderator Emeritus <br>
Apr 2, 2007
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@wreckage

To some extent it is about Nvidia vs ATI, but this is because nvidia fanboys and the focusgroup members are pushing physx as a reason to buy nvidia videocards. And I'm trying to refute their claims, by explaining and showing people, using simple logic, as to why physx are no big deal, yet ... It's not that hard to understand really. This thread isn't on the video forum because it looks like a nice place.

@ajaidevsingh

Reason I didn't mention the drop in FPS is because in some of the benchmarks I've seen from keys is that even though FPS might go down, the games are still very much playable. IF game devs can find a good balance between graphics and physics it could actually be pretty cool, and I wouldn't care about having only 60fps vs 80fps which I would have without physics being run on my videocard.
 

ajaidevsingh

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Mar 7, 2008
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Originally posted by: MarcVenice
@wreckage

To some extent it is about Nvidia vs ATI, but this is because nvidia fanboys and the focusgroup members are pushing physx as a reason to buy nvidia videocards. And I'm trying to refute their claims, by explaining and showing people, using simple logic, as to why physx are no big deal, yet ... It's not that hard to understand really. This thread isn't on the video forum because it looks like a nice place.

@ajaidevsingh

Reason I didn't mention the drop in FPS is because in some of the benchmarks I've seen from keys is that even though FPS might go down, the games are still very much playable. IF game devs can find a good balance between graphics and physics it could actually be pretty cool, and I wouldn't care about having only 60fps vs 80fps which I would have without physics being run on my videocard.

Well that is correct for this gen. games just think of Crysis with PhysX ya that will be a kick in the down area!!!

Current Phys is not worth the pain of first testing the best Physx driver then Nvidia+Vista problems and then getting new Physx drivers to try again and the cycle continues..!!
 

Wreckage

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Jul 1, 2005
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Here's a list of games with Physx support

2 Days to Vegas Steel Monkeys PC
Adrenalin 2: Rush Hour Gaijin Entertainment PC
Age of Empires III Distineer Studios PC, Mac
Age of Empires III: The WarChiefs Distineer Studios Mac
Alpha Prime Black Element Software PC
Auto Assault Net Devil PC
Backbreaker Natural Motion TBA
B.A.S.E. Jumping Digital Dimension Development PC
Bet on Soldier: Blackout Saigon Kylotonn Entertainment PC
Bet on Soldier: Blood of Sahara Kylotonn Entertainment PC
Bet on Soldier: Blood Sport Kylotonn Entertainment PC
Beowulf Ubisoft PS3, X360
Bladestorm: The Hundred Years' War Koei PS3, X360
Captain Blood Akella PC, X360
Cellfactor: Combat Training Artifical Studios, Immersion Games PC
Cellfactor: Revolution Artifical Studios, Immersion Games PC
City of Villains Cryptic Studios PC
Crazy Machines II FAKT Software PC
Cryostasis Action Forms PC
Dark Physics The Game Creators PC
Desert Diner Tarsier Studios PC
Dragonshard Atari PC
Dusk 12 Orion PC
Empire Above All IceHill PC
Empire Earth III Mad Dog Software PC
Entropia Universe MindArk PC
Fallen Earth Icarus Studios PC
Fury Auran Games PC
Gears Of War Epic Games PC, X360
Gluk'Oza: Action GFI Russia PC
GooBall Ambrosia software Mac
Gothic 3 Piranha Bytes PC
Gunship Apocalypse FAKT Software PC
Heavy Rain Quantic Dream PC
Hero's Jorney Simutronics PC
Hour of Victory nFusion Interactive X360
Hunt, The Orion PC
Huxley Webzen, Inc PC, X360
Infernal Metropolis Software PC
Inhabited island: Prisoner of Power Orion PC
Joint Task Force Most Wanted Entertainment PC
Kuma\WAR Kuma Reality Games PC
Magic ball 3 Alawar Entertaiment PC
Mass Effect BioWare PC, X360
Medal of Honor: Airborne EA Los Angeles PC, X360
Metro 2033 4A Games PC
Mobile Suit Gundam: Crossfire BEC PS3
Monster Madness: Battle for Suburbia Artificial Studios PC, X360
Monster Truck Maniax Legendo Entertainment PC
Myst Online: URU Live Cyan Worlds PC
Open Fire BlueTorch Studios PC
Paragraph 78 Gaijin Entertainment PC
Pirates of the Burning Sea Flying Lab Software PC
PT Boats: Knights of the Sea Akella PC
Rail Simulator Kuju Entertainment Ltd PC
Red Steel Ubisoft Paris Wii
Rise Of Nations: Rise Of Legends Big Huge Games PC
Roboblitz Naked Sky Entertainment PC, X360
Sacred 2 ASCARON Entertainment PC
Sherlock Holmes: The Awakened Frogwares Game Development Studio PC
Showdown: Scorpion B-COOL Interactive PC
Silverfall Monte Cristo PC
Sovereign Symphony Ceidot Game Studios PC
Sonic and the Secret Rings SEGA Wii
Speedball 2 Kylotonn Entertainment PC
Stalin Subway, The Orion PC
Stoked Rider: Alaska Alien Bongfish Interactive Entertainment PC
Switchball Atomic Elbow PC
Tension Ice-pick Lodge PC
Tom Clancy's Ghost Recon Advanced Warfighter GRIN PC, X360
Tom Clancy's Ghost Recon Advanced Warfighter 2 GRIN, Ubisoft Paris PC, X360
Tom Clancy's Rainbow Six Vegas Ubisoft Montreal PC, PS3, X360
Tom Clancy's Splinter Cell: Double Agent (multiplayer) Ubisoft Shanghai PC, X360
Tortuga: Two Treasures Ascaron Entertainment PC
Two Worlds Reality Pump PC
Ultra Tubes Eipix PC
Unreal Tournament 3 Epic Games PC, PS3, X360
Unreal Tournament 3: Extreme Physics Mod Epic Games PC
Warfare GFI Russia PC
Warmonger: Operation Downtown Destruction Net Devil PC
W.E.L.L. Online Sibilant Interactive PC
Winterheart's Guild Zelian Games PC, X360
WorldShift Black Sea Studios PC
 

solofly

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May 25, 2003
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Originally posted by: MarcVenice
Reason I didn't mention the drop in FPS is because in some of the benchmarks I've seen from keys is that even though FPS might go down, the games are still very much playable. IF game devs can find a good balance between graphics and physics it could actually be pretty cool, and I wouldn't care about having only 60fps vs 80fps which I would have without physics being run on my videocard.

Today's games, what about next years' and year after that. Today's video cards simply won't have the muscle to enjoy the games to the fullest.

 

Keysplayr

Elite Member
Jan 16, 2003
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Originally posted by: MarcVenice
@ keys, I didn't see your list untill later, and since we have to keep threads on topic I'm making a new one. First of, you know a whole lot more about videocards then I do, but I'm pretty confident I know a whole lot more about games then you do. I review them, so I'd like to think I've played most games worth playing 1. and that I know what's coming in the future.

Now, onto the list of games that can take advantage of Physx acceleration on the gpu, http://www.nzone.com/object/nzone_physxgames_home.html. I wanted to comment on each game, but it will simply take to long. First of all, half the games on that list are allready out. 2. They use physx, for ragdoll effects and a small matter of debri that can fly around, nothing stellar though. All those games run great, so why do we need physx acceleration for it?

3. Out of all the games that aren't out yet, only a few stand out as qaulity titles, being developed by well known developers. Games like Cryostasis, Sacred 2 and perhaps Worldshift. And perhaps there are a few diamonds in the rough. But I can't find one game that will be anything like UT3's tornado level or like Warmonger.

4. What I'm trying to say is, although your benchmarks from warmonger and a few other levels loaded with heavy physics, might need a nvidia videocard, there are no such games coming out in the forseeable future. I don't see any games that will make people go, oh wow, I should really by a nvidia videocard because I love that game. All the games on that list will run great without any physx hardware acceleration. Half of the games allready run great without hardware physx acceleration.

That's why physx is no big deal, yet. And trust me, I think Nvidia is on the right path, the fact that you can run an older card to do physx alongside a new videocard, on a non sli motherboard is great. And it's basicaly free, you're not losing anything. It's just that right now, it's not a big deal at all. Some physx elements, 5. like tearing cloth, and more realistic behavior of fluids is pretty cool, but then again, these are small elements, and I bet we won't need hardware capable of doing physx acceleration to play those games.

6. Fact is, when games like warmonger do start appearing, like many sites previewing the physx pack have mentioned, a lot of people with ATI videocards, or without ppu's, can't play it. That's probably why it will take some time for phyics acceleration on nvidia videocards to become a big deal. Also, although nivdia might have good relations with many developers and publishers, game development takes a pretty long time, they can't just throw some amazing physics in there, just like that. If developers start making a game right now, they might depend on physx more then 'older' titles, but those games won't be out for another year, year and a half.



Title edited to not call-out an individual member.

Video Mod BFG10K.

Ok Marc,
You don't think Physx is a big deal. Many others do. I'll address some bolded comments above, in order.

1. Did you know that UT3 Physx levels would exist before they were ever announced? Warmonger? GRAW2? Backbreaker? Nurien?

2. We also don't "need" AA and AF, but we like them and use them anyway because it makes the games "better" visually.

3. Physx is just really starting to emerge. Nvidia only aquired Ageia 6 months ago, and I'm sure Nvidia is working pretty hard to get all the
devs they can on board to support, and develop new games with Physx in mind, as well as adding/patching Physx to existing games. It's the beginning.
With Nvidia's dev relations, you can't say that games aren't being created as we speak with Physx akin to what we have seen in the above mentioned games.
I don't know why you would think there wouldn't be. That makes no sense to me.

4. See #3

5. Tearing cloth and fluids ARE only a smaller part. But from what I have seen, Physx goes way beyond that. Fully destructable environments (shoot out walls/barriers to expose enemies, or shoot a floor out from under them and see them fall) Weather conditions that effect gameplay (Severe wind, rain, hail).
The whole point of Physx is go take another step towards realism in games. If you're playing an old western style game for example, would you want to see the tumbleweed just roll by, or would you want to see it roll by, effected by the direction and intensity of the wind, and then get caught around a wagon wheel and crushed by it? Or even something like bouncing off of a fencepost. For gaming, that would be a pretty big deal.

6. Well, it's been said over and over again that Physx can be made to run on ATI GPU's. Lets see if that comes into fruition. I heard Nvidia is assisting NGO with this.

So basically, you wrote a blog here. This is something that should have been posted as an article somewhere. Nice read. ;)


 

SSChevy2001

Senior member
Jul 9, 2008
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Wreckage - nice list, but you mind going back to it and only posting the ones that support hardware physx.
 

CP5670

Diamond Member
Jun 24, 2004
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As far as UT3 is concerned, PhysX looks pointless to me. It only affects three maps that nobody plays online anyway, and the framerates I've seen in many of the PhysX reviews are lousy for this type of game. This is the last game where you would notice some physics effect in the middle of an intense fight, and I would take the increased framerate any day.

The concept may have more merit in other games. Still though, I'm not very interested in it if we continue to see the same kind of performance hits.
 

ajaidevsingh

Senior member
Mar 7, 2008
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Originally posted by: solofly
Originally posted by: MarcVenice
Reason I didn't mention the drop in FPS is because in some of the benchmarks I've seen from keys is that even though FPS might go down, the games are still very much playable. IF game devs can find a good balance between graphics and physics it could actually be pretty cool, and I wouldn't care about having only 60fps vs 80fps which I would have without physics being run on my videocard.

Today's games, what about next years' and year after that. Today's video cards simply won't have the muscle to enjoy the games to the fullest.

lol, see my post just one post above yours... I said the same thing!!!
 

apoppin

Lifer
Mar 9, 2000
34,890
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alienbabeltech.com
Originally posted by: Wreckage
Here's a list of games with Physx support

2 Days to Vegas Steel Monkeys PC
Adrenalin 2: Rush Hour Gaijin Entertainment PC
Age of Empires III Distineer Studios PC, Mac
Age of Empires III: The WarChiefs Distineer Studios Mac
Alpha Prime Black Element Software PC
Auto Assault Net Devil PC
Backbreaker Natural Motion TBA
B.A.S.E. Jumping Digital Dimension Development PC
Bet on Soldier: Blackout Saigon Kylotonn Entertainment PC
Bet on Soldier: Blood of Sahara Kylotonn Entertainment PC
Bet on Soldier: Blood Sport Kylotonn Entertainment PC
Beowulf Ubisoft PS3, X360
Bladestorm: The Hundred Years' War Koei PS3, X360
Captain Blood Akella PC, X360
Cellfactor: Combat Training Artifical Studios, Immersion Games PC
Cellfactor: Revolution Artifical Studios, Immersion Games PC
City of Villains Cryptic Studios PC
Crazy Machines II FAKT Software PC
Cryostasis Action Forms PC
Dark Physics The Game Creators PC
Desert Diner Tarsier Studios PC
Dragonshard Atari PC
Dusk 12 Orion PC
Empire Above All IceHill PC
Empire Earth III Mad Dog Software PC
Entropia Universe MindArk PC
Fallen Earth Icarus Studios PC
Fury Auran Games PC
Gears Of War Epic Games PC, X360
Gluk'Oza: Action GFI Russia PC
GooBall Ambrosia software Mac
Gothic 3 Piranha Bytes PC
Gunship Apocalypse FAKT Software PC
Heavy Rain Quantic Dream PC
Hero's Jorney Simutronics PC
Hour of Victory nFusion Interactive X360
Hunt, The Orion PC
Huxley Webzen, Inc PC, X360
Infernal Metropolis Software PC
Inhabited island: Prisoner of Power Orion PC
Joint Task Force Most Wanted Entertainment PC
Kuma\WAR Kuma Reality Games PC
Magic ball 3 Alawar Entertaiment PC
Mass Effect BioWare PC, X360
Medal of Honor: Airborne EA Los Angeles PC, X360
Metro 2033 4A Games PC
Mobile Suit Gundam: Crossfire BEC PS3
Monster Madness: Battle for Suburbia Artificial Studios PC, X360
Monster Truck Maniax Legendo Entertainment PC
Myst Online: URU Live Cyan Worlds PC
Open Fire BlueTorch Studios PC
Paragraph 78 Gaijin Entertainment PC
Pirates of the Burning Sea Flying Lab Software PC
PT Boats: Knights of the Sea Akella PC
Rail Simulator Kuju Entertainment Ltd PC
Red Steel Ubisoft Paris Wii
Rise Of Nations: Rise Of Legends Big Huge Games PC
Roboblitz Naked Sky Entertainment PC, X360
Sacred 2 ASCARON Entertainment PC
Sherlock Holmes: The Awakened Frogwares Game Development Studio PC
Showdown: Scorpion B-COOL Interactive PC
Silverfall Monte Cristo PC
Sovereign Symphony Ceidot Game Studios PC
Sonic and the Secret Rings SEGA Wii
Speedball 2 Kylotonn Entertainment PC
Stalin Subway, The Orion PC
Stoked Rider: Alaska Alien Bongfish Interactive Entertainment PC
Switchball Atomic Elbow PC
Tension Ice-pick Lodge PC
Tom Clancy's Ghost Recon Advanced Warfighter GRIN PC, X360
Tom Clancy's Ghost Recon Advanced Warfighter 2 GRIN, Ubisoft Paris PC, X360
Tom Clancy's Rainbow Six Vegas Ubisoft Montreal PC, PS3, X360
Tom Clancy's Splinter Cell: Double Agent (multiplayer) Ubisoft Shanghai PC, X360
Tortuga: Two Treasures Ascaron Entertainment PC
Two Worlds Reality Pump PC
Ultra Tubes Eipix PC
Unreal Tournament 3 Epic Games PC, PS3, X360
Unreal Tournament 3: Extreme Physics Mod Epic Games PC
Warfare GFI Russia PC
Warmonger: Operation Downtown Destruction Net Devil PC
W.E.L.L. Online Sibilant Interactive PC
Winterheart's Guild Zelian Games PC, X360
WorldShift Black Sea Studios PC

yes, really *look* at 'em

Many of them are old - and buggy like Gothic3; from '06 - some are older. A lot of them look to be SW physX titles. How many are exclusively Hardware PhysX titles that require a Nvidia GPU to run?

How many will play well when PhysX is implemented?

Finally, what confirmed AAA NEW PC titles are coming out in the next year that will implement Hardware PhysX?
- now that would be a useful list

i really don't care about games scheduled for mid-2009 .. the dates get less and less reliable, the further the Devs project for their release dates

 

Keysplayr

Elite Member
Jan 16, 2003
21,219
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Well, everyone has there own thoughts about it. That's normal.

As far as Physx eating up GPU muscle, I'm not so certain that it does. Don't get me wrong, the GPU has to render much more content when heavy Physx is used. More debris, crumbling buildings etc.. But last night, I tried running 2x9800GTX+'s. Not in SLI, but GPU1 rendering and GPU2 for Physx. There was an increase in framerate, but not staggering, which leads me to believe that Physx doesn't really take that much of a toll on shader power. I have some preliminary bench scores I will post in that dedicated thread in a short bit.
 

chizow

Diamond Member
Jun 26, 2001
9,537
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I'll throw out a few facts/tidbits I've picked up here and there, specific to PhysX or not:
  • Nvidia holds a dominant position in both the discrete GPU market (60:30%) and holds the same 2:1 advantage over ATI when including Intel and integrated graphics (35:18). These figures are readily available and updated quarterly and while RV770 is certainly more competitive than ATI has been in the previous 2 years, it won't change this significantly in the short-term.
  • Nvidia claims an installed user-base of 70 million GF 8 and 9 series cards as cited in the Tech Report PhysX preview. That is a HUGE number of PhysX/CUDA/GPGPU capable parts and directly focuses on the demographic that would appreciate physics the most: gamers. Of course some of these are going to be lower end parts, but from AMD's GAME!/Gamer's Alliance slides of 65 million enthusiast/mainstream cards and 90 million DX9+ cards, its not unreasonable to assume at least 40-50% of that number comprises high-end G80/G92 parts or better based on NV's 2:1 market dominance.
  • To put this 70 million/60% market share number in perspective, Creative makes EAX work and worthwhile with only a 10-15% market share (Steam survey), maybe 20% at most. At the end of the day, developers are gamers too and will spend the time and effort to make their games more enjoyable with features they want to see in games they play (and make).
  • Sentiments were similar this time last year regarding DX10 titles, with many claiming it was pointless as there were no games that supported it. I look at my titles now and DX10 is implemented, whether natively or retroactively, on 25-30% of them. In some games there is a drastic difference and in almost all of them, DX10 features also carry a significant performance hit. As long as performance is still good, I will always enable DX10 as the increased IQ can be significant.
  • As far as we know, PhysX is open standard so all software and hardware vendors should have accessability. Of course NV stands to profit and gain the most as any title featuring PhysX will also be emblazoned with the big green NV/PhysX logo. There's no doubt they're pushing their own brand and agenda, but who isn't? If ATI isn't willing to jump on board because they'll be promoting NV/CUDA and not themselves and OpenCL, then they better show something better. Otherwise they're basically giving their consumers the middle finger saying they'd rather not support something that would add value than support their rival.
If anyone has the clout and market presence to make physics work, its NV. They've already got a significant head-start on the competition with a proven hardware accelerated solution with a significant installed user-base. The only physics API that poses any threat is Havok, which isn't even a threat as its a software/CPU solution that will run on any existing and future CPU. This would be like comparing Miles3D to EAX5.

We've already seen significant proof of concept demos and games that show the benefits, now its up to Devs to put it in their games. Honestly the possibilities are limitless. Imagine cut-scenes or sequences that are never truly the same, as the actions on-screen will be different due to real-time physics calculations rather than AI/scripting.

NV's implementation is also excellent, as it enables the possibility of mixed and matched pairs of GPU for rendering and PhysX calculations. We'll see if this holds true for cross-vendor implementations but its already confirmed PhysX SLI is not chipset dependent.

 

SunnyD

Belgian Waffler
Jan 2, 2001
32,675
146
106
www.neftastic.com
Originally posted by: keysplayr2003
Well, everyone has there own thoughts about it. That's normal.

As far as Physx eating up GPU muscle, I'm not so certain that it does. Don't get me wrong, the GPU has to render much more content when heavy Physx is used. More debris, crumbling buildings etc.. But last night, I tried running 2x9800GTX+'s. Not in SLI, but GPU1 rendering and GPU2 for Physx. There was an increase in framerate, but not staggering, which leads me to believe that Physx doesn't really take that much of a toll on shader power. I have some preliminary bench scores I will post in that dedicated thread in a short bit.

See, this is an interesting statement. You ran 2 9800GTX+'s, and got an increase in framerate though ever so slight. However the the typical configuration will be a single GPU running both physics and graphics, and as your own benchmarks show it does indeed take a toll on the hardware with framerates dropping easily 25%.

The only thing that your post goes to show is that the PhysX implementation from NVIDIA does not do anything in terms of detail if the framerates are actually going up. If there is more happening on the screen, then I seriously doubt there's any additional detail showing up. It's probably indeed accelerating the details that are already there somewhat (hence the better frame rate), but other than that I seriously doubt any other benefit.
 

apoppin

Lifer
Mar 9, 2000
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alienbabeltech.com
You are forgetting one thing, chizow

Nvidia has made an enemy of Intel who also has much clout in gaming

and intel sees fit to join with AMD to implement Havok to compete with Nvidia

So .. PhysX is not a done deal. i suspect we will see either dual implementations of physics in PC gaming or be forced to choose.
- but i would not say "Nvidia wins" :p
 

Wreckage

Banned
Jul 1, 2005
5,529
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Originally posted by: apoppin

yes, really *look* at 'em

Many of them are old - and buggy like Gothic3; from '06 - some are older. A lot of them look to be SW physX titles. How many are exclusively Hardware PhysX titles that require a Nvidia GPU to run?

How many will play well when PhysX is implemented?

Finally, what confirmed AAA NEW PC titles are coming out in the next year that will implement Hardware PhysX?
- now that would be a useful list

i really don't care about games scheduled for mid-2009 .. the dates get less and less reliable, the further the Devs project for their release dates
How many do your video card support? Because that's clearly what it boils down to. Because ATI fails here and the fanboys are trying to downplay it.

This thread was flamebait from the start by calling out keys and it's clearly just sour grapes through out.

This was the same when ATI did not have SLI, SM3 and Purevideo etc.

Now they don't have Phyx and even though it's been proven to work and it supported in several games, the FUD spreaders are doing their best to do damage control.

:thumbsdown: