Why do we, as citizens, really need guns?

[jlee]

Originally posted by: Muse
Aside from hunting (could be regulated), it'd be self defense. But I think the statistics bear out the fact that you're around 20 times as likely to hurt yourself or someone who lives with you with a firearm than have the opportunity to exercise the self defense aspect. So I'm on the OP's side here.

Are you sure about that?

 

[fisheerman]

Three words for ya


KA
TRIN
A

nuff said.....end of debate....game over....move on

 

[Kelvrick]

Originally posted by: spidey07

Originally posted by: SlitheryDee

I wouldn't be surprised if the majority of the armed forces defected in the event of a revolt. It's likely that every single one of them would have family and friends among those who they were meant to suppress. Of course the people wouldn't be entirely united either. Even so, the administration would have as much luck going to war with the american people as a fish would have going to war with the water...unless the population were carefully managed and eventually disarmed in such a way as to make them think it was the right thing to do and they did it themselves.

I'm no conspiracy theorist though. I think democracy is working just fine and we really are legislating ourselves into slavery without even realizing it.

I have found that most all Military folks I talk to take their Oath VERY seriously. You are more correct than you think (they'd refuse unconstitutional orders against their own citizens).

Strange that thought. You would think so, but troops were used after Katrina. Interviews showed that many felt strange doing this on US soil, but they followed orders. Patton and his troops advanced on the "Bonus Army" of veterans protesting in Washington in 1932.

Of course, these instances are different from what we'd think of when we hear "revolutionary uprising," but it would probably take the balls the size we've only seen from our founding fathers to start.

 

[Bulk Beef]

That was MacArthur.

 

[spidey07]

Originally posted by: fisheerman
Three words for ya


KA
TRIN
A

nuff said.....end of debate....game over....move on

Very correct about that. That right there is a reason we, as Citizens, really need guns. Every place is just one power outage or act of mother nature away from total lawlessness.

 

[PrinceofWands]

Originally posted by: Muse
Aside from hunting (could be regulated), it'd be self defense. But I think the statistics bear out the fact that you're around 20 times as likely to hurt yourself or someone who lives with you with a firearm than have the opportunity to exercise the self defense aspect. So I'm on the OP's side here.

Nope, actually those stats (originating from Kellerman) are false, have been thoroughly debunked numerous times, and there is at least as much support now for the opposite argument. Of course those studies are similarly limited or flawed, so those should be grain of salted as well. Still, there is NO supportable evidence that there's an actual risk involved.

 

[PrinceofWands]

Originally posted by: spidey07

Originally posted by: SlitheryDee

I wouldn't be surprised if the majority of the armed forces defected in the event of a revolt. It's likely that every single one of them would have family and friends among those who they were meant to suppress. Of course the people wouldn't be entirely united either. Even so, the administration would have as much luck going to war with the american people as a fish would have going to war with the water...unless the population were carefully managed and eventually disarmed in such a way as to make them think it was the right thing to do and they did it themselves.

I'm no conspiracy theorist though. I think democracy is working just fine and we really are legislating ourselves into slavery without even realizing it.

I have found that most all Military folks I talk to take their Oath VERY seriously. You are more correct than you think (they'd refuse unconstitutional orders against their own citizens).

I know I would have...or I would have stayed only to undermine operations and assist the revolutionaries. A number of those around me made similar statements as well, and I was at a fairly top level command.

Now, they were willing to do reasonable things, as I would have been. Keep the peace against riots without merit, assist in natural disasters, etc.

 

[fisheerman]

Originally posted by: spidey07

Originally posted by: fisheerman
Three words for ya


KA
TRIN
A

nuff said.....end of debate....game over....move on

Very correct about that. That right there is a reason we, as Citizens, really need guns. Every place is just one power outage or act of mother nature away from total lawlessness.

Bingo we have a winner!

 

[ConstipatedVigilante]

It sickens me when people say that the Bill of Rights should be amended for a "modern society." Our society these days is more barbaric in many ways than in the 1700s. Urban centers are controlled by violent gangs and illegal drug trade, corruption is rampant in every level of government, and now the bleeding hearts are trying to take away our guns.

What some don't seem to realize is that the really dangerous criminals - the ones you need to shoot during a home invasion - don't think like the rest of us. They don't just want to take your stereo and leave - they want to rape your daughter and wife, kill all witnesses, then leave. THAT'S why we need guns - to defend ourselves against the people who don't see the purpose of society - as a loving, caring, group of people who want to watch out for one another - as we do.

Then there's the event that the government DOES need to be overthrown. Of course, this is the very right-wing side of the argument, but it's a large part of why the Founding Fathers created the 2nd Amendment. I hope that the government will not become a tyrannical military dictatorship in my lifetime, but we need to be able to fend for ourselves in the event that our social structure fails us. America was founded on the ideals of a bunch of people free to live as they wish, without oppression, and free to defend themselves. This is part of why the opinions of non-US citizens in this thread are mostly irrelevant - you were not brought up with the ideals of America, and you have no loyalty to them.

Now I'm going to go conquer Europe in Medieval 2. Have fun with the flamewar.

Edit: Others have also expressed the need to defend ourselves against a foreign attack on our soil. This is ANOTHER reason why the amendment was created. Any invader would have a fuck of a hard time taking over when so many Americans own guns.

 

[Kelvrick]

Originally posted by: Bulk Beef
That was MacArthur.

Yea, Gen MacArthur was in command, but Patton (major at the time) was part of it.

 

[sourceninja]

Originally posted by: nerp
Reading this thread, I've come to the conclusion that many ATOT members are delusional paranoid whackjobs who watch too much TV and seen way too many movies. Where the fuck do you live that you need to worry about a home invasion? Your own stats you barf out about cars being more dangerous proves my point -- you're living in fear of a wholly unrealisitc view of the world. Home invasions rarely happen and most burglars don't carry weapons (being busted for B&E is easier to deal with than armed robbery) and are scared off and go running as soon as they hear a cough or th lights go on. Second, burglars tend to hit houses when you're on vacation or away. Thus, your trusty gun is more likely to be stolen during a break-in than actually used.

Where the hell do you all live? Kabul? Life must suck living in such a state of fear that you'd be willing to risk the lives of your family with a weapon in the house.

I live in a well to do area with very low crime. That said, we did have 3 reported cases of break ins at night that were discovered by people sleeping in that house. All it would of took was for one of those guys to be desperate enough to rape or kill to make a very bad news story. Luckily the criminals have ran. One county over however is the lowest unemployment in the region (Elkhart County, IN). Every morning for the last 2 months I've heard of at least one murder and most often not with a gun. Low economy breed crime.

I also sometimes have to drive to areas with rising crime. Detroit, Gary, even areas that are growing into bad areas where my grandparents lived their whole lives. There are areas in South Bend, IN I wouldn't be comfortable walking in as a white male. All of these are all around my well to do suburb with nice houses and white picket fences. Cops are few and far between out here in the county, so a police call is a 10-15 minute response time.

Is it really paranoid to keep a small tool for safety on you when out in public? To get a few firearms in the home for easy defense? It makes me feel better to go on a trip knowing my wife has mace on her keychain, a shotgun in a walk in lockable closet, and if need be a pistol. It makes me feel better to know she is properly instructed and trained on the use of all the weapons in my house.

I don't tell her, go kill the mother F*cker!. I tell her, if you hear a noise that isn't normal, go to the closet, lock the door, grab the shotgun and load it up (or the AR-15 with 65 grain hollow point, or the XD 40, whatever she can get to first). Then sit with your back to the wall and your gun pointed at that door and call the police. If anyone opens that door just shoot until you run out of ammo. I really don't care if they take my TV's and 360's if she lives.

But it is comforting to know that should I find myself in a tough spot that i have the training and the tools to insure my own safety without relying on help that may never come. Unarmed I am a brown belt in judo, blue belt in BJJ, and a black belt in TKD (plus some Mauy Thai and boxing training). Armed I have a permit to carry and put in at least 8 hours a month at the range. I have also gone though training and courses on the use of my firearm in high stress situations including training in how to remain in control of my weapon.

I don't conceder this any different then keeping a first-aid kit, blanket, and flare in my car or a fire steel equipped knife and multi tool in my laptop bag. I was brought up to be self sufficient and take responsibility for myself. I think I am doing a good job AND having fun at the same time.

I also have no idea how guns are risking the lives of me or my wife. I guess a house fire could burn into my fireproof safe and ignite my ammo causing bullets to go flying around my basement?

 

[jlee]

Originally posted by: nerp
Reading this thread, I've come to the conclusion that many ATOT members are delusional paranoid whackjobs who watch too much TV and seen way too many movies. Where the fuck do you live that you need to worry about a home invasion? Your own stats you barf out about cars being more dangerous proves my point -- you're living in fear of a wholly unrealisitc view of the world. Home invasions rarely happen and most burglars don't carry weapons (being busted for B&E is easier to deal with than armed robbery) and are scared off and go running as soon as they hear a cough or th lights go on. Second, burglars tend to hit houses when you're on vacation or away. Thus, your trusty gun is more likely to be stolen during a break-in than actually used.

Where the hell do you all live? Kabul? Life must suck living in such a state of fear that you'd be willing to risk the lives of your family with a weapon in the house.

You are naive.

Maybe you're not competent enough with a firearm to avoid shooting yourself or your family members.

 

[FDF12389]

Its easy to say "how often does that relly happen to peopel" Until you are one of those people, I am. I do not like having a gun in my face, and I feel more comfortable be able to protect those I love and what is mine.

I value mine, and my fellow Americans right more than that of anyone who tries to take them away, you'll kill me before you will strip those rights from me.

 

[nerp]

If pro gun people really believe that owning guns is important to prevent the government from corrupting enable the public to cause a revolution if necessary, they aught to get rid of their guns and invest in some predator drones because that's what they're up against if the time comes to that.

 

[nerp]

Originally posted by: JLee

Originally posted by: nerp
Reading this thread, I've come to the conclusion that many ATOT members are delusional paranoid whackjobs who watch too much TV and seen way too many movies. Where the fuck do you live that you need to worry about a home invasion? Your own stats you barf out about cars being more dangerous proves my point -- you're living in fear of a wholly unrealisitc view of the world. Home invasions rarely happen and most burglars don't carry weapons (being busted for B&E is easier to deal with than armed robbery) and are scared off and go running as soon as they hear a cough or th lights go on. Second, burglars tend to hit houses when you're on vacation or away. Thus, your trusty gun is more likely to be stolen during a break-in than actually used.

Where the hell do you all live? Kabul? Life must suck living in such a state of fear that you'd be willing to risk the lives of your family with a weapon in the house.

You are naive.

Maybe you're not competent enough with a firearm to avoid shooting yourself or your family members.

NRA link? C'mon. Try covering a crime beat for five years. You quickly find out that when guns go off, it's either an accident, suicide, or a targeted hit.

Sure, I have a fire extinguisher in my home in case of a fire. The difference is that my fire extinguisher is not efficient at killing.

 

[FDF12389]

Originally posted by: nerp
If pro gun people really believe that owning guns is important to prevent the government from corrupting enable the public to cause a revolution if necessary, they aught to get rid of their guns and invest in some predator drones because that's what they're up against if the time comes to that.

Yes, because reconnaissance is extremely important when everyone knows where are domestic bases are already......

You're clueless.

 

[nerp]

Originally posted by: FDF12389

Originally posted by: nerp
If pro gun people really believe that owning guns is important to prevent the government from corrupting enable the public to cause a revolution if necessary, they aught to get rid of their guns and invest in some predator drones because that's what they're up against if the time comes to that.

Yes, because reconnaissance is extremely important when everyone knows where are domestic bases are already......

You're clueless.

I'd be clueless if I thought my guns could counter the military might of the United States. The only way to overthrow the government in this country is to choke it to death by not paying taxes. Then you'd have fun with your guns when the infrastructure crumbles. And good luck getting everyone to go along with that idea.

 

[jlee]

Originally posted by: nerp

Originally posted by: JLee

Originally posted by: nerp
Reading this thread, I've come to the conclusion that many ATOT members are delusional paranoid whackjobs who watch too much TV and seen way too many movies. Where the fuck do you live that you need to worry about a home invasion? Your own stats you barf out about cars being more dangerous proves my point -- you're living in fear of a wholly unrealisitc view of the world. Home invasions rarely happen and most burglars don't carry weapons (being busted for B&E is easier to deal with than armed robbery) and are scared off and go running as soon as they hear a cough or th lights go on. Second, burglars tend to hit houses when you're on vacation or away. Thus, your trusty gun is more likely to be stolen during a break-in than actually used.

Where the hell do you all live? Kabul? Life must suck living in such a state of fear that you'd be willing to risk the lives of your family with a weapon in the house.

You are naive.

Maybe you're not competent enough with a firearm to avoid shooting yourself or your family members.

NRA link? C'mon. Try covering a crime beat for five years. You quickly find out that when guns go off, it's either an accident, suicide, or a targeted hit.

Sure, I have a fire extinguisher in my home in case of a fire. The difference is that my fire extinguisher is not efficient at killing.

NRA link which covers news articles. Did you bother to look?

 

[nerp]

Originally posted by: JLee

Originally posted by: nerp

Originally posted by: JLee

Originally posted by: nerp
Reading this thread, I've come to the conclusion that many ATOT members are delusional paranoid whackjobs who watch too much TV and seen way too many movies. Where the fuck do you live that you need to worry about a home invasion? Your own stats you barf out about cars being more dangerous proves my point -- you're living in fear of a wholly unrealisitc view of the world. Home invasions rarely happen and most burglars don't carry weapons (being busted for B&E is easier to deal with than armed robbery) and are scared off and go running as soon as they hear a cough or th lights go on. Second, burglars tend to hit houses when you're on vacation or away. Thus, your trusty gun is more likely to be stolen during a break-in than actually used.

Where the hell do you all live? Kabul? Life must suck living in such a state of fear that you'd be willing to risk the lives of your family with a weapon in the house.

You are naive.

Maybe you're not competent enough with a firearm to avoid shooting yourself or your family members.

NRA link? C'mon. Try covering a crime beat for five years. You quickly find out that when guns go off, it's either an accident, suicide, or a targeted hit.

Sure, I have a fire extinguisher in my home in case of a fire. The difference is that my fire extinguisher is not efficient at killing.

NRA link which covers news articles. Did you bother to look?

A source that cherry picks is not a *good source.

Federal crime statistics compiled into organized form would be better.

 

[jlee]

Originally posted by: nerp

Originally posted by: JLee

Originally posted by: nerp

Originally posted by: JLee

Originally posted by: nerp
Reading this thread, I've come to the conclusion that many ATOT members are delusional paranoid whackjobs who watch too much TV and seen way too many movies. Where the fuck do you live that you need to worry about a home invasion? Your own stats you barf out about cars being more dangerous proves my point -- you're living in fear of a wholly unrealisitc view of the world. Home invasions rarely happen and most burglars don't carry weapons (being busted for B&E is easier to deal with than armed robbery) and are scared off and go running as soon as they hear a cough or th lights go on. Second, burglars tend to hit houses when you're on vacation or away. Thus, your trusty gun is more likely to be stolen during a break-in than actually used.

Where the hell do you all live? Kabul? Life must suck living in such a state of fear that you'd be willing to risk the lives of your family with a weapon in the house.

You are naive.

Maybe you're not competent enough with a firearm to avoid shooting yourself or your family members.

NRA link? C'mon. Try covering a crime beat for five years. You quickly find out that when guns go off, it's either an accident, suicide, or a targeted hit.

Sure, I have a fire extinguisher in my home in case of a fire. The difference is that my fire extinguisher is not efficient at killing.

NRA link which covers news articles. Did you bother to look?

A source that cherry picks is not a source.

Yes, it is. What's the difference if I find a news article via Google or find a news article via the Armed Citizen column?

Just because you think people don't use guns for defense doesn't mean they don't.

You also have a mistaken belief that in order for a gun to be used defensively, it must actually be fired. You are simply incorrect. If you break into my house and you stare down a shotgun barrel, then decide you'd rather give up then lose your head..., I don't shoot- but that doesn't make it any less effective.

 

[FDF12389]

Originally posted by: nerp

Originally posted by: FDF12389

Originally posted by: nerp
If pro gun people really believe that owning guns is important to prevent the government from corrupting enable the public to cause a revolution if necessary, they aught to get rid of their guns and invest in some predator drones because that's what they're up against if the time comes to that.

Yes, because reconnaissance is extremely important when everyone knows where are domestic bases are already......

You're clueless.

I'd be clueless if I thought my guns could counter the military might of the United States. The only way to overthrow the government in this country is to choke it to death by not paying taxes. Then you'd have fun with your guns when the infrastructure crumbles. And good luck getting everyone to go along with that idea.

lol

You go ahead and not pay taxes, then when they come to take your family to jail use your squirt gun.

 

[FDF12389]

Originally posted by: nerp

Originally posted by: FDF12389

Originally posted by: nerp
If pro gun people really believe that owning guns is important to prevent the government from corrupting enable the public to cause a revolution if necessary, they aught to get rid of their guns and invest in some predator drones because that's what they're up against if the time comes to that.

Yes, because reconnaissance is extremely important when everyone knows where are domestic bases are already......

You're clueless.

I'd be clueless if I thought my guns could counter the military might of the United States. The only way to overthrow the government in this country is to choke it to death by not paying taxes. Then you'd have fun with your guns when the infrastructure crumbles. And good luck getting everyone to go along with that idea.

Further more, the US Military could be countered, I suggest you read a little on warfare before coming in here again.

 

[CKent]

Originally posted by: nerp
Reading this thread, I've come to the conclusion that many ATOT members are delusional paranoid whackjobs who watch too much TV and seen way too many movies. Where the fuck do you live that you need to worry about a home invasion? Your own stats you barf out about cars being more dangerous proves my point -- you're living in fear of a wholly unrealisitc view of the world. Home invasions rarely happen and most burglars don't carry weapons (being busted for B&E is easier to deal with than armed robbery) and are scared off and go running as soon as they hear a cough or th lights go on. Second, burglars tend to hit houses when you're on vacation or away. Thus, your trusty gun is more likely to be stolen during a break-in than actually used.

Where the hell do you all live? Kabul? Life must suck living in such a state of fear that you'd be willing to risk the lives of your family with a weapon in the house.

I live in NY, have never owned nor fired a gun and never plan to. I support the second amendment because once you start taking away some freedoms the rest will follow.

If your life is so devoid of entertainment that you care what others do when it doesn't affect you, get a fucking hobby.

 

[Trigeek]

Originally posted by: hiromizu

Originally posted by: racolvin

Originally posted by: hiromizu

Originally posted by: spidey07
To kill people or animals, that's why. Or for just plain fun.

Which according to some includes the two.

There's really no need for guns in society. Only the police or other law enforcement officers should carry them - and use them as sparingly as possible. A voice of reason goes a long way.

Oh please ...

The whole point of the "Right To Bear Arms" is and an armed populace is able to defend itself against an oppressive government. The poor schlubs who wrote the Constitution believed that armed rebellion is a perfectly viable way for the citizenry to force a government to either correct itself or to replace that government with one that is more friendly to their citizens.

Hunting and home protection are fine reasons to own a gun but the real reason that right is enshrined in the Constitution is keeping the politicians on their toes.

Sure, you guys go ahead and defend yourself against a government army. There's only a slight chance that they might win.

The constitution can and should be amended to reflect the needs of a modern society. This country would be a much more pleasant place to stay if we didn't have these idiot pro-gun wackos.

 

[Trigeek]

If you would really like gun control move to australia they banned all firearms a couple years ago. It seems that their crime rate and murder rate actually went up....just saying.