Why do people 'feel sorry' for drug users? What ever happend to personal freaking choice and responsibility?

[Amused]

Originally posted by: Geekbabe
Addiction is a medical illness just like diabetes or cancer. Treatment programs hold addicts responsible for following their plan of care... but they don't seek to blame them,shame them for the addiction itself.

That is a distinction that must be understood.

I can, and have kicked addiction by myself just by taking responsibility for my actions and making the choice to stop.

I would not have been able to do that with cancer or diabetes.

Addiction is not a disease. I realize that the idea it is a disease is now as strong as a religion. I wont argue the point any more because I like you guys and I don't want to alienate you.

I will concede that some people with OTHER diseases (both mental and physical) may be more likely to turn to drugs in the first place. But, in the end, drugs are a choice and responsibility issue. Not a disease or illness.

And to be honest? Shame went a LONG way towards making me quit. Shame is a GREAT tool. Too bad the PC feel-good folks have taken shame out of the equation in society.

 

[Zanix]

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: jvarszegi

Originally posted by: Amused
For the record, I freebased (high quality crack).

At any rate, medical detox is a great idea. But the whole concept of telling people it's not their fault and that they have a "disease" just sets them up to fail. And that is what 90+% of the programs are all about, including all 12 step farces.

Yep, I totally agree about treatment methods. However, the original post was about feeling sorry for addicts. I can't help thinking of it like this: if someone were stuck in quicksand, and were too weak to get out under their own steam, you'd try to help them. If they succumbed despite your best efforts, you'd feel sorry for them. I think that many addicts really would like to quit, but they're trapped and don't have whatever it takes (which definitely includes strength of will).

I can also understand the opposite position, though; there's a long history in our culture of thinking about screwed-up brains and thought patterns in a different moral context from screwed-up bodies. Most people don't feel sorry for serial killers, for instance.

Ah, but drugs users are not serial killers. Serial killers repeatedly commit murder. A drug user (simply by the act of doing drugs) has not harmed anyone. Now, some people would argue that a drug user has not harmed anyone... yet. But that argument is no different than wanting to outlaw guns. There is no logical or statistical proof that the drug user will ever harm anyone ever. Simple a small probability, not much more than non-drug users (speaking of serial killers, most don't do drugs).

The biggest issue with the drug war is that very few people seem to be to see past the propaganda (and pardon me, neither can you, or you would not have compared a drug user to a serial killer, an absolutely ridiculous comparison if looked at logically). Let's say a man comes home from work every single day of his adult life and drinks 2 beers. He self-administers the relatively small amount alcohol to himself in the privacy of his own home and stays within his house. He does well at his job, and he raises his family properly, even putting his kids through college. But he drinks 2 beers every day. Is this man an addict? An alcoholic? No, not even a problem drinker.
Now substitute 2 beers with 2 bong hits. It all changes, doesn't it? Why? One word: propaganda.

Cmon.. you and I both know that people who smoke the evil weed are unkempt, dredlock wearing hippies. People who drink the Fermented foul-water just have bellies. *collects broken sarcasim meter parts*

 

[jvarszegi]

Originally posted by: Amused

Originally posted by: Geekbabe
Addiction is a medical illness just like diabetes or cancer. Treatment programs hold addicts responsible for following their plan of care... but they don't seek to blame them,shame them for the addiction itself.

That is a distinction that must be understood.

I can, and have kicked addiction by myself just by taking responsibility for my actions and making the choice to stop.

I would not have been able to do that with cancer or diabetes.

Addiction is not a disease. I realize that the idea it is a disease is now as strong as a religion. I wont argue the point any more because I like you guys and I don't want to alienate you.

I will concede that some people with OTHER diseases (both mental and physical) may be more likely to turn to drugs in the first place. But, in the end, drugs are a choice and responsibility issue. Not a disease or illness.

And to be honest? Shame went a LONG way towards making me quit. Shame is a GREAT tool. Too bad the PC feel-good folks have taken shame out of the equation in society.

Again, I agree with most of what you say, although I'm not so sure that addiction shouldn't be considered a disease. It physically and chemically changes your body; it can be demonstrated in lower animals (none of which are assumed to operate in a moral context); etc.

I hate medicalization, I'm just not sure that the concept applies here.

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: jvarszegi
You need to work on reading comprehension and thought skills, Vic. What I did with my second paragraph was gently explain the thought process that gets people to the opposite position. Also, the only link I drew between drug addicts and serial killers was that they both have "screwed-up... thought patterns", which they do.

You take cream and sugar with your coffee?

 

[tranceport]

Originally posted by: episodic
I'll feel sorry for a drug user when the dealers break into their houses and strap them down and dope em up. . . till then. . . no way

What is up with feeling sorry for them?

I never feel sorry for them.. I'm always like "that dumb@ss"

 

[Red Dawn]

Originally posted by: Amused

Originally posted by: Geekbabe
Addiction is a medical illness just like diabetes or cancer. Treatment programs hold addicts responsible for following their plan of care... but they don't seek to blame them,shame them for the addiction itself.

That is a distinction that must be understood.

I can, and have kicked addiction by myself just by taking responsibility for my actions and making the choice to stop.

I would not have been able to do that with cancer or diabetes.

Addiction is not a disease. I realize that the idea it is a disease is now as strong as a religion. I wont argue the point any more because I like you guys and I don't want to alienate you.

I will concede that some people with OTHER diseases (both mental and physical) may be more likely to turn to drugs in the first place. But, in the end, drugs are a choice and responsibility issue. Not a disease or illness.

And to be honest? Shame went a LONG way towards making me quit. Shame is a GREAT tool. Too bad the PC feel-good folks have taken shame out of the equation in society.

Yeah right, you show me one addict who is not ashamed of his situation. Shame shouldn't prevent someone from seeking help.

You should know better than to hold others up to your standards. I'm not going to go into it as it would just give you a swelled head but most people aren't like you!

 

[jvarszegi]

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: jvarszegi
You need to work on reading comprehension and thought skills, Vic. What I did with my second paragraph was gently explain the thought process that gets people to the opposite position. Also, the only link I drew between drug addicts and serial killers was that they both have "screwed-up... thought patterns", which they do.

You take cream and sugar with your coffee?

If that's a request for an apology, I have to respectfully decline. You misinterpreted my words, which is okay, but then you followed up by claiming I'm a victim of propaganda, which I never am. I think for myself! Anyway, now I'll potter off to the kitchen and make myself a cup of coffee, with milk and sugar.

 

[Eli]

Originally posted by: tami

Originally posted by: Geekbabe
Have you ever actually known somebody suffering with any sort of addiction?

I firmly believe that nobody deliberately sets out to ruin their lives or destroy their families,nobody!

Most addicts are dually diagnosed people, when they come into the hospital and complete detox, we then see the depression/mood disorder that's in many cases been untreated and tormenting them for years.

Treatment works and is an excellent investment !

but on the other hand, everyone knows that drugs are bad. trying it is a step towards a harmful future, especially if an addiction will result.

that's why i've never tried drugs or cigarettes in my entire life, and trust me, i've been pressured to do so before.

That's just the thing though.

Not all drugs are bad, it's only if you get addicted to them. And even then, it's a huge grey area. I'm most certainly addicted to caffeine. Is it bad? No.

Not everybody gets addicted. For every alcoholic, how many are there that drink responsibly?

Obviously when you get to drugs like heroin and meth, things get a little more grey.. them being so powerful and all.

But that isn't the point. You can't save people from themselves. Clearly, saying "they're bad" and making them against the law doesen't work. Just face it. It's as simple as that. It doesen't work.

If we want to address drug use, we need to address the reason people use drugs. The real reason. Sometimes, otherwise normal people just get messed up in the wrong sh!t, like Amused. Those people are the most likely to pull themselves out of it, as he did.

But it's a whole 'nother ballgame when you're an addict. That's the "disease". It's much the same as cancer or any other disease, except... we percieve it differently, because there is nothing to "see". We can't see the wiring in our brains. It's hard for most people to even visualize, let alone science actually figuring it all out on an atomic level.

So what causes people to be prone to becomming addicts? Lots of things, most of them generally not good. Abuse is a big one.. trauma, etc. Something that makes you want to "forget" reality, or at least makes it seem easier to deal with.

The key is education. And not stupid bullsh!t lies and propaganda like DARE. Yes, drugs are bad, but what about everything else? Kids are curious. If you tell them something is bad, and then don't truthfully tell them why.. what do you think that is going to do? Backfire.

Oh well, we'll figure it out eventually. Just think of all the wasted billions.. bah.

Just look at The Netherlands. Everything is legal there. Has drug use gone up? Quite the contrary, the trend is down, although there are exceptions.

Licit and Illicit drug use in Amsterdam, 1987 to 2001 (PDF)

Shrug. Just some thoughts.

 

[Geekbabe]

Wow, people who are ill and killing themselves on the installment plan actually receive help
from other humans and many of them go on to being productive,useful members of society who help
others.What a horrible thing, we must kick and shame those addicts, let's make em feel even lower
than they already do, it'll help ME to feel bwetter about myself and we all know that ME
is what it's all about don't we?

Too bad we don't have 12 step programs for those suffering mega attacks of moral indignation and outrage,they'd be packed to the rafters.


I'm not much in terms of the ATOT scale of success, I'm not really smart, I'm not hot, I have no money but I have truly HELPED some suffering addicts in my professional lifetime and imho there are few things more worthwhile and gratifying to see than a person making a good recovery.Treatment doesn't just help the addict, it helps their spouse,their kids,grandkids, their employer, their neighbors, their community,it helps us all !

Some of you so seriously lack in empathy that it's frightening to consider.

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: jvarszegi

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: jvarszegi
You need to work on reading comprehension and thought skills, Vic. What I did with my second paragraph was gently explain the thought process that gets people to the opposite position. Also, the only link I drew between drug addicts and serial killers was that they both have "screwed-up... thought patterns", which they do.

You take cream and sugar with your coffee?

If that's a request for an apology, I have to respectfully decline. You misinterpreted my words, which is okay, but then you followed up by claiming I'm a victim of propaganda, which I never am. I think for myself! Anyway, now I'll potter off to the kitchen and make myself a cup of coffee, with milk and sugar.

LOL touche 😀

 

[Orsorum]

Originally posted by: Red Dawn
I feel empathy for all who have lost their way. That doesn't mean that they should be excused for their transgressions but I also don't believe they should just be tossed aside either. There are many who were addicts who have been rehabilitated and are now productive members of society.

:thumbsup:

 

[Amused]

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

Yeah right, you show me one addict who is not ashamed of his situation. Shame shouldn't prevent someone from seeking help.

You should know better than to hold others up to your standards. I'm not going to go into it as it would just give you a swelled head but most people aren't like you!

Red, I really don't think I'm anything special. Far from it.

Shame is a powerful tool. Not to keep people from getting help, if help is what they need, but to make people make the right choices in their life. If shame drives them to get help, good! In my opinion, the opposite of shame is enabling.

I believe some treatments are as much enablers as they are "treatments."

And it appears I've pissed Geekbabe off, which was not my intention at all.

Geekbabe, I have plenty of empathy. I have been there. How much more empathy could you want me to have?

I do not disagree with helping people. I disagree with calling it a "disease" and telling people it's not their fault they can't stop. Stopping is a choice. It is as simple as that. But for some people, the most simple things are the hardest to do.

 

[Eli]

Originally posted by: Amused

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

Yeah right, you show me one addict who is not ashamed of his situation. Shame shouldn't prevent someone from seeking help.

You should know better than to hold others up to your standards. I'm not going to go into it as it would just give you a swelled head but most people aren't like you!

Red, I really don't think I'm anything special. Far from it.

Shame is a powerful tool. Not to keep people from getting help, if help is what they need, but to make people make the right choices in their life. If shame drives them to get help, good! In my opinion, the opposite of shame is enabling.

I believe some treatments are as much enablers as they are "treatments."

And it appears I've pissed Geekbabe off, which was not my intention at all.

Geekbabe, I have plenty of empathy. I have been there. How much more empathy could you want me to have?

I do not disagree with helping people. I disagree with calling it a "disease" and telling people it's not their fault they can't stop. Stopping is a choice. It is as simple as that. But for some people, the most simple things are the hardest to do.

Ah, I see.

It is hard for you to understand, I think. I don't believe you were truely addicted. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong though. And then, our perceptions of what "truely addicted" means may differ.... so, the chances of anybody actually understanding eachother is pretty nill.

oh well.

Anyway, it was a choice for you, but obviously for many others it isn't. You would like it to be that simple, but it's not. Just put yourself in others' shoes.....

Who are you to say that a chemical imbalance or "crossed wires" isn't a disease? IF such things exist, I do believe they would be classified as a disease. We know they exist, we just haven't been able to actually understand it in a tangible form.

 

[Red Dawn]

Originally posted by: Amused

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

Yeah right, you show me one addict who is not ashamed of his situation. Shame shouldn't prevent someone from seeking help.

You should know better than to hold others up to your standards. I'm not going to go into it as it would just give you a swelled head but most people aren't like you!

Red, I really don't think I'm anything special. Far from it.

Shame is a powerful tool. Not to keep people from getting help, if help is what they need, but to make people make the right choices in their life. If shame drives them to get help, good! In my opinion, the opposite of shame is enabling.

I believe some treatments are as much enablers as they are "treatments."

And it appears I've pissed Geekbabe off, which was not my intention at all.

She's not pissed. She use to work with them in treatment centers so she is just expressing her educated opinion on the subject. Being an Addict doesn't make one an expert on how to treat addicts.

Geekbabe, I have plenty of empathy. I have been there. How much more empathy could you want me to have?

I do not disagree with helping people. I disagree with calling it a "disease" and telling people it's not their fault they can't stop. Stopping is a choice. It is as simple as that. But for some people, the most simple things are the hardest to do.

So we are just talking about the use of the term "Disease". I believe it is a disease albeit a self inflicted disease. How smart is it to inflict yourself with a disease? Pretty stupid if you ask me. Being stupid is plentyreason to be ashamed especially if you knew better. OK it's been determined that these people were shamefully stupid to inflict themselves with a disease. Now let's go about treating them and see if we can help them get their lives back and save them from their stupidity.

 

[EyeMWing]

What ever happend to personal freaking choice and responsibility?

The nineties.

 

[tec699]

There are a multitude of reasons why people get addicted to drugs. Maybe they were abused as children? Maybe it's the poverty and the crime that plaques their lives on a daily basis. Maybe they tried using drugs when they were much younger and now the drug use has grown to an addiction. There are many reasons why people abuse drugs and to say that they are all idiots is pretty ignorant. You have no idea of what their life is about and why they abuse drugs.

Anyway, people that do drugs drain our economy. It's better if these people get the help needed so they can contribute to society.

 

[aircooled]

Why do people 'feel sorry' for drug users? What ever happend to personal freaking choice and responsibility?

because I know what it's like to lay in bed having convolutions and near seizures when I tried to quit. because I know that ceasing to use a deadly drug may also kill me when I go into DT's (Delirium Tremens). Because I have been there, and I see my friends and colleges do the same thing with alcohol every day. Thats why.

 

[Amused]

Eli, I was "truly" addicted. It destroyed my whole life and alienated everyone in it. It consumed me.

And I don't think anyone can argue that my 15+ year nicotine addiction was not a "true" addiction. It was every bit as hard, if not harder to quit than the coke.

 

[vi edit]

I think addiction is a disease in the sense that some people are born with or develop a personality type that makes it easy to crave more and more of something and makes it harder and harder to remove yourself from it.

This can take place in many forms - over eating, sexual addiction, alcoholism, drug addiction, ect. It's the reason that some people can cut things cold turkey and never look back and some people never can kick a habit.

You can use it as an excuse for your problems or you can accept the fact that you have that type of personality and take the steps you need to overcome it. For things like drugs and alcohol the only way to really "cure" yourself is complete abstinence from them.

Different people require different types of stimuli to realize they have a problem.

 

[Kipper]

Originally posted by: tec699
There are a multitude of reasons why people get addicted to drugs. Maybe they were abused as children? Maybe it's the poverty and the crime that plaques their lives on a daily basis. Maybe they tried using drugs when they were much younger and now the drug use has grown to an addiction. There are many reasons why people abuse drugs and to say that they are all idiots is pretty ignorant. You have no idea of what their life is about and why they abuse drugs.

Anyway, people that do drugs drain our economy. It's better if these people get the help needed so they can contribute to society.

I really don't think drug users are "draining" the economy. These are just buzzwords, like Clinton going off on unwed teenage mothers being a "threat to society" or whatever. A "drain" on the economy almost suggests like drug users are single-handedly causing a recession, which they aren't. EVERY single society has always had its outcasts, its problems. Drug users are nothing new.

 

[Geekbabe]

Originally posted by: Amused

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

Yeah right, you show me one addict who is not ashamed of his situation. Shame shouldn't prevent someone from seeking help.

You should know better than to hold others up to your standards. I'm not going to go into it as it would just give you a swelled head but most people aren't like you!

Red, I really don't think I'm anything special. Far from it.

Shame is a powerful tool. Not to keep people from getting help, if help is what they need, but to make people make the right choices in their life. If shame drives them to get help, good! In my opinion, the opposite of shame is enabling.

I believe some treatments are as much enablers as they are "treatments."

And it appears I've pissed Geekbabe off, which was not my intention at all.

Geekbabe, I have plenty of empathy. I have been there. How much more empathy could you want me to have?

I do not disagree with helping people. I disagree with calling it a "disease" and telling people it's not their fault they can't stop. Stopping is a choice. It is as simple as that. But for some people, the most simple things are the hardest to do.

For many addicts their "shame" is deep,pervasive and existed long before they touched a drink or a drug.

The potential for addiction runs in families, it also is co-commintant with mood diosorders which also run in families.Many addicts have had horrific childhoods.Hard to pull oneself up by your boot straps when all you've ever heard was what a worthless,no good POS you were.Many addicts drink/drug to drown out those feelings, for many of them getting into treatment marks the 1st time another person actively wanted to assist them and not just exploit them sexually or use them to push drugs or to beat or to verbally abuse them.

To see another person finally understand that they personally are WORTH the effort it takes to get clean, to see people exhibiting human dignity when they didn't have it before..

treatment wotrks and in the end it helps us all.

 

[jvarszegi]

Originally posted by: MadCowDisease

Originally posted by: tec699
There are a multitude of reasons why people get addicted to drugs. Maybe they were abused as children? Maybe it's the poverty and the crime that plaques their lives on a daily basis. Maybe they tried using drugs when they were much younger and now the drug use has grown to an addiction. There are many reasons why people abuse drugs and to say that they are all idiots is pretty ignorant. You have no idea of what their life is about and why they abuse drugs.

Anyway, people that do drugs drain our economy. It's better if these people get the help needed so they can contribute to society.

I really don't think drug users are "draining" the economy. These are just buzzwords, like Clinton going off on unwed teenage mothers being a "threat to society" or whatever. A "drain" on the economy almost suggests like drug users are single-handedly causing a recession, which they aren't. EVERY single society has always had its outcasts, its problems. Drug users are nothing new.

He didn't say "bleeding it dry".

 

[xirtam]

It's my personal freaking choice to feel sorry for them.

 

[Amused]

Originally posted by: Geekbabe

Originally posted by: Amused

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

Yeah right, you show me one addict who is not ashamed of his situation. Shame shouldn't prevent someone from seeking help.

You should know better than to hold others up to your standards. I'm not going to go into it as it would just give you a swelled head but most people aren't like you!

Red, I really don't think I'm anything special. Far from it.

Shame is a powerful tool. Not to keep people from getting help, if help is what they need, but to make people make the right choices in their life. If shame drives them to get help, good! In my opinion, the opposite of shame is enabling.

I believe some treatments are as much enablers as they are "treatments."

And it appears I've pissed Geekbabe off, which was not my intention at all.

Geekbabe, I have plenty of empathy. I have been there. How much more empathy could you want me to have?

I do not disagree with helping people. I disagree with calling it a "disease" and telling people it's not their fault they can't stop. Stopping is a choice. It is as simple as that. But for some people, the most simple things are the hardest to do.

For many addicts their "shame" is deep,pervasive and existed long before they touched a drink or a drug.

The potential for addiction runs in families, it also is co-commintant with mood diosorders which also run in families.Many addicts have had horrific childhoods.Hard to pull oneself up by your boot straps when all you've ever heard was what a worthless,no good POS you were.Many addicts drink/drug to drown out those feelings, for many of them getting into treatment marks the 1st time another person actively wanted to assist them and not just exploit them sexually or use them to push drugs or to beat or to verbally abuse them.

To see another person finally understand that they personally are WORTH the effort it takes to get clean, to see people exhibiting human dignity when they didn't have it before..

treatment wotrks and in the end it helps us all.

And in those cases you are not treating the addiction so much as other issues. I have conceded that other REAL mental and physical diseases and disorders can lead a person to drugs.

 

[Geekbabe]

Amused,

Another common defensive method used by recovering addicts is the "shame" card
they walk about talking much like you do, it protects them socially as John Q Public
loves to hear former addicts denigrate themselves.

What I've told people pofessionally though is this, till you can sit with/ talk about the underlying
crap, the stuff that came BEFORE the pill,drink, needle or line, you might get clean but you
won't be living as comfortable or as full a recovery as you should.

Yes,addicts are responsible for seeing their therapists,taking meds as prescribed, getting AA/NA
sponsors and working their programs. However that does not equate with them being
responsible for becoming ill in the first place.Holding somebody accountable for their
treatment does not equal shaming them for the core of their being Ie:"no good" "scum"
"worthless"