Why do people 'feel sorry' for drug users? What ever happend to personal freaking choice and responsibility?

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gopunk

Lifer
Jul 7, 2001
29,239
2
0
Originally posted by: jvarszegi
You've drunk, but never been drunk (or at least impaired)? I flat-out don't believe you, but we have to let it slide because nothing is provable either way, and anyway it doesn't matter.

what's so hard to believe? it's not hard to drink but not get drunk... well, unless you're a lightweight i guess.

Once you took the first drink, you had impaired judgement; others just weren't so "lucky" as you.

no, others chose to drink to the point where the impairment was much more severe.

Ever have sex? Ever drive a car? Ever undertake any risky behavior at all? Of course you have. If regrettable consequences befall you, I'll empathize.

any behavior carries a certain amount of risk with it. the difference is that with sex and cars, when done properly, regrettable consequences are not the norm... i.e., they occur when something out of their control goes wrong. with drugs, regrettable consequences are the norm, i.e., they are fully expected to occur.

if i have unprotected sex with someone i know to be HIV positive, and i end up getting the disease, am i deserving of sympathy?

Addicts don't exactly swallow a pill marked "Addict Me". You're simplifying in a way that's guaranteed to discard useful elements of the truth.

no, i'm cutting out irrelevant details. these people had been repeatedly warned against taking drugs, yet they still made the choice to take drugs. that's all that is relevant for determining whether or not they get my sympathy.
 

jvarszegi

Senior member
Aug 9, 2004
721
0
0
Let's go back to drinking. So you say that when you drink, regrettable consequences are expected to happen? Why did you drink, then? If regrettable consequences are expected, and none happened, you were lucky.

Drinking is a socially accepted behavior. So is smoking pot, to a lesser degree-- and so is snorting cocaine, albeit to a still lesser degree.

If you have sex without protection and get AIDS, I will feel sorry for you. If you have sex with protection and get AIDS (condoms break 4% of the time), I will also feel sorry. Either way, you will have been engaging in behavior that didn't risk anyone but yourself (unless you're actually spreading disease), and you'll be a human being who's suffering. The degree of risk between the two behaviors is just different-- it's a different number. Refraining from all action comes closest to the perfectly safe choice.
 
May 16, 2000
13,522
0
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I have no idea, because I have NEVER felt the least bit sorry for a user. If you're that weak and pitiful you deserve EVERYTHING you get.
 

Muadib

Lifer
May 30, 2000
17,978
861
126
Originally posted by: PrinceofWands
I have no idea, because I have NEVER felt the least bit sorry for a user. If you're that weak and pitiful you deserve EVERYTHING you get.
Have you ever known someone who became a drug user? Did you throw them away? I ask this question to all of you with this opinion, including the OP.
 
May 16, 2000
13,522
0
0
Originally posted by: Muadib
Originally posted by: PrinceofWands
I have no idea, because I have NEVER felt the least bit sorry for a user. If you're that weak and pitiful you deserve EVERYTHING you get.
Have you ever known someone who became a drug user? Did you throw them away? I ask this question to all of you with this opinion, including the OP.

I have known many people who used drugs to some degree. The people who merely tried it (just a few times) I expressed my disagreement, but understanding. I'm still friends with all of them and it creates no particular friction either way.

The people who used heavily I confronted (we also had a couple interventions) to express my feelings on it. I explained my position, asked that they respect my wishes (like not ever bringing it to my home, not suggesting I try it, not offering it to others I knew, not trying to hang out with me if they were using, etc). Some agreed, some got pissed and left. The ones who left I pretty much have never spoken to again. The ones who agreed, well, it depends. One in particular agreed and then broke the rules...came to my house with drugs and I found him on the back porch smoking pot. I grabbed my staff and beat him off my property, then I called the police and gave them his address. I have no idea what happened to him...last I heard he was doing time for something or other and had abandoned his gf and kid. I tried maintaining a friendship with the rest of them, but it was pointless. They became losers and zombies for the most part. People who had always been my intellectual equals became vegetative. People with a lust for life became walking dead. They wasted their money, got kicked out of their homes, severed relationships, hurt everyone around them. Finally I'd had enough and told them one by one to get the hell away from the rest of us unless they controlled their problems. Some actually cleaned up then (at least enough to be functional), some left. A few who left came back after they got their lives under control and we speak again. My rules stand, and any who associate with me respect my wishes. I do not bite my tongue, I call a spade a spade, so people who do drugs tend not to maintain frequent contact with me...which is fine by me.

There are people who used at one point and stopped, and I didn't know...like my brother in college. He's clean now though, and responsible, so we have no particular problems about it. There are people who associate with me who occassionally (like twice a year) might take a drug. They never mention it, never come around me on it, etc, so we get along fairly well. Pretty much what it comes down to is respect for other ideas. I believe drugs should be fully legalized. I believe they should do drugs if they want. I believe they should respect my choices as well. Any who don't can't stand to be around me, those who do would rather die than break my trust. I have one friend, who's a fairly frequent user, who asked me once what I would do if he sold/gave drugs to my daughter when she grew up. I told him it was simple, I'd come see him and let him choose between suicide or me killing him. He knew I was 100% serious. He has since told me that regardless of how he views it, he'll always do his best to keep drugs away from me and mine, rather than face the consequences. That's why he's still my friend.
 

Zanix

Diamond Member
Feb 11, 2003
5,568
12
81
Originally posted by: PrinceofWands
Originally posted by: Muadib
Originally posted by: PrinceofWands
I have no idea, because I have NEVER felt the least bit sorry for a user. If you're that weak and pitiful you deserve EVERYTHING you get.
Have you ever known someone who became a drug user? Did you throw them away? I ask this question to all of you with this opinion, including the OP.

I have known many people who used drugs to some degree. The people who merely tried it (just a few times) I expressed my disagreement, but understanding. I'm still friends with all of them and it creates no particular friction either way.

The people who used heavily I confronted (we also had a couple interventions) to express my feelings on it. I explained my position, asked that they respect my wishes (like not ever bringing it to my home, not suggesting I try it, not offering it to others I knew, not trying to hang out with me if they were using, etc). Some agreed, some got pissed and left. The ones who left I pretty much have never spoken to again. The ones who agreed, well, it depends. One in particular agreed and then broke the rules...came to my house with drugs and I found him on the back porch smoking pot. I grabbed my staff and beat him off my property, then I called the police and gave them his address. I have no idea what happened to him...last I heard he was doing time for something or other and had abandoned his gf and kid. I tried maintaining a friendship with the rest of them, but it was pointless. They became losers and zombies for the most part. People who had always been my intellectual equals became vegetative. People with a lust for life became walking dead. They wasted their money, got kicked out of their homes, severed relationships, hurt everyone around them. Finally I'd had enough and told them one by one to get the hell away from the rest of us unless they controlled their problems. Some actually cleaned up then (at least enough to be functional), some left. A few who left came back after they got their lives under control and we speak again. My rules stand, and any who associate with me respect my wishes. I do not bite my tongue, I call a spade a spade, so people who do drugs tend not to maintain frequent contact with me...which is fine by me.

There are people who used at one point and stopped, and I didn't know...like my brother in college. He's clean now though, and responsible, so we have no particular problems about it. There are people who associate with me who occassionally (like twice a year) might take a drug. They never mention it, never come around me on it, etc, so we get along fairly well. Pretty much what it comes down to is respect for other ideas. I believe drugs should be fully legalized. I believe they should do drugs if they want. I believe they should respect my choices as well. Any who don't can't stand to be around me, those who do would rather die than break my trust. I have one friend, who's a fairly frequent user, who asked me once what I would do if he sold/gave drugs to my daughter when she grew up. I told him it was simple, I'd come see him and let him choose between suicide or me killing him. He knew I was 100% serious. He has since told me that regardless of how he views it, he'll always do his best to keep drugs away from me and mine, rather than face the consequences. That's why he's still my friend.


You are very serious about "drugs". I use that in quotes because it seems like you've lumped all drugs together. There are illegal, legal, prescription, ect.. just all kinds of drugs. I admire your tenacity toward how you feel; it's rare to find something that someone would feel so strongly about.

In my expirence, drug use doesn't really have any corelation between intellectual/vegie, full of life/zombie. Out of the people I know who smoke pot on a regular basis, there's some of each. Of those people, some have never tried anything harder, some have dabbled once or twice, and a couple do harder drugs.. well, every so often. With something so vast as "drugs" and "drug users", I think it's anti-understanding to overgeneralize. (yeah, I just made up a word I think)

Doing something illegal doesn't make a person "bad". Else I hope you've never sped, or jaywalked. Also, I've never known anyone to have been forced to do drugs. In the case of your friend and what would happen if he gave drugs to your daughter, I'd guess that your daughter would have to ask him before he'd provide. At least in my world, people are offered drugs. They aren't "pushed" like those commercials used to portray. I do know a couple drug pushers, my brother in particular always is trying to get me to take shots with him. (when we go out, that is) My ma too, always making me coffee when I go home.

I would just hope you understand that "drug use" is not always an "evil" thing. There's been alot of talk about addicts and self-medicating, etc.. in this thread. I know my ol man uses bud light as a work related anti-depressant. He'd just be doing something else if he didn't have bud. I don't shame him for it. Although, I wish he'd work out or at least go for a walk to counter act the effects (read: gut) of the drug.
I'd probably use alcohol too, except I like caffein better. It may be the same case with your friends and pot. I'm not sure, and I think it isn't really possible to explain their stories on these forums. People have a reason they do things; if you understand that reason, I think you understand how you could make the same choice given the circumstances.

I just kinda got the "those evil drug users" vibe from your post. We're all drug users to some extent. :)


edit: for spelling
 

Ronstang

Lifer
Jul 8, 2000
12,493
18
81
Originally posted by: Muadib
Originally posted by: PrinceofWands
I have no idea, because I have NEVER felt the least bit sorry for a user. If you're that weak and pitiful you deserve EVERYTHING you get.
Have you ever known someone who became a drug user? Did you throw them away? I ask this question to all of you with this opinion, including the OP.


Definitely. That is where I have been educated on what drugs can and will do to people. When I first learned of their "new bad choices" I did what I could to try and help them but in each case I was shunned and told I was the "problem" because they did not have one. I even had one of the young kids I used to help build hot rods get into drugs and have the audacity to tell me that I was not as "enlightened" or intelligent as he was because I thought drugs were a bad thing and I just didn't understand. I have thrown away every person I have ever known that got into drugs because they do not want to get back out of the drugs and it is not my problem to deal with the burdens of their problems when they conciously choose those problems.

In my opinion the willingness to get dragged into the drug culture speaks volumes about a person's character and I prefer not to be around those kind of people. If they can totally turn their lives around then I respect that and will give them a second chance but the first sign that they are slipping is the last time I will have anything to do with them. I have never known anyone who became a druggie that ever successfully broke that addiction completely and thus I have thrown all those people away because I don't have anything in common with those type of people and I do not want to be around them.
 

gopunk

Lifer
Jul 7, 2001
29,239
2
0
Originally posted by: jvarszegi
Let's go back to drinking. So you say that when you drink, regrettable consequences are expected to happen? Why did you drink, then? If regrettable consequences are expected, and none happened, you were lucky.

i didn't say that when i drink, regrettable consequences are expected to happen. i said that when people get *drunk*, they can be expected to make bad decisions. a sip of wine isn't going to do anything.

If you have sex without protection and get AIDS, I will feel sorry for you. If you have sex with protection and get AIDS (condoms break 4% of the time), I will also feel sorry. Either way, you will have been engaging in behavior that didn't risk anyone but yourself (unless you're actually spreading disease), and you'll be a human being who's suffering.

well, i guess you're just more sympathetic than me then. i wouldn't feel sorry in either case.

The degree of risk between the two behaviors is just different-- it's a different number. Refraining from all action comes closest to the perfectly safe choice.

it's about making the best decision with the knowledge you have. if you know something bad is going to happen and you still do it, i just can't drum up any sympathy for you. if something that you could not have reasonably expected to occur happens, then i can.
 

Sahakiel

Golden Member
Oct 19, 2001
1,746
0
86
Originally posted by: jvarszegi
Originally posted by: gopunk
Originally posted by: jvarszegi
Originally posted by: Amused
For the record, I freebased (high quality crack).

At any rate, medical detox is a great idea. But the whole concept of telling people it's not their fault and that they have a "disease" just sets them up to fail. And that is what 90+% of the programs are all about, including all 12 step farces.

Yep, I totally agree about treatment methods. However, the original post was about feeling sorry for addicts. I can't help thinking of it like this: if someone were stuck in quicksand, and were too weak to get out under their own steam, you'd try to help them. If they succumbed despite your best efforts, you'd feel sorry for them. I think that many addicts really would like to quit, but they're trapped and don't have whatever it takes (which definitely includes strength of will).

I can also understand the opposite position, though; there's a long history in our culture of thinking about screwed-up brains and thought patterns in a different moral context from screwed-up bodies. Most people don't feel sorry for serial killers, for instance.

i don't feel sorry for them at all. if you want to make the quicksand analogy, it's as if there was a BIG FRIGGIN' SIGN marking the quicksand, and they merrily dived in. i would feel sorry for them if there was no sign and they accidentally fell in, but that is simply not the case these days.

If you want to carry it even further, it's as if all their friends were happily frolicking in the quicksand, shouting "Come on in! You'll belong!", and as if alluring members of the opposite sex were hinting at good times to come if they'd just jump in. Also, please imagine spiderwebs obscuring their vision, so the quicksand seemed like safe ground.

I like the quicksand analogy. However, I think it's a bit flawed.

I think quicksand is a good analogy for addiction. Addictions come in many forms and the rate in which a person succumbs varies. I think most people have a hard time understanding why one would willingly step in quicksand despite the numers signs posted stating DANGER, QUICKSAND AHEAD, etc. because all they see are the signs. For some people, nobody posted signs, they never saw the signs, or somebody reached out and pulled them into the qucksand. Another possiblity is they don't trust the signs. I mean, think about why teenagers are more prone to vehicular accidents.
The flaw in the quicksand analogy is when none of the above applies. When a person jumps headfirst into quicksand knowing full well the consequences of such an action. I assume that those of you who do not sympathize with such a person also do not sympathize with those who commit suicide. The human mind makes decisions based on two options and two options only (philosophically). With complex problems, the mind makes a series of a-b choices until the last one determines the outcome. For suicidal people, the choice is simple: Live, or die. The reasons which drive people to choose "die" are very similar, if not the same, as those that drive people to choose addictions. It is as if the person were standing at the edge of the quicksand with a hungry alligator right behind. The choice is to jump into the quicksand or die a horrendous death. Either way is death, but the quicksand lets you live a bit longer and in some cases, let's you eat the chocolate bar floating on top.

As far as I know, most addictions are primarily a mental problem, which makes it difficult for society in general to accept. After all, it took years for the general population to accept the idea of little single-celled organisms causing problems such as the cold or ebola and that is with relatively easy visual confirmation. Heck, I'm sure a lot of people still have a hard time believing that. Mental diseases are much more difficult to conceptualize, therefore the very concept is easily dismissed by the general public. Oh, and the whole lobotomy phase doesn't exactly lend credibility to the field.
 

Zanix

Diamond Member
Feb 11, 2003
5,568
12
81
Originally posted by: Sahakiel

The human mind makes decisions based on two options and two options only (philosophically). With complex problems, the mind makes a series of a-b choices until the last one determines the outcome. For suicidal people, the choice is simple: Live, or die.

What do you mean by this? I think of an example like, "I'm thirsty" I could drink any number of things, how does that fit into an a-b two option decision? Drink or not drink?
 

Sahakiel

Golden Member
Oct 19, 2001
1,746
0
86
Originally posted by: gopunk
Originally posted by: jvarszegi
Let's go back to drinking. So you say that when you drink, regrettable consequences are expected to happen? Why did you drink, then? If regrettable consequences are expected, and none happened, you were lucky.

i didn't say that when i drink, regrettable consequences are expected to happen. i said that when people get *drunk*, they can be expected to make bad decisions. a sip of wine isn't going to do anything.

For some people, one sip of wine WILL do something. I'm not talking about confirmed alcoholics, either. Despite propaganda to the contrary, people are not born exactly the same and physiological reactions to alcohol vary from person to person. Experiments have shown that some people are born with a reduced capacity to process alcohol. In some extreme cases, one sip of wine will result in "drunken" behavior. On the other hand, one of my friends seems to drink like a fish out of water with little problem. However, after a certain point, one more sip will completely devastate him. His behavior alters noticably and he never remembers anything after that. Everyone else I know follows the "normal" pattern, becoming increasingly "tipsy" until reaching "drunk" at various rates; some much faster than others.
 

Sahakiel

Golden Member
Oct 19, 2001
1,746
0
86
Originally posted by: Zanix
Originally posted by: Sahakiel

The human mind makes decisions based on two options and two options only (philosophically). With complex problems, the mind makes a series of a-b choices until the last one determines the outcome. For suicidal people, the choice is simple: Live, or die.

What do you mean by this? I think of an example like, "I'm thirsty" I could drink any number of things, how does that fit into an a-b two option decision? Drink or not drink?

"I'm thirsty" is more like a sensory input. You are either thirsty, or you're not. However, in that respect, deciding whether or not you are thirsty is a choice. After determining you're thirsty, you'll decide should you drink something or not. Maybe you're in a movie theater and you decide not to drink or else you'll be running to the restroom in the middle of the movie. If you decide to drink, the question then becomes what do you drink? Here, you can drink any number of fluids ranging from soda to juice, water to alcohol, etc. A "complex" decision is broken down into smaller problems. Do you want to drink soda, yes or no? Should you drink juice or water? Is it too early to drink alcohol? Each sub-problem is considered until you've eliminated the other options and you're left with one drink. The final decision, drink this cup of boiled clam juice with olives and rum? After which, you will either raise your glass or come to your senses and dump the concotion down the sink.

 

Zanix

Diamond Member
Feb 11, 2003
5,568
12
81
Originally posted by: Sahakiel
Originally posted by: Zanix
Originally posted by: Sahakiel

The human mind makes decisions based on two options and two options only (philosophically). With complex problems, the mind makes a series of a-b choices until the last one determines the outcome. For suicidal people, the choice is simple: Live, or die.

What do you mean by this? I think of an example like, "I'm thirsty" I could drink any number of things, how does that fit into an a-b two option decision? Drink or not drink?

"I'm thirsty" is more like a sensory input. You are either thirsty, or you're not. However, in that respect, deciding whether or not you are thirsty is a choice. After determining you're thirsty, you'll decide should you drink something or not. Maybe you're in a movie theater and you decide not to drink or else you'll be running to the restroom in the middle of the movie. If you decide to drink, the question then becomes what do you drink? Here, you can drink any number of fluids ranging from soda to juice, water to alcohol, etc. A "complex" decision is broken down into smaller problems. Do you want to drink soda, yes or no? Should you drink juice or water? Is it too early to drink alcohol? Each sub-problem is considered until you've eliminated the other options and you're left with one drink. The final decision, drink this cup of boiled clam juice with olives and rum? After which, you will either raise your glass or come to your senses and dump the concotion down the sink.

Interesting take. Very binary! I see it though.


Psyc. major? ;)
 

bamacre

Lifer
Jul 1, 2004
21,029
2
61
The word, "drugs," shouldn't be used in threads like this without any clarification. Drugs can mean cigarettes, alcohol, pot, cocaine, heroine, LCD, crystal meth, etc., precription drugs, you name it. IIRC, roughly 15,000 people die every year from "drugs" prescibed to them by a doctor.

There are posts here calling "drug-users" homeless, losers, a drain on society. This is ignorance. I smoke cigarettes, I drink alcohol (although I'm not an alcoholic), I smoke pot. I'm not homeless, a loser, nor a drain on society, in fact I contribute a lot of money via taxes, and give $$ to a few charities.

Most people who are homeless are not drug-addicts (except maybe alcohol, or crack). "Drugs" cost money, and a habit can be very very expensive. I imagine there are not a lot of homeless cokeheads out there.

Most "drugs" are physically addictive in addition to being psychologically addictive. That means the users' body has changed as an effect of the drug use, and most time, the user will get physically ill when they don't consume their drug. Their habit has become a disease.

For someone to not feel sympathy for another person in any of these drug-related scenarios is just disappointing. People make mistakes, they make bad decisions, nobody is perfect. One of the charities to which I give money is a shelter for homeless, but they do more than give them a place to sleep. One of the things they do is offer free rehab to addicts. Indeed they helped a lot of people. And by doing so, their sympathy, their work, has helped not just these people, but all of society.

To those who have no sympathy, how has society been effected by you?
 

gopunk

Lifer
Jul 7, 2001
29,239
2
0
Originally posted by: Sahakiel
Originally posted by: gopunk
Originally posted by: jvarszegi
Let's go back to drinking. So you say that when you drink, regrettable consequences are expected to happen? Why did you drink, then? If regrettable consequences are expected, and none happened, you were lucky.

i didn't say that when i drink, regrettable consequences are expected to happen. i said that when people get *drunk*, they can be expected to make bad decisions. a sip of wine isn't going to do anything.

For some people, one sip of wine WILL do something. I'm not talking about confirmed alcoholics, either. Despite propaganda to the contrary, people are not born exactly the same and physiological reactions to alcohol vary from person to person. Experiments have shown that some people are born with a reduced capacity to process alcohol. In some extreme cases, one sip of wine will result in "drunken" behavior. On the other hand, one of my friends seems to drink like a fish out of water with little problem. However, after a certain point, one more sip will completely devastate him. His behavior alters noticably and he never remembers anything after that. Everyone else I know follows the "normal" pattern, becoming increasingly "tipsy" until reaching "drunk" at various rates; some much faster than others.

yes, i was talking about the "normal" pattern. even if somebody has the other behavior however, i can't feel sorry for them unless they managed to get addicted to drugs the first time this happened. if they know they get drunk easily and/or unpredictably, they should be extra cautious when consuming alcohol.
 

Sahakiel

Golden Member
Oct 19, 2001
1,746
0
86
Originally posted by: Zanix
Originally posted by: Sahakiel
Originally posted by: Zanix
Originally posted by: Sahakiel

The human mind makes decisions based on two options and two options only (philosophically). With complex problems, the mind makes a series of a-b choices until the last one determines the outcome. For suicidal people, the choice is simple: Live, or die.

What do you mean by this? I think of an example like, "I'm thirsty" I could drink any number of things, how does that fit into an a-b two option decision? Drink or not drink?

"I'm thirsty" is more like a sensory input. You are either thirsty, or you're not. However, in that respect, deciding whether or not you are thirsty is a choice. After determining you're thirsty, you'll decide should you drink something or not. Maybe you're in a movie theater and you decide not to drink or else you'll be running to the restroom in the middle of the movie. If you decide to drink, the question then becomes what do you drink? Here, you can drink any number of fluids ranging from soda to juice, water to alcohol, etc. A "complex" decision is broken down into smaller problems. Do you want to drink soda, yes or no? Should you drink juice or water? Is it too early to drink alcohol? Each sub-problem is considered until you've eliminated the other options and you're left with one drink. The final decision, drink this cup of boiled clam juice with olives and rum? After which, you will either raise your glass or come to your senses and dump the concotion down the sink.

Interesting take. Very binary! I see it though.


Psyc. major? ;)

Actually, no, computer engineering :laugh:
 

Zanix

Diamond Member
Feb 11, 2003
5,568
12
81
Originally posted by: Sahakiel
Originally posted by: Zanix
Originally posted by: Sahakiel
Originally posted by: Zanix
Originally posted by: Sahakiel

The human mind makes decisions based on two options and two options only (philosophically). With complex problems, the mind makes a series of a-b choices until the last one determines the outcome. For suicidal people, the choice is simple: Live, or die.

What do you mean by this? I think of an example like, "I'm thirsty" I could drink any number of things, how does that fit into an a-b two option decision? Drink or not drink?

"I'm thirsty" is more like a sensory input. You are either thirsty, or you're not. However, in that respect, deciding whether or not you are thirsty is a choice. After determining you're thirsty, you'll decide should you drink something or not. Maybe you're in a movie theater and you decide not to drink or else you'll be running to the restroom in the middle of the movie. If you decide to drink, the question then becomes what do you drink? Here, you can drink any number of fluids ranging from soda to juice, water to alcohol, etc. A "complex" decision is broken down into smaller problems. Do you want to drink soda, yes or no? Should you drink juice or water? Is it too early to drink alcohol? Each sub-problem is considered until you've eliminated the other options and you're left with one drink. The final decision, drink this cup of boiled clam juice with olives and rum? After which, you will either raise your glass or come to your senses and dump the concotion down the sink.

Interesting take. Very binary! I see it though.


Psyc. major? ;)

Actually, no, computer engineering :laugh:

Ahh... that explains all the binary :)
 
May 16, 2000
13,522
0
0
Originally posted by: Zanix
Originally posted by: PrinceofWands
Originally posted by: Muadib
Originally posted by: PrinceofWands
I have no idea, because I have NEVER felt the least bit sorry for a user. If you're that weak and pitiful you deserve EVERYTHING you get.
Have you ever known someone who became a drug user? Did you throw them away? I ask this question to all of you with this opinion, including the OP.

I have known many people who used drugs to some degree. The people who merely tried it (just a few times) I expressed my disagreement, but understanding. I'm still friends with all of them and it creates no particular friction either way.

The people who used heavily I confronted (we also had a couple interventions) to express my feelings on it. I explained my position, asked that they respect my wishes (like not ever bringing it to my home, not suggesting I try it, not offering it to others I knew, not trying to hang out with me if they were using, etc). Some agreed, some got pissed and left. The ones who left I pretty much have never spoken to again. The ones who agreed, well, it depends. One in particular agreed and then broke the rules...came to my house with drugs and I found him on the back porch smoking pot. I grabbed my staff and beat him off my property, then I called the police and gave them his address. I have no idea what happened to him...last I heard he was doing time for something or other and had abandoned his gf and kid. I tried maintaining a friendship with the rest of them, but it was pointless. They became losers and zombies for the most part. People who had always been my intellectual equals became vegetative. People with a lust for life became walking dead. They wasted their money, got kicked out of their homes, severed relationships, hurt everyone around them. Finally I'd had enough and told them one by one to get the hell away from the rest of us unless they controlled their problems. Some actually cleaned up then (at least enough to be functional), some left. A few who left came back after they got their lives under control and we speak again. My rules stand, and any who associate with me respect my wishes. I do not bite my tongue, I call a spade a spade, so people who do drugs tend not to maintain frequent contact with me...which is fine by me.

There are people who used at one point and stopped, and I didn't know...like my brother in college. He's clean now though, and responsible, so we have no particular problems about it. There are people who associate with me who occassionally (like twice a year) might take a drug. They never mention it, never come around me on it, etc, so we get along fairly well. Pretty much what it comes down to is respect for other ideas. I believe drugs should be fully legalized. I believe they should do drugs if they want. I believe they should respect my choices as well. Any who don't can't stand to be around me, those who do would rather die than break my trust. I have one friend, who's a fairly frequent user, who asked me once what I would do if he sold/gave drugs to my daughter when she grew up. I told him it was simple, I'd come see him and let him choose between suicide or me killing him. He knew I was 100% serious. He has since told me that regardless of how he views it, he'll always do his best to keep drugs away from me and mine, rather than face the consequences. That's why he's still my friend.


You are very serious about "drugs". I use that in quotes because it seems like you've lumped all drugs together. There are illegal, legal, prescription, ect.. just all kinds of drugs. I admire your tenacity toward how you feel; it's rare to find something that someone would feel so strongly about.

In my expirence, drug use doesn't really have any corelation between intellectual/vegie, full of life/zombie. Out of the people I know who smoke pot on a regular basis, there's some of each. Of those people, some have never tried anything harder, some have dabbled once or twice, and a couple do harder drugs.. well, every so often. With something so vast as "drugs" and "drug users", I think it's anti-understanding to overgeneralize. (yeah, I just made up a word I think)

Doing something illegal doesn't make a person "bad". Else I hope you've never sped, or jaywalked. Also, I've never known anyone to have been forced to do drugs. In the case of your friend and what would happen if he gave drugs to your daughter, I'd guess that your daughter would have to ask him before he'd provide. At least in my world, people are offered drugs. They aren't "pushed" like those commercials used to portray. I do know a couple drug pushers, my brother in particular always is trying to get me to take shots with him. (when we go out, that is) My ma too, always making me coffee when I go home.

I would just hope you understand that "drug use" is not always an "evil" thing. There's been alot of talk about addicts and self-medicating, etc.. in this thread. I know my ol man uses bud light as a work related anti-depressant. He'd just be doing something else if he didn't have bud. I don't shame him for it. Although, I wish he'd work out or at least go for a walk to counter act the effects (read: gut) of the drug.
I'd probably use alcohol too, except I like caffein better. It may be the same case with your friends and pot. I'm not sure, and I think it isn't really possible to explain their stories on these forums. People have a reason they do things; if you understand that reason, I think you understand how you could make the same choice given the circumstances.

I just kinda got the "those evil drug users" vibe from your post. We're all drug users to some extent. :)


edit: for spelling



I hear ya. I've never had any thought for the lawfulness of it, since I think it should be legalized completely. I also don't see 'it' as 'evil'. I DO see people who are seriously addicted as pitiable though. Not evil, just pitiable. Now, at the point where you harm another human being because you've allowed yourself to go that out of control, THEN you're evil in my book.

As for the effects of drug use: I have known many people that are fully functional, even intelligent, who do drugs of various types (mostly by drug use I mean marijuana since it's the most common in my life, but there are others as well). However, I don't know a single person who has been seriously into drugs (we're talking 4 or 5 days out of 7 serious) that is AS quick minded as they were before doing them the first time. My friend Nathan went from being an innocent, caring, poetic wonderful person to being a major piece of crap. I mean EXACTLY the kind of scum you see them portray on tv. I think his was because he was doing acid and coke at 12 though, not the softer stuff. I have another friend that used to be SO fast with his mental stuff...he could take me in chess 7 games out of 10 for years. He got heavy into pot (just pot mind you, with maybe 1 or 2 experiments otherwise) and a year later he couldn't come up with a comeback to save his life, couldn't even present a challenge in chess, and quite frankly not that impressive in any mental category. He was paranoid, evasive, short-tempered...it was like a whole different person. I'm not saying it's a 1:1 ratio, only that in my experience drug use destroys people.

As to being pushed: I'm glad you've never seen a pushy druggie, but they're out there. Trust me. Case in point: I'm at a friends house when I was about 13 or so. He did drugs, but not around me. His sister was up in her room with some friends and one of them came into my friends room with a bong. He offered it to my friend who said 'not right now thanks' then he offered it to me and I said 'not my thing'. So he laughs and says something like 'what's the matter, can't handle having fun ya geek'. My friend then told him to leave. So the guy takes a big hit and blows it in my face. Now, that's the kind of pushy bastards that I've had to deal with. If you're curious what happened by the way, my friend grabbed him and threw him out of his second story bedroom window...which pretty much ended the party because his sister had to take him to the hospital. Like I said, my friends respected my decisions. There were others, some of them even from people I called friend. My own opinion is that their drug use stemmed from an internal lack of something, probably self-esteem, and picking on non-drug users was a psychological lashing out stemming from that struggle. But that's just a thought.

You also have to understand that I've worked in an ER, and with criminals my entire life. I have been in literally HUNDREDS of fights with drugged out whackos. I've held their hands as they've died too. I've stroked the hair out of the eyes of a lovely 14 year old girl who decided to try LSD just once, and ended up pretty much fried. You could see she was there, behind her eyes somewhere, but she never did get back out. I've looked down the sights of my gun at them, and prayed there was enough rationality left in them to allow them to do what I told them to so I wouldn't be forced to kill them. My experience with drugs has not been limited to 'I know a guy who heard a story' type articles. I'm very careful in forming my opinions.

I'm not saying I'm perfect. I drink caffeine in beverages. I like sugary foods. I also drink. However, with my drinking: I have never and would never, EVER drive, or in any way put myself into a situation where my actions could harm another. EVER. Alcohol allows you that control, at least if you have strong enough will/ideals. Alcohols damage to the body is fairly slow, and seldom permanent if mild enough (with the exception of brain cell degeneration which is not a serious factor in mild drinking). All I'm saying is, there's a HUGE difference between drinking once a month responsibly, and smoking pot 5 days a week with the weekends reserved for heroin, meth and lsd.
 
May 16, 2000
13,522
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Originally posted by: bamacre
The word, "drugs," shouldn't be used in threads like this without any clarification. Drugs can mean cigarettes, alcohol, pot, cocaine, heroine, LCD, crystal meth, etc., precription drugs, you name it. IIRC, roughly 15,000 people die every year from "drugs" prescibed to them by a doctor.

There are posts here calling "drug-users" homeless, losers, a drain on society. This is ignorance. I smoke cigarettes, I drink alcohol (although I'm not an alcoholic), I smoke pot. I'm not homeless, a loser, nor a drain on society, in fact I contribute a lot of money via taxes, and give $$ to a few charities.

Most people who are homeless are not drug-addicts (except maybe alcohol, or crack). "Drugs" cost money, and a habit can be very very expensive. I imagine there are not a lot of homeless cokeheads out there.

Most "drugs" are physically addictive in addition to being psychologically addictive. That means the users' body has changed as an effect of the drug use, and most time, the user will get physically ill when they don't consume their drug. Their habit has become a disease.

For someone to not feel sympathy for another person in any of these drug-related scenarios is just disappointing. People make mistakes, they make bad decisions, nobody is perfect. One of the charities to which I give money is a shelter for homeless, but they do more than give them a place to sleep. One of the things they do is offer free rehab to addicts. Indeed they helped a lot of people. And by doing so, their sympathy, their work, has helped not just these people, but all of society.

To those who have no sympathy, how has society been effected by you?

It's one thing to give to charities, and volunteer in your community (which I do). It's another to think that someone who robs others at knife point for the money to get high deserves anything but a bullet in the head (which I would also gladly do).

I'm willing to help drug users, with my time, my money, you name it. But I'm not going to 'feel sorry' for them. They made a choice. If they choose to give it up, I'd be proud of them...but I'm not ever going to feel sorry for someone for making a deliberate choice.
 

bamacre

Lifer
Jul 1, 2004
21,029
2
61
Originally posted by: PrinceofWands
Originally posted by: bamacre
The word, "drugs," shouldn't be used in threads like this without any clarification. Drugs can mean cigarettes, alcohol, pot, cocaine, heroine, LCD, crystal meth, etc., precription drugs, you name it. IIRC, roughly 15,000 people die every year from "drugs" prescibed to them by a doctor.

There are posts here calling "drug-users" homeless, losers, a drain on society. This is ignorance. I smoke cigarettes, I drink alcohol (although I'm not an alcoholic), I smoke pot. I'm not homeless, a loser, nor a drain on society, in fact I contribute a lot of money via taxes, and give $$ to a few charities.

Most people who are homeless are not drug-addicts (except maybe alcohol, or crack). "Drugs" cost money, and a habit can be very very expensive. I imagine there are not a lot of homeless cokeheads out there.

Most "drugs" are physically addictive in addition to being psychologically addictive. That means the users' body has changed as an effect of the drug use, and most time, the user will get physically ill when they don't consume their drug. Their habit has become a disease.

For someone to not feel sympathy for another person in any of these drug-related scenarios is just disappointing. People make mistakes, they make bad decisions, nobody is perfect. One of the charities to which I give money is a shelter for homeless, but they do more than give them a place to sleep. One of the things they do is offer free rehab to addicts. Indeed they helped a lot of people. And by doing so, their sympathy, their work, has helped not just these people, but all of society.

To those who have no sympathy, how has society been effected by you?

It's one thing to give to charities, and volunteer in your community (which I do). It's another to think that someone who robs others at knife point for the money to get high deserves anything but a bullet in the head (which I would also gladly do).

I'm willing to help drug users, with my time, my money, you name it. But I'm not going to 'feel sorry' for them. They made a choice. If they choose to give it up, I'd be proud of them...but I'm not ever going to feel sorry for someone for making a deliberate choice.

Well, if you offer your time and money to help, then you are, in fact, feeling sorry for them.
 
May 16, 2000
13,522
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Originally posted by: bamacre
Originally posted by: PrinceofWands
Originally posted by: bamacre
The word, "drugs," shouldn't be used in threads like this without any clarification. Drugs can mean cigarettes, alcohol, pot, cocaine, heroine, LCD, crystal meth, etc., precription drugs, you name it. IIRC, roughly 15,000 people die every year from "drugs" prescibed to them by a doctor.

There are posts here calling "drug-users" homeless, losers, a drain on society. This is ignorance. I smoke cigarettes, I drink alcohol (although I'm not an alcoholic), I smoke pot. I'm not homeless, a loser, nor a drain on society, in fact I contribute a lot of money via taxes, and give $$ to a few charities.

Most people who are homeless are not drug-addicts (except maybe alcohol, or crack). "Drugs" cost money, and a habit can be very very expensive. I imagine there are not a lot of homeless cokeheads out there.

Most "drugs" are physically addictive in addition to being psychologically addictive. That means the users' body has changed as an effect of the drug use, and most time, the user will get physically ill when they don't consume their drug. Their habit has become a disease.

For someone to not feel sympathy for another person in any of these drug-related scenarios is just disappointing. People make mistakes, they make bad decisions, nobody is perfect. One of the charities to which I give money is a shelter for homeless, but they do more than give them a place to sleep. One of the things they do is offer free rehab to addicts. Indeed they helped a lot of people. And by doing so, their sympathy, their work, has helped not just these people, but all of society.

To those who have no sympathy, how has society been effected by you?

It's one thing to give to charities, and volunteer in your community (which I do). It's another to think that someone who robs others at knife point for the money to get high deserves anything but a bullet in the head (which I would also gladly do).

I'm willing to help drug users, with my time, my money, you name it. But I'm not going to 'feel sorry' for them. They made a choice. If they choose to give it up, I'd be proud of them...but I'm not ever going to feel sorry for someone for making a deliberate choice.

Well, if you offer your time and money to help, then you are, in fact, feeling sorry for them.

No it's not, it's being willing to help them stop doing something that stupid. To me, feeling sorry for someone is something you do when the person is hurting or in trouble and it's not their fault. Drug use IS there fault, therefore I don't feel sorry for them.

Look at it this way: my kid trips on a step because she's going thru a growth spurt...I feel sorry for her. My kid throws a tantrum and kicks her dresser breaking her toe. I still take her to the doctor to get it set, but I probably call her a dumba$$ on the way...I certainly don't feel sorry for her.
 

thomsbrain

Lifer
Dec 4, 2001
18,148
1
0
it's very simply.

huge numbers of medical professionals believe drug addiction is not a choice. not all of them, by a long shot. it is a hotly debated topic. but there are many who believe this, and they have very well-stated cases for it. personally i sit on the fence, although i have found that the "not a choice" camp's arguments are weaker.
 
May 16, 2000
13,522
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Originally posted by: thomsbrain
it's very simply.

huge numbers of medical professionals believe drug addiction is not a choice. not all of them, by a long shot. it is a hotly debated topic. but there are many who believe this, and they have very well-stated cases for it. personally i sit on the fence, although i have found that the "not a choice" camp's arguments are weaker.

But that's irrelevant. The 'choice' is made the first time someone does a drug...rather or not they're genetically predisposed towards addiction doesn't matter. Knowing that it's possible, they are forwarned. If they choose to go ahead and roll the dice, they are responsible for what comes of it.
 

TheNiceGuy

Golden Member
Dec 23, 2004
1,569
3
81
I don't feel sorry for people just cause theyre drug addicts. But a lot of those guys were dealt a pretty shiity hand to start the game of life with. I was a prime risk myself.
Empathy.
Like a blind person trying to 'feel' color. Until you experience it, you just can't.
 

Gurck

Banned
Mar 16, 2004
12,963
1
0
Most users aren't abusers, and most abusers aren't criminals... I certainly feel sorry for people stigmatized and often jailed for doing nothing other than putting chemicals into their system.