Why do people 'feel sorry' for drug users? What ever happend to personal freaking choice and responsibility?

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jvarszegi

Senior member
Aug 9, 2004
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Originally posted by: Geekbabe
Amused,

Another common defensive method used by recovering addicts is the "shame" card
they walk about talking much like you do, it protects them socially as John Q Public
loves to hear former addicts denigrate themselves.

What I've told people pofessionally though is this, till you can sit with/ talk about the underlying
crap, the stuff that came BEFORE the pill,drink, needle or line, you might get clean but you
won't be living as comfortable or as full a recovery as you should.

Yes,addicts are responsible for seeing their therapists,taking meds as prescribed, getting AA/NA
sponsors and working their programs. However that does not equate with them being responsible for becoming ill in the first place.

Great post. The "shame card"-- never thought about it before, but it fits perfectly with what I know of people in general. It could even be an attempt to pre-apologize for an upcoming lapse.
 

Geekbabe

Moderator Emeritus<br>Elite Member
Oct 16, 1999
32,199
2,452
126
www.theshoppinqueen.com
Originally posted by: jvarszegi
Originally posted by: Geekbabe
Amused,

Another common defensive method used by recovering addicts is the "shame" card
they walk about talking much like you do, it protects them socially as John Q Public
loves to hear former addicts denigrate themselves.

What I've told people pofessionally though is this, till you can sit with/ talk about the underlying
crap, the stuff that came BEFORE the pill,drink, needle or line, you might get clean but you
won't be living as comfortable or as full a recovery as you should.

Yes,addicts are responsible for seeing their therapists,taking meds as prescribed, getting AA/NA
sponsors and working their programs. However that does not equate with them being responsible for becoming ill in the first place.

Great post. The "shame card"-- never thought about it before, but it fits perfectly with what I know of people in general. It could even be an attempt to pre-apologize for an upcoming lapse.



Ever heard the phrase "on a dry drunk" ?
imho, most addicts are truly dually diagnosed and cannot recover fully with out both AA/NA type services as well as therapy/counseling and the judcious use of medications when indicated.
 

jvarszegi

Senior member
Aug 9, 2004
721
0
0
Originally posted by: Geekbabe
Ever heard the phrase "on a dry drunk" ?

Nope. I understand it must mean the same sort of thing, but where does it come from? Just the fact that it's a fake recovery, with a dry spell in the middle of a drinking spell instead of the other way around? It's a great phrase!
 

Geekbabe

Moderator Emeritus<br>Elite Member
Oct 16, 1999
32,199
2,452
126
www.theshoppinqueen.com
Originally posted by: jvarszegi
Originally posted by: Geekbabe
Ever heard the phrase "on a dry drunk" ?

Nope. I understand it must mean the same sort of thing, but where does it come from? Just the fact that it's a fake recovery, with a dry spell in the middle of a drinking spell instead of the other way around? It's a great phrase!

It's a real recovery in the sense that the addict is making a real effort to avoid using.
What isn't usually happening though is therapy/treatment of underlying mood disorders
counseling to talk about/proccess painful events and memories leading up to to start
of the addiction and importantly to talk about events that happened during the addiction.

Many people sober up and see their lives in a stark clarity that leads them to utter despair
and hopelessness, treatment helps get em thru that passage without it they're sober but internally filled with depression and rage.
 

gopunk

Lifer
Jul 7, 2001
29,239
2
0
Originally posted by: jvarszegi
Originally posted by: Amused
For the record, I freebased (high quality crack).

At any rate, medical detox is a great idea. But the whole concept of telling people it's not their fault and that they have a "disease" just sets them up to fail. And that is what 90+% of the programs are all about, including all 12 step farces.

Yep, I totally agree about treatment methods. However, the original post was about feeling sorry for addicts. I can't help thinking of it like this: if someone were stuck in quicksand, and were too weak to get out under their own steam, you'd try to help them. If they succumbed despite your best efforts, you'd feel sorry for them. I think that many addicts really would like to quit, but they're trapped and don't have whatever it takes (which definitely includes strength of will).

I can also understand the opposite position, though; there's a long history in our culture of thinking about screwed-up brains and thought patterns in a different moral context from screwed-up bodies. Most people don't feel sorry for serial killers, for instance.

i don't feel sorry for them at all. if you want to make the quicksand analogy, it's as if there was a BIG FRIGGIN' SIGN marking the quicksand, and they merrily dived in. i would feel sorry for them if there was no sign and they accidentally fell in, but that is simply not the case these days.
 

jvarszegi

Senior member
Aug 9, 2004
721
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Originally posted by: gopunk
Originally posted by: jvarszegi
Originally posted by: Amused
For the record, I freebased (high quality crack).

At any rate, medical detox is a great idea. But the whole concept of telling people it's not their fault and that they have a "disease" just sets them up to fail. And that is what 90+% of the programs are all about, including all 12 step farces.

Yep, I totally agree about treatment methods. However, the original post was about feeling sorry for addicts. I can't help thinking of it like this: if someone were stuck in quicksand, and were too weak to get out under their own steam, you'd try to help them. If they succumbed despite your best efforts, you'd feel sorry for them. I think that many addicts really would like to quit, but they're trapped and don't have whatever it takes (which definitely includes strength of will).

I can also understand the opposite position, though; there's a long history in our culture of thinking about screwed-up brains and thought patterns in a different moral context from screwed-up bodies. Most people don't feel sorry for serial killers, for instance.

i don't feel sorry for them at all. if you want to make the quicksand analogy, it's as if there was a BIG FRIGGIN' SIGN marking the quicksand, and they merrily dived in. i would feel sorry for them if there was no sign and they accidentally fell in, but that is simply not the case these days.

If you want to carry it even further, it's as if all their friends were happily frolicking in the quicksand, shouting "Come on in! You'll belong!", and as if alluring members of the opposite sex were hinting at good times to come if they'd just jump in. Also, please imagine spiderwebs obscuring their vision, so the quicksand seemed like safe ground.
 

IGBT

Lifer
Jul 16, 2001
17,960
140
106
..hindsight teaches us that empathy and compassion only fuel the users problem. It's natural to want to help a friend or family member..but the fact of the matter is rehab has a very high failure rate and most of the time druggies return to established brain pathways and end up back in the drug rut. The full burden of successful change is theirs to bare. Return to work rehabers are subject to random drug testing a few times a week where I work..but dang few of them are still on the job a year later..they nearly always fail..even if drugs were legalized..safety sensitive drug testing will continue. The failed paradigm of recreating with intoxication is the root problem and a shure road to failure and job/family loss.
 

Red Dawn

Elite Member
Jun 4, 2001
57,529
3
0
Originally posted by: IGBT
..hindsight teaches us that empathy and compassion only fuel the users problem. It's natural to want to help a friend or family member..but the fact of the matter is rehab has a very high failure rate and most of the time druggies return to established brain pathways and end up back in the drug rut. The full burden of successful change is theirs to bare. Return to work rehabers are subject to random drug testing a few times a week where I work..but dang few of them are still on the job a year later..they nearly always fail..even if drugs were legalized..safety sensitive drug testing will continue. The failed paradigm of recreating with intoxication is the root problem and a shure road to failure and job/family loss.
So you believe that if we treated them like pariahs they would have a better chance of recovery?
 

gopunk

Lifer
Jul 7, 2001
29,239
2
0
Originally posted by: jvarszegi
Originally posted by: gopunk
Originally posted by: jvarszegi
Originally posted by: Amused
For the record, I freebased (high quality crack).

At any rate, medical detox is a great idea. But the whole concept of telling people it's not their fault and that they have a "disease" just sets them up to fail. And that is what 90+% of the programs are all about, including all 12 step farces.

Yep, I totally agree about treatment methods. However, the original post was about feeling sorry for addicts. I can't help thinking of it like this: if someone were stuck in quicksand, and were too weak to get out under their own steam, you'd try to help them. If they succumbed despite your best efforts, you'd feel sorry for them. I think that many addicts really would like to quit, but they're trapped and don't have whatever it takes (which definitely includes strength of will).

I can also understand the opposite position, though; there's a long history in our culture of thinking about screwed-up brains and thought patterns in a different moral context from screwed-up bodies. Most people don't feel sorry for serial killers, for instance.

i don't feel sorry for them at all. if you want to make the quicksand analogy, it's as if there was a BIG FRIGGIN' SIGN marking the quicksand, and they merrily dived in. i would feel sorry for them if there was no sign and they accidentally fell in, but that is simply not the case these days.

If you want to carry it even further, it's as if all their friends were happily frolicking in the quicksand, shouting "Come on in! You'll belong!", and as if alluring members of the opposite sex were hinting at good times to come if they'd just jump in. Also, please imagine spiderwebs obscuring their vision, so the quicksand seemed like safe ground.

i don't feel sorry for them, regardless of how many alluring members of the opposite sex were in the quicksand. they still know that is quicksand and they still choose to jump in, despite being repeatedly warned of the dangers involved. and wth are the spiderwebs?
 

Looney

Lifer
Jun 13, 2000
21,938
5
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Originally posted by: episodic

Mind you I have no problem with someone that is such a mild user of something that it does not affect his/her ability to work or being a meaningful member of society. My rant is geared more to the types that can't function in society due to their 'problem'. Noone got themselves there but themselves. Don't give me the 'but they are poor' thing. Lots of ppl are poor and don't become drug users.

So? Why can't you be sympathetic towards them even if you understood that they brought it to themselves? Nobody is perfect. Everybody makes mistakes, theirs are just worst than others.
 

gopunk

Lifer
Jul 7, 2001
29,239
2
0
Originally posted by: Hardcore
Originally posted by: episodic

Mind you I have no problem with someone that is such a mild user of something that it does not affect his/her ability to work or being a meaningful member of society. My rant is geared more to the types that can't function in society due to their 'problem'. Noone got themselves there but themselves. Don't give me the 'but they are poor' thing. Lots of ppl are poor and don't become drug users.

So? Why can't you be sympathetic towards them even if you understood that they brought it to themselves? Nobody is perfect. Everybody makes mistakes, theirs are just worst than others.

it's a little different than a simple mistake, like forgetting your keys or something, because since they are little kids people are repeatedly telling them that drugs are bad for them. so it's not like they just made a mistake, they willingly, consciously chose to do drugs.

i would have sympathy if we didn't have the education programs we do, but the amount of anti-drug stuff out there is staggering.
 

IGBT

Lifer
Jul 16, 2001
17,960
140
106

..I honestly don't know what the answer is..but I had to protect my family and self from a problem that wouldn't meet me half way in an effort to change. And at work I've had to remove people from safety sensitive positions of responsibility because they failed a return to work test or were involved in a post accident test failure..so what do you do? They are givin an oppertunity to change..return to work..come back home..and they burn you again. Once you go thru that a few times..to protect the innocent and promote a safe work atmosphere for responsible productive employees..your going to cut your losses and get rid of them or change the locks in your home. I tried..gawd knows I tried..but the established drug pathways were to strong to resist. Like I said I honestly don't know what the answer is..but I won't tollerate personal abuse by a family member or employee.











Red Dawn
Elite Member



So you believe that if we treated them like pariahs they would have a better chance of recovery?
 

Red Dawn

Elite Member
Jun 4, 2001
57,529
3
0
Originally posted by: IGBT

..I honestly don't know what the answer is..but I had to protect my family and self from a problem that wouldn't meet me half way in an effort to change. And at work I've had to remove people from safety sensitive positions of responsibility because they failed a return to work test or were involved in a post accident test failure..so what do you do? They are givin an oppertunity to change..return to work..come back home..and they burn you again. Once you go thru that a few times..to protect the innocent and promote a safe work atmosphere for responsible productive employees..your going to cut your losses and get rid of them or change the locks in your home. I tried..gawd knows I tried..but the established drug pathways were to strong to resist. Like I said I honestly don't know what the answer is..but I won't tollerate personal abuse by a family member or employee.











Red Dawn
Elite Member



So you believe that if we treated them like pariahs they would have a better chance of recovery?
You have a problem with my post and me being an Elite Member posting it? WTF?

 

Red Dawn

Elite Member
Jun 4, 2001
57,529
3
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Originally posted by: IGBT
..no..where did I error..I was responding to your post..:confused:
OK I see.

I would like to add that I fully understand where you are coming from. I've known individuals who became addicts that were worthless POS and that no amount of treatment would make a bit of difference.

 

jvarszegi

Senior member
Aug 9, 2004
721
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0
Originally posted by: gopunk
i don't feel sorry for them, regardless of how many alluring members of the opposite sex were in the quicksand. they still know that is quicksand and they still choose to jump in, despite being repeatedly warned of the dangers involved. and wth are the spiderwebs?

I don't expect you to change your opinion; I'm just playing your game. The spiderwebs represent the impairment of alcohol, etc.-- good times. I hear that lots of addicts try drugs for the first time at parties, where they're presumably already in an altered state. Alcohol removes lots of inhibitions.

I was thinking about this a little while ago; I was wondering why pot is called "the gateway drug" instead of alcohol. I came to the conclusion that it has to do with what's acceptable to society. Drinking is generally accepted in this country, but once you've smoked your first joint you officially become a drug user. I can imagine that someone might see themselves slipping into a different role if they smoke pot a few times, in a way that's different from what happens when you drink (although drinking can have a worse impact on your life).

If you've ever made a single normally-uncharacteristic decision when you were drunk or high, you can understand where I'm coming from; I'm not worrying about forcing you to admit it. If you haven't, you are a truly unusual person.
 

Geekbabe

Moderator Emeritus<br>Elite Member
Oct 16, 1999
32,199
2,452
126
www.theshoppinqueen.com
Originally posted by: IGBT
..hindsight teaches us that empathy and compassion only fuel the users problem. It's natural to want to help a friend or family member..but the fact of the matter is rehab has a very high failure rate and most of the time druggies return to established brain pathways and end up back in the drug rut. The full burden of successful change is theirs to bare. Return to work rehabers are subject to random drug testing a few times a week where I work..but dang few of them are still on the job a year later..they nearly always fail..even if drugs were legalized..safety sensitive drug testing will continue. The failed paradigm of recreating with intoxication is the root problem and a shure road to failure and job/family loss.

You can hold a person accountable for their recovery without denigrating and debasing them as human beings.It is possible to have empathy and compassion but retain the ability to set limits and boundaries.
 

Red Dawn

Elite Member
Jun 4, 2001
57,529
3
0
Originally posted by: Geekbabe
Originally posted by: IGBT
..hindsight teaches us that empathy and compassion only fuel the users problem. It's natural to want to help a friend or family member..but the fact of the matter is rehab has a very high failure rate and most of the time druggies return to established brain pathways and end up back in the drug rut. The full burden of successful change is theirs to bare. Return to work rehabers are subject to random drug testing a few times a week where I work..but dang few of them are still on the job a year later..they nearly always fail..even if drugs were legalized..safety sensitive drug testing will continue. The failed paradigm of recreating with intoxication is the root problem and a shure road to failure and job/family loss.

You can hold a person accountable for their recovery without denigrating and debasing them as human beings.It is possible to have empathy and compassion but retain the ability to set limits and boundaries.
Yeah limit them from being able to access any thing of yours that is of value and set the boundry at 100 yards from you place of residence:)

 

episodic

Lifer
Feb 7, 2004
11,088
2
81
Originally posted by: Geekbabe
Originally posted by: IGBT
..hindsight teaches us that empathy and compassion only fuel the users problem. It's natural to want to help a friend or family member..but the fact of the matter is rehab has a very high failure rate and most of the time druggies return to established brain pathways and end up back in the drug rut. The full burden of successful change is theirs to bare. Return to work rehabers are subject to random drug testing a few times a week where I work..but dang few of them are still on the job a year later..they nearly always fail..even if drugs were legalized..safety sensitive drug testing will continue. The failed paradigm of recreating with intoxication is the root problem and a shure road to failure and job/family loss.

You can hold a person accountable for their recovery without denigrating and debasing them as human beings.It is possible to have empathy and compassion but retain the ability to set limits and boundaries.



We don't have to, they ususally do that to themselves (the denigration and debasing that is).
 

gopunk

Lifer
Jul 7, 2001
29,239
2
0
Originally posted by: jvarszegi
Originally posted by: gopunk
i don't feel sorry for them, regardless of how many alluring members of the opposite sex were in the quicksand. they still know that is quicksand and they still choose to jump in, despite being repeatedly warned of the dangers involved. and wth are the spiderwebs?

I don't expect you to change your opinion; I'm just playing your game. The spiderwebs represent the impairment of alcohol, etc.-- good times. I hear that lots of addicts try drugs for the first time at parties, where they're presumably already in an altered state. Alcohol removes lots of inhibitions.

people know that getting drunk leads to them doing stupid things, so i don't think they can pawn off responsibility on that.
 

jvarszegi

Senior member
Aug 9, 2004
721
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Originally posted by: gopunk
Originally posted by: jvarszegi
Originally posted by: gopunk
i don't feel sorry for them, regardless of how many alluring members of the opposite sex were in the quicksand. they still know that is quicksand and they still choose to jump in, despite being repeatedly warned of the dangers involved. and wth are the spiderwebs?

I don't expect you to change your opinion; I'm just playing your game. The spiderwebs represent the impairment of alcohol, etc.-- good times. I hear that lots of addicts try drugs for the first time at parties, where they're presumably already in an altered state. Alcohol removes lots of inhibitions.

people know that getting drunk leads to them doing stupid things, so i don't think they can pawn off responsibility on that.

So basically, you've never taken a drink, I take it. And you've never smoked pot, hmm? Well, I say, "Good for you!" Otherwise, you might've been snared into behavior that was much more damaging than it seemed at first. Have you ever made a bad decision, of any sort?

I was going to leave it at that, but I think I'll just forestall any statements like "I may have, but at least I don't whine about it" by predicting it in advance. I think you're missing the point that addicts can be unhappy people who made bad choices, may (and probably do) know it, but still can't escape the consequences. And trying that first buzz can be awfully easy. If you really can't understand this concept, I'll quit trying to convince you.

Executing a plan to quit addictive behavior is always more difficult than beginning the bad behavior in the first place. That's what an addiction is all about-- it's something that's very, very hard to quit. It's a trap. Brilliant, educated, well-meaning people fall into the trap; it's that easy.
 

gopunk

Lifer
Jul 7, 2001
29,239
2
0
Originally posted by: jvarszegi
Originally posted by: gopunk
Originally posted by: jvarszegi
Originally posted by: gopunk
i don't feel sorry for them, regardless of how many alluring members of the opposite sex were in the quicksand. they still know that is quicksand and they still choose to jump in, despite being repeatedly warned of the dangers involved. and wth are the spiderwebs?

I don't expect you to change your opinion; I'm just playing your game. The spiderwebs represent the impairment of alcohol, etc.-- good times. I hear that lots of addicts try drugs for the first time at parties, where they're presumably already in an altered state. Alcohol removes lots of inhibitions.

people know that getting drunk leads to them doing stupid things, so i don't think they can pawn off responsibility on that.

So basically, you've never taken a drink, I take it. And you've never smoked pot, hmm? Well, I say, "Good for you!" Otherwise, you might've been snared into behavior that was much more damaging than it seemed at first. Have you ever made a bad decision, of any sort?

i've drank, just never been drunk. never smoke pot. yes, i've made bad decisions. but never after having being educated about the consequences for several years in advance.

I was going to leave it at that, but I think I'll just forestall any statements like "I may have, but at least I don't whine about it" by predicting it in advance. I think you're missing the point that addicts can be unhappy people who made bad choices, may (and probably do) know it, but still can't escape the consequences. And trying that first buzz can be awfully easy. If you really can't understand this concept, I'll quit trying to convince you.

just because i don't agree with you doesn't mean i'm missing any concept. i know it's easy, but that doesn't mean it isn't completely their educated choice and, therefore, fault. it's easy to slack off and skip all your classes too, doesn't mean you would deserve my sympathy when you fail them.

Executing a plan to quit addictive behavior is always more difficult than beginning the bad behavior in the first place. That's what an addiction is all about-- it's something that's very, very hard to quit. It's a trap. Brilliant, educated, well-meaning people fall into the trap; it's that easy.

i don't disagree with any of this, it just doesn't have anything to do with why i don't feel sorry for them. it doesn't change the fact that they willingly put themselves in that situation, with full knowledge of what they were doing.
 

jvarszegi

Senior member
Aug 9, 2004
721
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You've drunk, but never been drunk (or at least impaired)? I flat-out don't believe you, but we have to let it slide because nothing is provable either way, and anyway it doesn't matter. Once you took the first drink, you had impaired judgement; others just weren't so "lucky" as you. Ever have sex? Ever drive a car? Ever undertake any risky behavior at all? Of course you have. If regrettable consequences befall you, I'll empathize.

Addicts don't exactly swallow a pill marked "Addict Me". You're simplifying in a way that's guaranteed to discard useful elements of the truth.
 

yukichigai

Diamond Member
Apr 23, 2003
6,404
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Because with most drugs, when the user wants to quit it's nay unto impossible due to horrid withdrawl symptoms, etc. It doesn't mean we don't think they made a bad decision by doing drugs in the first place, but I wouldn't wish heroin withdrawl on anyone.